Trinity

[B-A-C]

SOME Trinitarians, (some know better) claim Genesis 1:26 proves a Trinity.

The most likely and logical reason God said, "let us" is because He was speaking to His angels in the creation process

KJV: Gen 1:26; "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

I did not say man was created in the image of angels, and I did not say we look like angels.

You are very much like Sue. You misquote and misconstrue what I say. If your just going to misrepresent what I say, I know the motivation, and I don't want to deal with phony con-artist.

How else was I supposed to construe this?

 

[saginon]

KJV: Gen 1:26; "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:



How else was I supposed to construe this?

See you later big guy, dear 'ol dad' warned me about you - and Sue!

[EDIT: please watch your use of this forum, thank you - Moderator]

 

[newname]

The trinity is completely illogical. In one breath they say, "Jesus is God, God is Jesus, Jesus is the holy spirit, The holy spirit is Jesus, the holy spirit is God." Then in the very next breath they say, "Jesus is not God, God is not Jesus, Jesus is not the holy spirit, The holy spirit is not Jesus, the holy spirit is not God."

Lol.
No they say Jesus is not the Father etc. 3 circles that overlap in the middle. If you just draw all 3 circles over each other there's no problem.
They turn it around.
YHWH is Father, YHWH is Son, YHWH is Holy Spirit.
YHWH means I am, not We are.
I am Father. I am Son/ I am salvation, I am Holy Spirit.
Jesus is called eternal Father in Isaiah 9:6, but they say He is not the Father. There the Trinity explanation goes wrong. They just make up some explanation for that. I stick with Michael Brown's explanation. Much easier to understand. God makes Himself known to man as Jesus.

 

[saginon]

Lol.
No they say Jesus is not the Father etc. 3 circles that overlap in the middle. If you just draw all 3 circles over each other there's no problem.
They turn it around.
YHWH is Father, YHWH is Son, YHWH is Holy Spirit.
YHWH means I am, not We are.
I am Father. I am Son/ I am salvation, I am Holy Spirit.
Jesus is called eternal Father in Isaiah 9:6, but they say He is not the Father. There the Trinity explanation goes wrong. They just make up some explanation for that. I stick with Michael Brown's explanation. Much easier to understand. God makes Himself known to man as Jesus.

I could care less if someone believes in the Trinity - or not. My problem with it is the condemnation Trinitarians attach to those of us who reject it. They condemn people over a doctrine that is clearly unscriptural, because by doing so they prop up their false doctrine and by condemning others, they build themselves up. That's what the world does. The devils love it when one Church or one Christian demonizes and condemns another. It destroys the message of Christ.

 

[newname]

I could care less if someone believes in the Trinity - or not. My problem with it is the condemnation Trinitarians attach to those of us who reject it. They condemn people over a doctrine that is clearly unscriptural, because by doing so they prop up their false doctrine and by condemning others, they build themselves up. That's what the world does. The devils love it when one Church or one Christian demonizes and condemns another. It destroys the message of Christ.

Some call Michael Brown a heretic too. You have to exactly believe it as they say, which is not understandable. You have to love the Lord with all your mind. How can you love a 3 circle 1/3 overlap trinity with no name, that's not even a person, but a being.

Oh yes I forgot.

Shield of the Trinity - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

If you look at that figure, they have 4 circles. Now I know 3: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. They make one extra. Deus. Instead they just stop saying God and don't skip His Name out of the Bible and why would you try to split up God in circles?

Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father

 

[Sue D.]

See you later big guy, dear 'ol dad' warned me about you - and Sue!

This is the second time you've brought up 'dear ole dad' warning you about me. Maybe you could share who 'dear ole dad' IS. What name did he go by. Sounds like You' ve been indoctrinated By 'dear ole dad'. Maybe 'his' doctrine is off a bit.

 

[Sue D.]

@saginon -- You definitely have a problem. So -- What am I all about? And what have I gotten away with on other Forums. My 'mission' -- oh my goodness.

 

[saginon]

@saginon -- You definitely have a problem. So -- What am I all about? And what have I gotten away with on other Forums. My 'mission' -- oh my goodness.

Conversation ended. I don't accept PM's.

Back to the topic of Trinity.

 

[Sue D.]

@saginon -- you chose to malign me on public forum - -- I approached you via PM to take care of whatever you have against me in private.

You aren't giving me a chance to defend what you feel I'm guilty of. It seems to be that I defend the trinity and to you and apparently your father, who ever he is, that's a problem. Well -- then -- so be it. I defend the trinity -- But I've never been any kind of busy-body on PMing. And how would you have any clue as to who I start a 'conversation' with?! Or what I say in that process.

 

[saginon]

@saginon -- you chose to malign me on public forum - -- I approached you via PM to take care of whatever you have against me in private.

You aren't giving me a chance to defend what you feel I'm guilty of. It seems to be that I defend the trinity and to you and apparently your father, who ever he is, that's a problem. Well -- then -- so be it. I defend the trinity -- But I've never been any kind of busy-body on PMing. And how would you have any clue as to who I start a 'conversation' with?! Or what I say in that process.

Let it go. I don't care that you're a believer in the Trinity. I apologize for bringing it up. Just don't condemn me and don't misquote me for rejecting the trinity and things will be fine.

 

[Sue D.]

@saginon -- I've never condemned you. And the trinity is very important. And our salvation is Because Of the Godhead. And some things Are important enough To take a stand on.

You Do need a better understanding Of the trinity. Because the Holy Spirit came upon Mary when she was still a virgin -- when Jesus was born - He was deity and because Mary was a human being -- Jesus was also born as a Jewish baby.
And That is the reason that Jesus Christ Could die on the cross with our sins on Himself -- go to hell in our place -- And rise bodily from the dead. And after That -- 40 days afterwards - He ascended back up to heaven to sit at the right hand of God the Father. Jesus Christ was God incarnate. And that's the part that our human mind has a hard time with. And it's Not 'logical' and it doesn't 'make sense'. But does it really Need to? It's one of those 'by faith' things.

 

[saginon]

@saginon -- I've never condemned you. And the trinity is very important. And our salvation is Because Of the Godhead. And some things Are important enough To take a stand on.

You Do need a better understanding Of the trinity. Because the Holy Spirit came upon Mary when she was still a virgin -- when Jesus was born - He was deity and because Mary was a human being -- Jesus was also born as a Jewish baby.
And That is the reason that Jesus Christ Could die on the cross with our sins on Himself -- go to hell in our place -- And rise bodily from the dead. And after That -- 40 days afterwards - He ascended back up to heaven to sit at the right hand of God the Father. Jesus Christ was God incarnate. And that's the part that our human mind has a hard time with. And it's Not 'logical' and it doesn't 'make sense'. But does it really Need to? It's one of those 'by faith' things.

The Trinity doctrine was developed over the course of a century. The incarnation was discussed after the first century but never became doctrine until after the Nicaean council. “Incarnation,” is the belief that Jesus is not a created being, but the invisible God "clothed" in human flesh. However, the word "BEGOTTEN" disproves that assumption. The doctrine of the Incarnation was formulated after the Nicaean Council. The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church verifies this fact:

"The doctrine, which took classical shape under the influence of the controversies of the 4th-5th centuries, was formally defined at the Council of Chalcedon of 451. It was largely molded by the diversity of tradition in the schools of Antioch and Alexandria…further refinements were added in the later Patristic and Medieval periods." (F. L. Cross, ed. The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church Oxford University Press, N.Y., 1983), p. 696.)

I can believe in the incarnation only as far as saying the son of God acquired manhood at the virgin birth, but I know that doesn't work for you. Incarnations and 'triads' of God's is a pagan concept. They began way back in Egyptian, Babylonian and Sumerian cultures.

I'm NOT saying I deny the virgin birth. I'm saying that Mary did not conceive God in the form of Jesus, he is NOT God.

 

[newname]

The Trinity doctrine was developed over the course of a century. The incarnation was discussed after the first century but never became doctrine until after the Nicaean council. “Incarnation,” is the belief that Jesus is not a created being, but the invisible God "clothed" in human flesh. However, the word "BEGOTTEN" disproves that assumption. The doctrine of the Incarnation was formulated after the Nicaean Council. The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church verifies this fact:

"The doctrine, which took classical shape under the influence of the controversies of the 4th-5th centuries, was formally defined at the Council of Chalcedon of 451. It was largely molded by the diversity of tradition in the schools of Antioch and Alexandria…further refinements were added in the later Patristic and Medieval periods." (F. L. Cross, ed. The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church Oxford University Press, N.Y., 1983), p. 696.)

I can believe in the incarnation only as far as saying the son of God acquired manhood at the virgin birth, but I know that doesn't work for you. Incarnations and 'triads' of God's is a pagan concept. They began way back in Egyptian, Babylonian and Sumerian cultures.

I'm NOT saying I deny the virgin birth. I'm saying that Mary did not conceive God in the form of Jesus, he is NOT God.

I think begotten is that He became a human Himself. Before that, there was the Angel of the Lord, but with a body, you also get a part of fleshly soul or so. I think that died. The ego: I want to eat. That was not Him. That's the flesh. That was tempted. I dont want to die for the rest. He came here to die and His flesh of course didn't want to. That part was cut off and then He became like God again.
He was always at the bosom of the Father. He is the lesser YHWH. In the O.T. were 2 YHWH's, but YHWH means I am. There are 2 called YHWH at the same time in O.T. texts. The Jews already noticed that and didn't really get it either. You can't see God and live, yet they saw God and lived. The Representation of the Father.

It was never a problem for them, Jacob, Abraham to just see God as a Messenger. Only when He became really human, it became a problem and you may not worship a man. Yet they just worshipped Him (Gideon) when He had no flesh as God. He even had Gods Name. They said they saw God.

 

[KingJ]

Why are you even questioning if I'm a Christian? The Trinity makes nobody a Christian. The man-made doctrine of the Trinity is counter-productive to Christianity. James said God cannot lie, sin, or be tempted...

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

God cannot sin because it would be inconsistent with His character and His nature. Correct? IF Jesus is fully God that makes the cross a hoax and Jesus a fraud. IF Jesus IS God, that means he could not have been tempted OR sinned anyway making his 'sinless sacrifice' a complete hoax and Jesus himself a fraud! Oh but the Trinitarian response is going to be, "that's because Jesus is 100% God and 100% man."

When people question ones faith in Christ even to the point of condemnation like many trinitarians do. It's illogical to accuse someone is not a Christian and even condemned because they reject the man-made doctrine Trinity - a doctrine they admit cannot be fully explained or understood.



God didn't lay His life down at the cross. He sent His son to the cross - big difference. God wanted a sinless sacrife and we got it in that unlucky fella who died for us.

What God did was provide redemption through his 'firstborn' son as a propitiation of our sins. Rejecting the Trinity doesn't attack the cross, the Trinity DOES!...

Trinitarian's teach that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man AT THE SAME TIME? That is their response to every question they cannot overcome. It's the biggest excuse to cover-up major contradictions - which is to say, "That's because Jesus is 100% man, OR - that's because Jesus is 100% God." An example of that is if I quote Jesus where he says God is Greater and the only way they can dodge the coequality of Trinitarianism is to use the pretext that "that's because he's 100% man!"


The ridiculous heresy is the doctrine of Trinity that cannot be fully explained or understood, one that contradicts Jesus' own words that the Father is Greater. What motivates non-Trinitarians is - Trinitarians CONDEMN non-Trinitarians over a heretical doctrine devised by the Catholic's, a branch of Christianity many of trinitarian's also condemn! We want to believe what the bible teaches and what we perceive as truth, not a doctrine that originated over a political dispute over the state religion of Rome in the 3rd to 4th century. The Bishops of Rome voted on the Trinity doctrine several times over the course of about 100 years before securing it as DOCTRINE.

I know several people like that and many of them become Atheist for the same reason Trinitarian's condemn non-trinitarians....JUDGMENTALISM!

I don't think there's a doctrine that is more circular than a Trinity discussion.

Grasping Jesus is Lord is part and parcel of Christianity 1 Cor 12:3, Matt 16:16-17.

 

[KingJ]

My attitude toward scripture isn't dangerously wrong, yours is because you condemn non-trinitarians. Jesus said,

"Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:"

Jesus said that to non-Christians. Paul says Christians must judge all things 1 Cor 2:15.

You seem stuck on a few selective scriptures. Take a breather. Step back. And consider ''all'' scripture on the topic.

 

[newname]

Grasping Jesus is Lord is part and parcel of Christianity 1 Cor 12:3, Matt 16:16-17.

Yes.
But I see a unitarian as a brother. You have to confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord. I wonder if that doesn't just mean YHWH if it was in Hebrew.
Trinity doctrin is not a thing you must believe in order to be saved. Abraham had no Trinity doctrin.
To see Jesus as just some angel is dangerous, but on the other hand Trinity doctrin does not solve that. The Holy Spirit is a complete seperate Person if you don't watch out. I heard it preach that God and Jesus are in heaven and only the Spirit lives here. Then you talk to Him seperately and praise Him, leave the Word out, don't test anything and the devil can play for Holy Spirit.

I do believe most from the Trinity doctrin. I just believe the Bible texts. But most don't get it, preach without any education and ppl have no clue what they even mean and you get very weird thoughts from it. I always prayed to Jesus. Father was in my mind a different Person with a different personality, cause that's how humans think when you have 3 persons. My aunt is someone completely different than my mom.

I went to a Bible school. That guy is really good. He gets the harvest in. He preached on the Trinity. He said God is like water, vapour, ice. I wanted to joke: that's modalism! but I didn't. Who cares. Lot of Trinitarians don't even know what they believe. As long as they confess Jesus is Lord and I can see good fruit it's good for me.

They should be able to explain it to a kid. God reveals Himself to kids. I was 20 years in church. Didnt get the Trinity. Read on internet a guy, reformed, studied theology against a modalist who kep saying: Isaiah 9:6 says He is called eternal Father. They both did not listen to each other one bit. I listened to both. The trinitarian was wrong with that text. The other was wrong with a whole lot. I said: Lord I dont understand it one bit. Explain it to me. Look at Jesus alone. Not the Father in heaven and the Holy Spirit coming on Him. Jesus alone. Father spoke and was in Him. Holy Spirit was in Him and did the miracles when He spoke. 3 working together as One, just like with creation. Most would say it was just one Person. Why He can be called eternal Father is because in Him the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily.
I explained it like this to my son when he was 8 y o who did not get it one bit. When I explained it like this, he was like: oh yes of course. What is 3 in One? Jesus. Vapour, ice doesn't show who God is. Jesus is the perfect Representation of the Father and thus what they call the Trinity.

 

[saginon]

Jesus said that to non-Christians.

I will forever be impressed how Christians can read scriptures that are simple to understand and just CANNOT get them right. I don't get it, did you even look at the passage?

No, he didn't say that to non-Christians. Read the chapter!

Luke 6:20 - "And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God."
V. 34 - And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
V.35 - But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again;
V.36 - Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
V.37 - Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Paul says Christians must judge all things 1 Cor 2:15.

It's a short verse, why didn't you quote the entire verse?

"But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man."

Let's look at a few verses before V. 15...

V. 13-14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man."

What is Paul saying here? His message is that no natural man is equipped to judge a spiritual man. It takes a spiritual man to understand and explain spiritual things because - "they are spiritually discerned."

You seem stuck on a few selective scriptures. Take a breather. Step back. And consider ''all'' scripture on the topic.

I'm not stuck on a few scriptures. I look at the entire concept of Trinity, and ALL the verses they use to support it, and base my beliefs from there. I can confront any verse a Trinitarian sends my way...

"They are spiritually discerned!" The Trinity doctrine being a man-made Catholic doctrine is easily 'spiritually discerned" but Trinitarians disregard the message presented in the original language as well as dozens of simple to understand verses like...

John 14:28 "Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

Mathew 24:36 "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only."

Mathew 12:31 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."

 

[saginon]

Grasping Jesus is Lord is part and parcel of Christianity 1 Cor 12:3, Matt 16:16-17.

Do you think I'm NOT grasping Jesus is Lord just because I reject the Trinity? Do you know the difference between Jesus being Lord and a Trinity that teaches Jesus is 100% God?

"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

Lord - kyrios - he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord.

"He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, (anointed) the Son of the living God."

 

[newname]

The Father cannot walk around on earth and in the garden of Eden. Only the Word of God. Jews had seen that already, ages before the catholics made a doctrin. They changed the text for the ppl in synagogues to understand. He didn't see God, but the Word of God.
And the Word became flesh and dwelled among us.

 

[Sue D.]

The trinity has Always been in Scripture -- as to When the RCC discovered it is another matter.

Your three passages All confirm the three parts of the trinity -- John 14 is talking about both the Father and Jesus Christ His Son. Depending on the context -- Jesus is sometimes saying that "I and my Father are One" and in other contexts Jesus Christ is acknowledging His subordination To the Father.

Matthew 24 passage -- Again the Father and Jesus Christ. = two parts of the Godhead / trinity.

Matthew 12 -- the Holy Spirit - the 3rd part of the trinity / Godhead. = 3 parts = tri. unity = working together - Not the same jobs, but working Together through out Scripture.