What If I'm Born Gay?

[Sue D.]

Does working on the Sabbath "warrant Capital Punishment", and whilst Christ didn't condone capital punishment he certainly condemned those that ignored those in need or lived in wealth and comfort to Hell, a fate worse than death,....... theres no "sugar coating" or "Blurring", sin is sin, to ordain an order of sin is to put yourself in the position of God, a position which yourself and others seem most happy to do.

@Rad -- no one is trying to 'play God'. We ARE sharing what God's Word Does say on the subject. And homosexuality has Always been a hot button issue.

Actually in the Old Testament - an eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth. Meaning that whatever You did to someElse -- be prepared to suffer the same activity put upon yourself.
And there were Also sanctuary cities. Like life imprisonment sometimes. Depending on how old the high priest was. If it was a young man, a person would be there until the priest Died - a natural death. If he was an old man, then it would be a shorter sentence. But the offender's situation would be investigated. Accidental or on purpose. If the family of the person 'you' accidentally killed or purposely killed got to 'you' before you were able To get to the sanctuary city, 'you' were dead.

 

[Armin]

So what are you saying? You are a queer and a Christian?

Quantrill

No. . . A 'queer" Christian is someone who doesn't even repent of their sins and keeps wanting to nurture their thought life with their urges. I don't.

 

[B-A-C]

Furthermore, I'm Christian, and you aren't either a licensed psychologist, nor do you speak for God. The Bible does, and it plainly states you can't lose your salvation.

Where? Actually it states you can in over a dozen places. This is the problem with OSAS. I'll get "saved", sin all I want.. and there's no reason to worry because I can't lose my salvation.

 

[Armin]

Where? Actually it states you can in over a dozen places. This is the problem with OSAS. I'll get "saved", sin all I want.. and there's no reason to worry because I can't lose my salvation.

The issue isn't that you don't have to worry about God punishing you if you get saved. You can get saved and still get chastised and harmed by your own sin, the consequences of your sin, and God disciplining you, even until death if he wants.

Before you're saved, God punishes the sinner with damnation if they die without Jesus.

 

[Quantrill]

@ Armin

More bs. If you have queer thoughts and temptations, you are homosexual. Fool yourself if you like. You don't fool me. Pretend to repent all you want. but what your selling is manure.

Quantrill[/QUOTE]

 

[Armin]

What's manure is this incivility pretending to be Christian indignation against sin.

 

[Quantrill]

What's manure is this incivility pretending to be Christian indignation against sin.

Against homosexuals. Queers. I simply hold the view that God does. My oh my. How uncivil God is. Take it up with Him.

Quantrill

 

[Armin]

Against homosexuals. Queers. I simply hold the view that God does. My oh my. How uncivil God is. Take it up with Him.

Quantrill

I just need to understand, what is it about an imperfect Christian that has an area in his life, even if sinful, that makes you think that you are better than him? Because you're not teaching me anything I don't already know, and from what I'm seeing, you aren't teaching me anything new to practice.

I have been listening to some people telling me to get back to the Bible and live in the Word. According to the Bible, that's what you should be doing too, not just me.

If I want to move past my sin without considering myself inferior to you that's what I'm doing, and you can't stop me.

 

[Sue D.]

So what are you saying? You are a queer and a Christian?

Quantrill

@Quantrill -- your calling people a 'queer' is So not needed. There are So many situations in a person's life that can influence their sexual orientation or their temptation To it.
You are sounding So Very judgemental.

Lots of people have stuff happen to them as kids that really mess them up. It's not unusual in the least. "we' tend to see the rebellious homosexual's as the Main kind. The one's that make the Rest of them look Horrible // I base a lot of my comments on the research paper I did in college some years ago.

Kids who are molested and it messes them up big time. And adults who are simply curious and teens are a lot curious. too. That does Not make anyone a full-blown homosexual.

And I've heard of church kids who grow into adults and have a 'close friend' who they are living with. They are living good, quiet lives together. God Does know each of our hearts.

And satan knows just the right inner buttons to push in us.

 

[Quantrill]

I just need to understand, what is it about an imperfect Christian that has an area in his life, even if sinful, that makes you think that you are better than him? Because you're not teaching me anything I don't already know, and from what I'm seeing, you aren't teaching me anything new to practice.

I have been listening to some people telling me to get back to the Bible and live in the Word. According to the Bible, that's what you should be doing too, not just me.

If I want to move past my sin without considering myself inferior to you that's what I'm doing, and you can't stop me.

A queer is not an imperfect Christian. They are not a Christian. Am I better? No. But I am a Christian.

I know I am not teaching you anything you don't. know. And that is my point. You are trying to pass yourself off as a homosexual and Christian and you know it and I know it. And that is bs.

I don't know and don't care who you are listening to. I know what you are by what you say.

No. I don't want to move past your sin of homosexuality. And God can and will stop you. Peddle your perversion elsewhere.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

@Quantrill -- your calling people a 'queer' is So not needed. There are So many situations in a person's life that can influence their sexual orientation or their temptation To it.
You are sounding So Very judgemental.

Lots of people have stuff happen to them as kids that really mess them up. It's not unusual in the least. "we' tend to see the rebellious homosexual's as the Main kind. The one's that make the Rest of them look Horrible // I base a lot of my comments on the research paper I did in college some years ago.

Kids who are molested and it messes them up big time. And adults who are simply curious and teens are a lot curious. too. That does Not make anyone a full-blown homosexual.

And I've heard of church kids who grow into adults and have a 'close friend' who they are living with. They are living good, quiet lives together. God Does know each of our hearts.

And satan knows just the right inner buttons to push in us.

You're calling a queer 'gay' is so not needed.

I've heard of this and that. Big deal. We have the Scriptures to know God's mind as to homosexuality.

Quantrill

 

[Sue D.]

@Quantrill -- All I can say is Oh, my gracious sakes.

so, yes you Do have Scriptures to back up your 'message' and of course you Are right. But your method of presentation leaves a LOT to be desired.

You're coming across with a lot of arrogance and That is Not attractive in a Christian. It really turns people Off To Christianity.

Most of the time I'm Not taking a stand like This.

I've usually been on Forums that find homosexuality perfectly okay. Just another life-style and I take time to share why it Isn't. And I'm laughed to 'kingdom-come'.

Well -- on 'here' -- God does know each of our hearts and why we feel inwardly the way we do.

The outwardly rebellious homosexual who is out to flaunt their 'thing' - still has a soul that needs Christ. And those who Are born-again believers have inner struggling going on that no one else is aware of.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Okay everyone thanks for the reminder.

u

The Bible does, and it plainly states you can't lose your salvation.

Please don't be foolish enough to believe this. Despite how mans interpretation......many will find themselves without any hope.
OSAS is a doctrine of demons.

But this ain't the thread for that

 

[KingJ]

Does working on the Sabbath "warrant Capital Punishment", and whilst Christ didn't condone capital punishment he certainly condemned those that ignored those in need or lived in wealth and comfort to Hell, a fate worse than death,....... theres no "sugar coating" or "Blurring", sin is sin, to ordain an order of sin is to put yourself in the position of God, a position which yourself and others seem most happy to do.

The Sabbath was a day the Jews were told to keep out of respect (key word) to God. The day He helped them out of Egypt. Set them free. For a Jew to disrespect this was a serious matter for God. That is why it received capital punishment. They don't need to honor it today, because Jesus setting them free has trumped it. Disrespecting / pulling the middle finger to Jesus is hence now the unpardonable sin (for all).

In the OT there were punishments of warnings, excommunication, stoning and being burnt at the stake. In the NT we read in 1 Cor 6:1-9 that Paul says we can / must and should judge matters better then the unsaved. He utterly rebuked the Christians around him for being 'braindead' on the matter. So degrees of sin is both a NT and an OT 'thing'.

What I find very concerning for those doing the detestable deed of homosexuality is two things. 1. God (not man) rained punishment on those doing it. It is like those worshipping the golden calf. God did not wait for a panel of elders to judge the matter and pass out sentences to the guilty. God, Himself judged the matter among those Hebrews in the wilderness and those in Sodom and Gomorrah. This is for me a 'terrifying truth'. 2. I cannot think of a more disrespectful act to perform with your God given body. God takes ''us respecting Him'' very seriously as you noted with the Sabbath.

What Christians need to understand is that we are to get on our knees and ''work out'' our salvation in ''fear and trembling'' Phil 2:12. Now there is NO WAY that you can do this and pass your own judgement knowing God's view on the matter. There will be no person practicing homosexuality in heaven. Fact. It is a sin that causes God to ''hand you over to sin'' Rom 1:24.

To hear any Christian spout ''sin is sin'' and place a full-stop there is a telling sign that they are trying to justify a sin they want to live with. Sin is sin, but sin also has degrees. These degrees point to us being sold out to sin or not. Paul did ''NOT'' continue in murder, yet he did continue to ''battle'' with sin Rom 7:15.

 

[KingJ]

All sin warrants Hell without Jesus Christ as our savior.

Disagree. Only God is perfect and without any sin Mark 10:18. Did Adam and Eve go straight to hell after they sinned. Yes or No?

The wages of sin is death, not hell. In the OT, before Jesus, Hades was split. There were two homes for those in ''death''. Those sinners who hated their sin and repented truthfully (Psalm 51:17) went to Abraham's bosom / paradise. Those sinners sold out to sin and could not sincerely repent, did ''NOT''. Their home will be the eternal lake of fire when Hades is thrown therein.

If Jesus never died, there would still be a divide among sinners.

Now, though sexual sins are worse than other sins, the Bible says this, and yes, homosexuality warrants capital punishment in the Old Testament, the way that people are supposed to discuss homosexuality in the New Testament is by pointing out that it's a sin that keeps them out of Heaven.

We are to discern all matters properly 1 Cor 2:15, 1 Cor 6:1-9. Matt 5:28 says the thought of adultery is a sin. Matt 5:32 and Matt 19:9 says only the actual deed of adultery is grounds for a divorce.

We are to explain to homosexuals that it is a gross sin. And gross sins show your heart is ''FAR'' from God. You are ''UTTERLY'' disrespecting God. Doing a deed that God Himself punished with immediate wrath / death. God did not rain fire and brimstone on Sodom because it was reported that the people of Sodom were speaking ill to one another.

Any watered-down discernment of 'types of sin' raises many red flags. As we all want to live in our sin / justify it and ''also'' have Jesus in our pocket. Christians who teach this way innocently are simply very naïve.

Now what I was trying to say earlier was that I had strong homosexual urges, which I do, but that doesn't maek me, as I foolishly thought, that I was homosexual. I can't help but wonder, however, if some people just dont' understand that this issue can effect someone like me very strongly. There are some reasons why just stating you can't be a Christian if you are homosexual is problematic.

We all have those urges. Especially with media today. Having those urges and even making a 'once off' mistake do not point to being ''sold out to sin''. What we have to understand is that when we ''live in'' such a 'gross / mortal' sin, we show God that we do not consider Him. We do not want to respect Him with our bodies. We do not want to be with Him. How can He / we trust the repentance of someone who ''continues'' and ''justifies'' mortal sin? And it is 'mortal sin'. Of that there is no doubt.

I was saved many years ago at the age of fifteen, I don't have a strong testimony about hardcore sins like coming out of drugs, violence or crime like some people do, in fact, I don't remember much of the time I was saved back then, it's been twenty years. Overtime, I developed an unsavory thought life. That was after I was saved, precisely because I was not in fellowship with other believers. Not because I was more sinful than other people.

Before I was saved I was doing every ''detestable sex deed'' in the book. I had no restraint. I even told God ''If you made me this way and you don't approve, then you made me to go to hell''. I use to wonder how I would do anything else as this life was all I wanted. I spoke honestly to God. I then got on my knees and told Him I respect Him, am grateful that He made me and don't want to live a life that He disapproves of. He must help me understand what He understands. He did. He showed Himself to me in the clouds. He spoke to me that night in my sleepish state. He changed my life. God can work with someone that ''wants'' to serve Him. Do what is 'good and right'. God cannot work with someone who wants to live by their flesh / with their flesh in charge.

Rom 8:13 If you live after the flesh you will die.

 

[KingJ]

Seem to sugar coat, the first two words sum it up.

Another way to say it might be, going soft on the issue. That I am not, my emphasis was meant more to the lost soul sinning g than a believer sinning. The lost soul rejected God and Jesus, killed, covered, committed adultery, did not love his neighbour, committed sexual sin, was hard hearted to the full, belonging to sin, the world and the devil.

Are you saying if he comes to Christ, opens is heart in true repentance, believes, says the creed, all from the heart that God will not accept him. I appreciate God calls us we do not call him, are you saying.

Is not the saving of soul with a truly repentant heart in God's hands, as is the wrath of God.

We are saved by grace after we repent. We do not 'repent by grace'. I don't believe in Calvinism at all if that's what you asking :smile:.

My only point was that we cannot blur sin. Sin is sin and sin has degrees. We teach terribly if we place a full-stop after ''sin is sin''.

 

[KingJ]

I'm sorry but you can be Christian and "not be right" with God too.

Furthermore, I'm Christian, and you aren't either a licensed psychologist, nor do you speak for God. The Bible does, and it plainly states you can't lose your salvation.

We know we are a Christian by examining ourselves 2 Cor 13:5. If we are living in mortal sin, we are not in Christ. That is an obvious fact.

I do believe in OSAS. God does not make mistakes. I also believe many think they are saved. If we cannot easily follow Matt 16:24, we are not saved.

Matt 16:24 says ''deny ourselves''. Now on matters that upset God to the point that He ordained stoning to death as fitting punishment, we cannot deny ourselves? We fool ourselves if we say we are saved.

Overly accepting and condoning those who are in this mortal sin is also a mortal sin. This is where we must tread carefully and not blur sin with lines like ''sin is sin''.

 

[Sue D.]

Sodom and Gommorrah were destroyed because the inhabitants openly practiced homosexuality to the point of going after new people in town and wanting to 'engage' with them. We're not quite to that level, yet. We Do have 'gay pride parades' which are gross to look at -- which I don't. It Does demonstrate how ugly / gross / weird looking it Can Be. The world of pedophilia -- men going after boys for Their 'entertainment' -- it's a sick, sinful world 'out there'. Depraved.

And 'mortal or immortal' sins. That sounds very RCC. And the concept of being willing to lay down our lives for others being a 'sure sign' of one's salvation. That's a works-based salvation. And Why bring Calvinism into This conversation -- KingJ seems to see everything through the eyes of Calvinism.

How about the fact of once saved Always saved Because -- the Holy Spirit Does put New desires in our hearts. The fruits Of the spirit Are found in Galations 5:22. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control Should be qualities in the lives of every believer.

And there is Ephesians 1:13 'And you were also included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing your inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession. to the praise of His glory.

Our salvation will be complete when we are with Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit Is indwelling us Now --keeping us safe-- He Won't leave us -- until we Are with Christ. And people Will notice a change in us.

 

[Sue D.]

@KingJ -- I misspoke about you and Calvinism -- you said you Don't believe in Calvinism , but 'Brother Paul' was bringing up a concept that You interpreted as Being Calvinistic in nature.

You seem to be versed in what Calvinism teaches but don't believe in it. Great -- but you don't really need to 'see' Calvinism around corners. That's what you were doing with Me previous to this thread.

KingJ -- homosexuality does Not harm God. God does Not need our protection. God Is omnipotent -- all powerful -- He is Stronger than our sins -- HE provided the blood of Christ / Calvary For us. God hates homosexuality , not because it harms Him, but because it perverts His perfect plan for mankind. HE doesn't want Us to be harmed by it. It is destructive to society in So many ways and it Is different than adultery which is Also destructive in Other ways.

My comment regarding 'hot button' topics -- meaning that they are topics that people don't like to talk about -- they raise lots of controversy. Divorce and remarriage , relationships. People want to be allowed to make their Own choices and don't like being Challenged with Biblical morals / ethics.

 

[KingJ]

And 'mortal or immortal' sins. That sounds very RCC. And the concept of being willing to lay down our lives for others being a 'sure sign' of one's salvation. That's a works-based salvation. And Why bring Calvinism into This conversation -- KingJ seems to see everything through the eyes of Calvinism.

Sue, you just said why Sodom was destroyed and you then say mortal and venial sins is RCC only? They were destroyed for doing detestable things (mortal sin) Eze 16:49-50. Not merely having ill thoughts (venial sin). As you noted.

Laying our lives down is the requisite from Jesus in Matt 16:24. You confuse repentance with salvation. Salvation is available to those who repent and 'follow Matt 16:24'. I believe in and teach OSAS how can I then also believe in works based salvation?

To become a Christian takes a depth of intent from us. A lot like the decision to marry someone. To say and mean those vows. Now God judges us and our depth of intent Jer 17:9-11 before we are given a revelation of Jesus / faith to believe in Jesus 1 Cor 12:3, Matt 16:16-17, Rom 12:3.

Calvinism gels with many Christians who believe they can sin all they want. Calvinism teaches that you are chosen. Chosen to be sanctified. Chosen to be washed and cleaned. John 3:16 is for you and the others pre-selected. Granted, Calvinism also teaches that if you are saved you would not live on in sin, especially mortal sin. So I guess it is a mutation of Calvinism many 'Christian' homosexuals hold too. Many believe they are a Christian. Believe they believe in Jesus. Believe they have faith in Jesus. When in fact that are fooling themselves. They are Matt 7:22 type Christians. They are the reason 90% of Paul's teaching is on sin and those who continue in sin not going to heaven.