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Blocked Inheritance

This line is a common belief but it is simply a miss-read of the passage.

No it isn't. It says what it says. It can be taken at face value without any spin.

Likewise Holy Spirit = Jesus = God. Nobody can think rejecting the Holy Spirit is not rejecting Jesus.

Matt 12:32; "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

rejecting the Son of Man (Jesus) can be forgiven. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit cannot. also while Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both God, they are NOT the same person.
Blaspheming one is not the same thing as blaspheming the other.

You highlight '''because they were saying, He has an unclean spirit'' Mark 3:30. This is just evidence that they are mocking the Holy Spirit. Calling the Holy Spirit unclean. IE Rejecting Jesus. Not 'claiming the devil did something the Holy Spirit did'.

Saying something is done by Beelzebub, when in fact it is being done by the Holy Spirit ... IS... claiming the devil did something the Holy Spirit did.
 
No it isn't. It says what it says. It can be taken at face value without any spin.
But you are not reading it as is. If someone never told you that line, you would not assume that line from reading Mark 3. You have to completely ignore the verses trying to explain 'a house divided'.

Matt 12:32; "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

rejecting the Son of Man (Jesus) can be forgiven. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit cannot. also while Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both God, they are NOT the same person. Blaspheming one is not the same thing as blaspheming the other.
You are not grasping my context in that line you quoted.

The Holy Spirit is only here to teach us about Jesus, NOT Himself. He also only comes to those who invite Him / have a Christian introduce them to Him. So blaspheming Him is '''pure''' rejection of Jesus. Blaspheming God the flesh / God the Son is not pure rejection of Jesus. There is no ''Holy Spirit figure'' to reject. Try grasp that. The Holy Spirit did not preach to five thousand people in the wilderness. The Holy Spirit did not walk on water.

Imagine you are unsaved. Go to a church with the Holy Spirit all around you. In your face. Thoughts of Jesus hitting you. You then curse Him. It is a Heb 10:29 issue. It shows a very wicked depth of intent!!! A very different issue to cursing a Man who walked the earth 2000 years ago.

Saying something is done by Beelzebub, when in fact it is being done by the Holy Spirit ... IS... claiming the devil did something the Holy Spirit did.
Which verse are you quoting?
 
Isn't it interesting that Paul said in (1 Cor. 6:11), "Such were some of you"? Yet, many of these things were being practiced by the Corinthians. Shouldn't Paul have said "and such are some of you"? I wonder why he did that?

Are you contesting the written record? Where does Paul tell them they are still doing those most immoral of immoral acts in that Church that some of them did some similar sins before being Christians? He did pick out a single case of a member being allowed to keep fornicating with the woman in 1 Cor 5 without expulsion. What would Paul have to say about a typical Church now where statistically half of the married members were divorced, often involved in wife-swapping, jumping from bed to bed, yet showing up in their Sunday best even between divorces? Why, the church closures of 4,000 a year would at least double due to lack of membership and support. What will Jesus say?

Also, there is another interesting thing Paul says here in (6:11). "...but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God." Note how the order is different from our experience. Our experience is we are first justified by faith, then begins our sanctification, then our daily being washed or cleansed.

A modern Christian's experience can't be different from a newly saved ancient Corinthian evangelized by Paul. A vessel dedicated to a finite service must be cleaned and kept clean and kept aside from common usage towards that dedicated service. Otherwise that vessel is corrupted and should be crushed.
You have the "order" mixed up disorderly. While all people of every generation are first in the category of "the lost", sinners like straying sheep, when one hears the gospel, believes it, and according to Jesus' first sermon repents, that is forsake sins, not just be sorry for being caught or having a bed memory of sin, that person is on the right trail to salvation. There remains a significant amount of instructions (The New Testament) on how to navigate that path and arrive though the Door Jesus into eternal glory. We SHALL be saved when Jesus returns to collect us body, soul and spirit. No person dabbling in and out of sins is going to be saved, for that person betrays repentance. One either repents or doesn't repent. The devils believe and tremble.

Though the Corinthian believers had these sins among them, they have been washed, sanctified, and thus remain justified. So Paul could rightly say, "Such were some of you".

What I was alarmed about was your "Our experience is we are first justified by faith, then begins our sanctification, then our daily being washed or cleansed."

How could the Corinthian Christians still have their former gentile sins and yet be considered washed, set apart to the service of God? They did take part in God's justification is based on tiers of requirements, that are established by Jesus' sermon to believe (by faith) His gospel and repent (by obedience), rejecting the former sin condition (eating His flesh, drinking His blood), to be continually washed by His blood ONCE, sanctified by the word of God continually (following Him, forsaking the past conditions of a sinner's life. The former sinner then lives unto eternal life under declaration of God to be justified through Jesus Christ because of faith in His plan of salvation. That plan far exceeded any such as that of Moses.

Yes, those in (1 Cor. 6:9-10) shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. But believers are not that anymore. What a wonderful God to provide such a salvation so that He can call us justified in the midst of our sins, because He has sanctified and daily washes us from our sins.

In the midst of our sins? What limits? Surely not habitual, deliberate sin lifestyles of the intensity of those listed in 1 Cor 6! You are either washed of those, or like a washed sow rolling in the mud again, or the dog eating his own vomit. Sinners not saved return to their former sins.

I know, I can hear it coming already. But, to the believer, does such grace cause you to want to go out and sin against God because you are saved? Does such grace cause you to want to try and get away with as much as you can since you are saved? Of course not. Such grace causes us to want to serve Him more. Causes us to grieve over the sins we do and seek God's deliverance from them.

I deal with drug addicts and others with life-controlling sins who spend their lives grieving over their repetitive sins, knowing they ought to overcome, but don't. Most end up in prison where the drub addiction continues to be fed, or dead. A few come out of it. There is rarely any grace from God experienced by them. Grace comes when they obey the gospel, that grace having made the gospel of Christ to be available. Delieverance comes to those who walk away from sin, cold turkey. A slave might see a sign "All Slaves Are Free", but until the slave to sin actually walks out of the slave camp, he remains a slave to sin. On his way out he realized indeed he is free, for he is no longer in the sin camp, nor is forced to return. He makes it to the next town. Old slave friends greet him there, pleading for him to return. "Where will you live, what will you eat, what can you do out there?" Will he act on that, or remember he was declared free? Many go back to familiarity, some keep leaving to pursue freedom.

In other words, because we are not that, we don't need to act like that. You are not a liar. So quit lying. You are not full of jealousy. So quite being jealous. You are not a fornicator. So quit fornicating. What we are is "washed, sanctified, and justified."

Quantrill

If a sequential order, we are washed by the blood of Jesus by faith in His gospel message, justified by His cleansing unto repentance from sin (declared righteous in spite of our PAST sins}, and sanctified (set apart to) day by say by the renewing of our mind by the Word of God to do His service.
 
But you are not reading it as is. If someone never told you that line, you would not assume that line from reading Mark 3. You have to completely ignore the verses trying to explain 'a house divided'.

It was said earlier a house can't be divided. Wrong. Any house can be divided, resulting in it's fall. The scripture posits the condition "if" a house is divided. Jesus was pointing out that Satan's house would fall if divided by supporting that he did some good thing the Holy Spirit wrought. Satan's house depends upon having credit for what Satan does. To smear the work of the Holy Spirit like that is to insult the Holy Spirit, Jesus the godhead bodily who was and is eternally, and the Father God, all coexistent and separately, yet ONE. Only the bodily Jesus could ever be seen. The Spirit was over earth at creation, all three present to make man, the Spirit upon (anointing) eople serving God, all three present at the water baptism of Jesus. Three who testify.

On to Hebrews 10:28-31 (KJV)
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath

trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath

counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath

done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Notice the person was sanctified by the blood of Jesus. WAS sanctified! Only a believer can become an apostate.

What do you consider to be trodding underfoot the Son of God?

What do you consider doing despite to the Spirit of grace?

Where does any sin lifestyle get excused?
 
Are you contesting the written record? Where does Paul tell them they are still doing those most immoral of immoral acts in that Church that some of them did some similar sins before being Christians? He did pick out a single case of a member being allowed to keep fornicating with the woman in 1 Cor 5 without expulsion. What would Paul have to say about a typical Church now where statistically half of the married members were divorced, often involved in wife-swapping, jumping from bed to bed, yet showing up in their Sunday best even between divorces? Why, the church closures of 4,000 a year would at least double due to lack of membership and support. What will Jesus say?



A modern Christian's experience can't be different from a newly saved ancient Corinthian evangelized by Paul. A vessel dedicated to a finite service must be cleaned and kept clean and kept aside from common usage towards that dedicated service. Otherwise that vessel is corrupted and should be crushed.
You have the "order" mixed up disorderly. While all people of every generation are first in the category of "the lost", sinners like straying sheep, when one hears the gospel, believes it, and according to Jesus' first sermon repents, that is forsake sins, not just be sorry for being caught or having a bed memory of sin, that person is on the right trail to salvation. There remains a significant amount of instructions (The New Testament) on how to navigate that path and arrive though the Door Jesus into eternal glory. We SHALL be saved when Jesus returns to collect us body, soul and spirit. No person dabbling in and out of sins is going to be saved, for that person betrays repentance. One either repents or doesn't repent. The devils believe and tremble.



What I was alarmed about was your "Our experience is we are first justified by faith, then begins our sanctification, then our daily being washed or cleansed."

How could the Corinthian Christians still have their former gentile sins and yet be considered washed, set apart to the service of God? They did take part in God's justification is based on tiers of requirements, that are established by Jesus' sermon to believe (by faith) His gospel and repent (by obedience), rejecting the former sin condition (eating His flesh, drinking His blood), to be continually washed by His blood ONCE, sanctified by the word of God continually (following Him, forsaking the past conditions of a sinner's life. The former sinner then lives unto eternal life under declaration of God to be justified through Jesus Christ because of faith in His plan of salvation. That plan far exceeded any such as that of Moses.



In the midst of our sins? What limits? Surely not habitual, deliberate sin lifestyles of the intensity of those listed in 1 Cor 6! You are either washed of those, or like a washed sow rolling in the mud again, or the dog eating his own vomit. Sinners not saved return to their former sins.



I deal with drug addicts and others with life-controlling sins who spend their lives grieving over their repetitive sins, knowing they ought to overcome, but don't. Most end up in prison where the drub addiction continues to be fed, or dead. A few come out of it. There is rarely any grace from God experienced by them. Grace comes when they obey the gospel, that grace having made the gospel of Christ to be available. Delieverance comes to those who walk away from sin, cold turkey. A slave might see a sign "All Slaves Are Free", but until the slave to sin actually walks out of the slave camp, he remains a slave to sin. On his way out he realized indeed he is free, for he is no longer in the sin camp, nor is forced to return. He makes it to the next town. Old slave friends greet him there, pleading for him to return. "Where will you live, what will you eat, what can you do out there?" Will he act on that, or remember he was declared free? Many go back to familiarity, some keep leaving to pursue freedom.



If a sequential order, we are washed by the blood of Jesus by faith in His gospel message, justified by His cleansing unto repentance from sin (declared righteous in spite of our PAST sins}, and sanctified (set apart to) day by say by the renewing of our mind by the Word of God to do His service.

The Corinthian church was full of division. (1 Cor. 1:10-17) Full of immaturity. (2:2) Full of carnality. (3:1) Full of Fornication, coveting, idolater, railers, drunkards, and extortioners. (5:1) (5:11) So, no. I am not contesting the written record.

Exactly right. Today's Christian experience is the same as yesterdays. The same as the Corinthian believers. Ones being declared saved by God and ones availability for service are two different things. You miss the point completely of what I said. Paul says, in (1 Cor. 6:11), "such were some of you" . This means of course that they are not now that because they have been 'washed, sanctified, and justified'. Their sins have been washed away, because they have been sanctified, because they have been justified. You are trying to identify the person by what they do. God identifies the person by who they are. So, God solidifies who the person is and then begins the process of cleaning up the person. Just because the person still needs cleansing up, doesn't take away from who he is. Thus Paul says to the Corinthians, "Such were some of you". Not any more, though they still are sinning in these things.

In other words, the Corinthians sins did not change who they were. They certainly needed encouragement and chastisement for these sins, but they did not change who they were in Christ.

Yes, in the midst of our sins. If it is not in the midst of our sins, how is it grace? The law cares nothing about 'habitual' or 'one time'. It is a sin, or sins. Either way you don't make it. As I said, God has created such a salvation that He can call those things that are not as though they were. (Rom. 4:17) He can say of Israel, (Num. 23:21), "He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel:..." But there was iniquity and perverseness in Israel. Go back and read the history prior to this statement. But what does God say? I don't see it. How can He say that? Because He has provided the salvation that removes such from His sight. It is not that it is not there. It is that He has taken care of it.

The dog eating his own vomit and the sow being cleansed is a poor example. Believers are not dogs, or pigs. The dog and pig are those who are not believers but cleaned themselves up. Looks good before man. Means nothing to God. Believers are sheep.

Your description of drug addicts and those with life controlling sins not experiencing grace because they didn't get away from it, is quite appalling. This is why I always say, grace preached by many is not grace at all. It is just more law. By grace we are saved. God has us at that point. Then begins the life of cleansing. Some do well and get out. Some not so well. That doesn't discount their salvation in Christ. And, whether you know it or not, you are in no better shape 'grace' wise then the worst drug addict, drunkard, fornicator, etc.. It took grace to save you also, and it takes grace to keep you just like it does them.

We are declared righteous because all our sin has been remitted by Christ.

Quantrill
 
Greetings,

righteousness is by faith.

A good read of the book of Hebrews will give a deeper clarity to all on this thread. Doesn't take long if you are really interested in what it says as a letter. Snipping out parts of it does it no justice and in fact, if one wanted to one could pick verses out and make several opposing arguments or stands according to what one wants to either believe or wants others to do so. As a whole, though, it is quite eye opening and there is much support for the OP @B-A-C in its 'passages'.

The Apostles wrote to the faithful, so when they said such things as 'us' or 'you' they were addressing the faithful, not those who were cutting loose (literally and figuratively). They were encouraging the faithful to keep the faith and not do as others and throw it away.

At the same time we can see clearly that all forms of unholy living as B-A-C has already poster with Bible quotes was not only to avoid but also reaped a reward, which was not to be saved.

I personally want a fair judge not one who can not be depended upon for true justice. I confess here that saying that I have not always lived in a way pleasing to God and I know that even i will be judged. Even more reason to watch my step and walk uprightly.
Blasphemy is bring the name of God into disrepute. The Apostle Paul claimed to be a blasphemer before conversion, yet he lived a very upright sort of life by most people's standards and did all the required things, while refusing the wrong.

Reading the Psalms recently I noticed that the Psalmist said on occasion to God that he had sinned but he had not done that wicked thing. Take a look at some of the Psalms. He was also chastised for his sin. Repeatedly, though, he made claim that he had not done wickedly as other had and do. Does that give us an excuse? definitely not! but we can get to know the God we trust a little better as we read the Scriptures and meditate on His word.

Thank you for this thread @B-A-C


Again, everyone, take some time and read the whole of Hebrews. (even the olde archaic KJV is an easy read once you get your teeth into it and start savoring the meal)


Bless you ....><>
 
It was said earlier a house can't be divided. Wrong. Any house can be divided, resulting in it's fall. The scripture posits the condition "if" a house is divided. Jesus was pointing out that Satan's house would fall if divided by supporting that he did some good thing the Holy Spirit wrought. Satan's house depends upon having credit for what Satan does. To smear the work of the Holy Spirit like that is to insult the Holy Spirit, Jesus the godhead bodily who was and is eternally, and the Father God, all coexistent and separately, yet ONE. Only the bodily Jesus could ever be seen. The Spirit was over earth at creation, all three present to make man, the Spirit upon (anointing) eople serving God, all three present at the water baptism of Jesus. Three who testify.
'' Satan's house depends upon having credit for what Satan does. To smear the work of the Holy Spirit is to insult the Holy Spirit'' = crediting the devil for works of the Holy Spirit = unpardonable sin = inserted assumption. It can be, don't get me wrong. It is a type of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. But it is not the underlying reason for the unpardonable sin. It is just ludicrous.You and BAC are making scripture say something it does not.

On to Hebrews 10:28-31 (KJV)
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath


counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath

done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Notice the person was sanctified by the blood of Jesus. WAS sanctified! Only a believer can become an apostate.

What do you consider to be trodding underfoot the Son of God?

What do you consider doing despite to the Spirit of grace?
Unbelievers can be sanctified.

1 Cor 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

Christianity = We are justified by our faith in Christ. Gal 2:16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

The point being made in Heb 10:29 is that those who have properly tasted Jesus and then outright rejected Him, have no hope. It is a verse inline with the unpardonable sin. It is not talking about those who have laid their lives down for Jesus and been given faith in Jesus 1 Cor 12:3.

Where does any sin lifestyle get excused?
Lifestyle no. Mistakes of sin, yes. 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Venial sins can be mistaken for lifestyle. But for these a scripture like Matt 18:22 applies as there can still be sincere repentance.

I truly don't know how it is that some can just not grasp that only God is good Mark 10:18.
 
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I use to be anti OSAS because of this passage.

But you have to properly read this passage. Paul is making a point, not making a statement in stone. He is saying ''hypothetical speaking / suppose ye'' what kind of punishment a person who has been sanctified by His blood deserves. Heb 10:29 ''Do you suppose will he be thought worthy''. IE It is clear that someone who does this was never a Christian. So don't be fooled by wicked people calling themselves Christians. It is also making the point that someone who has properly tasted of Jesus and then gone back to their old ways, has no hope.

Paul's preaching is full of such examples. Look at 1 Cor 6:9-11 where he says ''these people will not be in heaven''. Look at 1 Cor 5:1 where he says ''a brother committing a sin that not even the pagans do''. 1 Cor 5:9 ''Not to even associate with brothers and sisters in sexual immorality''.

When we only pick verses like 1 Cor 5:1 and ignore 1 Cor 5:11 ''claims to be a brother''. Or Heb 10:29 and ignore 1 John 3:9 'Whosoever is born of God does not sin''. Or 1 Cor 6:9-11 and ignore 1 Cor 6:1-8 'judge properly'. We are teaching a half truth.

Paul's preaching style was not confrontational to the unsaved in church attendance. He spoke to all in the same manner. He did not isolate Christians. His teaching on sin did that.
 
Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I use to be anti OSAS because of this passage.

But you have to properly read this passage. Paul is making a point, not making a statement in stone. He is saying ''hypothetical speaking / suppose ye'' what kind of punishment a person who has been sanctified by His blood deserves. Heb 10:29 ''Do you suppose will he be thought worthy''. IE It is clear that someone who does this was never a Christian. So don't be fooled by wicked people calling themselves Christians. It is also making the point that someone who has properly tasted of Jesus and then gone back to their old ways, has no hope.

Paul's preaching is full of such examples. Look at 1 Cor 6:9-11 where he says ''these people will not be in heaven''. Look at 1 Cor 5:1 where he says ''a brother committing a sin that not even the pagans do''. 1 Cor 5:9 ''Not to even associate with brothers and sisters in sexual immorality''.

When we only pick verses like 1 Cor 5:1 and ignore 1 Cor 5:11 ''claims to be a brother''. Or Heb 10:29 and ignore 1 John 3:9 'Whosoever is born of God does not sin''. Or 1 Cor 6:9-11 and ignore 1 Cor 6:1-8 'judge properly'. We are teaching a half truth.

Paul's preaching style was not confrontational to the unsaved in church attendance. He spoke to all in the same manner. He did not isolate Christians. His teaching on sin did that.

(Heb. 10:26) is written to believers. In this case, Jewish believers. As with the whole book of Hebrews.

See post [HASH=1800]#(17[/HASH]). You understand (Heb. 10:26) by understanding the purpose of the whole chapter of (Heb. 10).

The warnings in the book of Hebrews are to believers. And they are serious. But they are not teaching a loss of salvation. Note it says in (10:30), "The Lord shall judge his people." His people.

Quantrill
 
Greetings,

I'm not picking on you but can you please tell me or remind me where such a statement is found in Scripture?


Bless you ....><>

There are two cleansings of the believer provided by Christ. One is by blood. One is by water. Both were present at the sacrifice of Christ. (John 19:34)

The blood washes away our sins. (Heb. 9:22) (Eph. 5:25) (Titus 3:5) The water cleanses us from the daily defilement of the world. (Eph. 5:26)

Jesus gave us a living example of this in (John 13:5-10). Jesus was washing the disciples feet. Peter would have none of it. Jesus said if I don't wash your feet you have no part with me. Peter said, then wash me all over. Jesus said you are already clean and don't need to be washed all over again. Just your feet. (13:10) "Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit:..."

Quantrill
 
Greetings again and thank you for getting back to me.

It is the 'daily' part I was interested in.


Bless you ....><>
 
The Corinthian church was full of division. (1 Cor. 1:10-17) Full of immaturity. (2:2) Full of carnality. (3:1) Full of Fornication, coveting, idolater, railers, drunkards, and extortioners. (5:1) (5:11) So, no. I am not contesting the written record.

The Corinthian Church was at that time a baby Christian congregation, not "full" of sin. It's common for modern churches to have significant populations of various belief groups. In one church half the people grow tired of the new style of worhsip music, rap, loudness, big drums and a light show of all colors, so go eat breakfast together until the preaching hour. Much of what was reported of them is actually expected behavior, not sin. Some members have grown to trust a well spoken highly educated doctor of divinity, not wanting to hear a common speaker even though that one is more spiritually minded. Why would it be sin if the folks preferred one preacher over another? When the churches I've belonged to had to replace a preacher, they all have several "try out" and be searched out. Nowadays it's common to do an NCIC check, encouraged by police. They had multiple preachers coming by, each more appealing to some. One might preach the milk of the word, another trying to bring them into full maturity. Then they are voted on and "called". That's the kind of stuff of what 1 Cor 1 is mostly about.

As for 1 Cor 2, what you call "immaturity" was simply that that city was a major trading center full of culture, temples, wealth, and polished orators who excited hearers with high-minded ideas. Paul was saying he never tried to compete with that, but stuck to preaching the "foolishness" of Christ crucified. No doubt many complained about Paul's appearance and message being to common, all one subject, Christ, a reason other preachers might be preferred as greater orators. Paul continued to explain his ministry, that since they knew nothing about Jews nor Jesus it was vital to stick to milk of the word as though for babies, who could not handle the meat until raised up. I have witnessed churches that cycled though members by attrition, the first group dying or otherwise unable to attend, replaced by folks who never had Sunday School classes, or some switching from another denomination, and many other causes of significant ignorance of Christian ways. one of that is considered sin, and if spiritual immaturity is a sin, probably the majority of Christians are in sin would you say?

Seeing that part of that post was a mischaracterization of those people who are sometimes described by modern speakers as a building full of very wicked people sacrificing babies on the altar and doing every possible sin as a part of worship, it is necessary to deal with the presumption that taints the rest of this post. Some of them were formerly of that crowd doing some of the highly immoral things before being born again.

Exactly right. Today's Christian experience is the same as yesterdays. The same as the Corinthian believers. Ones being declared saved by God and ones availability for service are two different things. You miss the point completely of what I said. Paul says, in (1 Cor. 6:11), "such were some of you" . This means of course that they are not now that because they have been 'washed, sanctified, and justified'. Their sins have been washed away, because they have been sanctified, because they have been justified. You are trying to identify the person by what they do. God identifies the person by who they are. So, God solidifies who the person is and then begins the process of cleaning up the person. Just because the person still needs cleansing up, doesn't take away from who he is. Thus Paul says to the Corinthians, "Such were some of you". Not any more, though they still are sinning in these things.

In other words, the Corinthians sins did not change who they were. They certainly needed encouragement and chastisement for these sins, but they did not change who they were in Christ.

Here is His judgment concerning people who continue to do certain sins, without a qualification that those once sanctified are excused because all past, present, and future sins are washed away. How would that work if that person is found doing:
Revelation 21:6-8 (KJV)
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful,
and unbelieving,
and the abominable,
and murderers,
and whoremongers,
and sorcerers,
and idolaters,
and all liars,
shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Yes, in the midst of our sins. If it is not in the midst of our sins, how is it grace?

Grace is not there to excuse people to add sin to sins washed away. It is well explained this way
Galatians 2:15-21 (KJV)
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


The law cares nothing about 'habitual' or 'one time'. It is a sin, or sins. Either way you don't make it. As I said, God has created such a salvation that He can call those things that are not as though they were. (Rom. 4:17) He can say of Israel, (Num. 23:21), "He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel:..." But there was iniquity and perverseness in Israel. Go back and read the history prior to this statement. But what does God say? I don't see it. How can He say that? Because He has provided the salvation that removes such from His sight. It is not that it is not there. It is that He has taken care of it.

Perish the thought that God would stand up in defense of a person claiming to be His child, who has a "problem" of selling dangerous drugs to school children walking to school. Just a "mistake"? He would continue to hold that person, who introduces children to a horrible lifestyle of drug abuse and brain damage, slavery, and horrible deaths is still justified in Christ because there was a time when the drug dealer believed the gospel and repented of that crime?

No. Not possible. Grace doesn't allow a sinner to keep returning to his vomit like a dog and still please God or expect blessings from Him.

The dog eating his own vomit and the sow being cleansed is a poor example. Believers are not dogs, or pigs. The dog and pig are those who are not believers but cleaned themselves up. Looks good before man. Means nothing to God. Believers are sheep.

Proverbs 26:11-12 (KJV)
11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.


That is repeated by Peter concerning such as false teachers and other backsliders, using that proverb to have such people "like" dogs and pigs.
.
2 Peter 2:19-22 (KJV)
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Your description of drug addicts and those with life controlling sins not experiencing grace because they didn't get away from it, is quite appalling. This is why I always say, grace preached by many is not grace at all. It is just more law. By grace we are saved. God has us at that point. Then begins the life of cleansing. Some do well and get out. Some not so well. That doesn't discount their salvation in Christ. And, whether you know it or not, you are in no better shape 'grace' wise then the worst drug addict, drunkard, fornicator, etc.. It took grace to save you also, and it takes grace to keep you just like it does them.
We are declared righteous because all our sin has been remitted by Christ.

Will you then say Paul was teaching LAW in the following?
Hebrews 6:1-8 (KJV)
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those
who were once enlightened,
and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
 
There are two cleansings of the believer provided by Christ. One is by blood. One is by water. Both were present at the sacrifice of Christ. (John 19:34)

The blood washes away our sins. (Heb. 9:22) (Eph. 5:25) (Titus 3:5) The water cleanses us from the daily defilement of the world. (Eph. 5:26)

Jesus gave us a living example of this in (John 13:5-10). Jesus was washing the disciples feet. Peter would have none of it. Jesus said if I don't wash your feet you have no part with me. Peter said, then wash me all over. Jesus said you are already clean and don't need to be washed all over again. Just your feet. (13:10) "Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit:..."

Quantrill

I think you ought to have posted more context to get the application right.
John 13:4-21 (KJV)
4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.
5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.
6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit:..............


and ye are clean, but not all.
11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.


Jesus washed all His disciples feet, as was the Jewish custom before a meal, to remove the dust from feet. He washed Judas' feet, dried them with His towel. But that left Judas unclean, for he had allowed Satan to enter in and use him. So how is it that when one is washed by the Lord, by the reading of scripture daily, that one remained a guilty traitor? Jesus lost that disciple who had experienced all that the others had seen and heard except the crucifixion and resurrection.

We are daily here washing feet. Let us.
 
The Corinthian Church was at that time a baby Christian congregation, not "full" of sin. It's common for modern churches to have significant populations of various belief groups. In one church half the people grow tired of the new style of worhsip music, rap, loudness, big drums and a light show of all colors, so go eat breakfast together until the preaching hour. Much of what was reported of them is actually expected behavior, not sin. Some members have grown to trust a well spoken highly educated doctor of divinity, not wanting to hear a common speaker even though that one is more spiritually minded. Why would it be sin if the folks preferred one preacher over another? When the churches I've belonged to had to replace a preacher, they all have several "try out" and be searched out. Nowadays it's common to do an NCIC check, encouraged by police. They had multiple preachers coming by, each more appealing to some. One might preach the milk of the word, another trying to bring them into full maturity. Then they are voted on and "called". That's the kind of stuff of what 1 Cor 1 is mostly about.

As for 1 Cor 2, what you call "immaturity" was simply that that city was a major trading center full of culture, temples, wealth, and polished orators who excited hearers with high-minded ideas. Paul was saying he never tried to compete with that, but stuck to preaching the "foolishness" of Christ crucified. No doubt many complained about Paul's appearance and message being to common, all one subject, Christ, a reason other preachers might be preferred as greater orators. Paul continued to explain his ministry, that since they knew nothing about Jews nor Jesus it was vital to stick to milk of the word as though for babies, who could not handle the meat until raised up. I have witnessed churches that cycled though members by attrition, the first group dying or otherwise unable to attend, replaced by folks who never had Sunday School classes, or some switching from another denomination, and many other causes of significant ignorance of Christian ways. one of that is considered sin, and if spiritual immaturity is a sin, probably the majority of Christians are in sin would you say?

Seeing that part of that post was a mischaracterization of those people who are sometimes described by modern speakers as a building full of very wicked people sacrificing babies on the altar and doing every possible sin as a part of worship, it is necessary to deal with the presumption that taints the rest of this post. Some of them were formerly of that crowd doing some of the highly immoral things before being born again.



Here is His judgment concerning people who continue to do certain sins, without a qualification that those once sanctified are excused because all past, present, and future sins are washed away. How would that work if that person is found doing:
Revelation 21:6-8 (KJV)
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful,
and unbelieving,
and the abominable,
and murderers,
and whoremongers,
and sorcerers,
and idolaters,
and all liars,
shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.




Grace is not there to excuse people to add sin to sins washed away. It is well explained this way
Galatians 2:15-21 (KJV)
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.




Perish the thought that God would stand up in defense of a person claiming to be His child, who has a "problem" of selling dangerous drugs to school children walking to school. Just a "mistake"? He would continue to hold that person, who introduces children to a horrible lifestyle of drug abuse and brain damage, slavery, and horrible deaths is still justified in Christ because there was a time when the drug dealer believed the gospel and repented of that crime?

No. Not possible. Grace doesn't allow a sinner to keep returning to his vomit like a dog and still please God or expect blessings from Him.



Proverbs 26:11-12 (KJV)
11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
12 Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him.


That is repeated by Peter concerning such as false teachers and other backsliders, using that proverb to have such people "like" dogs and pigs.
.
2 Peter 2:19-22 (KJV)
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.



Will you then say Paul was teaching LAW in the following?
Hebrews 6:1-8 (KJV)
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
4 For it is impossible for those
who were once enlightened,
and have tasted of the heavenly gift,
and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Nothing wrong with immaturity, if you are at an age where you should be immature. The Corinthian Church should have grown out of that but had not. Thus you become a problem church. You become somewhat retarded, as you physically grow older but spiritually remain an infant. The verse everyone loves to glow and bask in, as though they are great defenders of Christ, is found in (1 Cor. 2:2) "For I determined not to know any thing among you save Jesus Christ, and him crucified." As though this is a badge of loyalty and courage. When in actuality, it is a chastisement against them. Paul is saying I have to go back to the basics with yall. I have to go back to the A, B, C's. I have to treat you like children. Why? Because they should have already progressed beyond that...but they did not. So Paul has to treat them like babies. Must find a pacifier for them. (1 Cor. 3:1) "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ." So, no mischaractarization.

Concerning (Rev. 21:6-8) , it works just as it did in (1 Cor. 6:11) "And such were some of you:..." And, (1 Cor. 6:11) "...but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified...". Concerning the overcomer in (Rev. 21:7), see (1 John 5:5) "Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God."

Concerning (Gal. 2:15-21) why do you put your comments in red along with Scripture? Is it to influence through deception? Think pretty highly of yourself? Or just an error on your part? I'm sure the latter. But, concerning (Gal. 2:15-21) I have no problem.

Concerning (Heb. 6:1-8), no, Paul was not teaching the Law.

Quantrill
 
Last edited:
I think you ought to have posted more context to get the application right.
John 13:4-21 (KJV)
4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.
5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.
6 Then cometh he to Simon Peter: and Peter saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet?
7 Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt know hereafter.
8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit:..............


and ye are clean, but not all.
11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?
13 Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am.
14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.
15 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
17 If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.
18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
21 When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.


Jesus washed all His disciples feet, as was the Jewish custom before a meal, to remove the dust from feet. He washed Judas' feet, dried them with His towel. But that left Judas unclean, for he had allowed Satan to enter in and use him. So how is it that when one is washed by the Lord, by the reading of scripture daily, that one remained a guilty traitor? Jesus lost that disciple who had experienced all that the others had seen and heard except the crucifixion and resurrection.

We are daily here washing feet. Let us.

Judas problem was that he was never washed the first time. Jesus said in (John 13:10) "...He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet...." But Judas was never clean from the first washing of regeneration. "...and ye are clean, but not all" Thus the daily washing had no influence upon Judas. Jesus lost none who were His or God's. Though Judas followed Christ, for all the wrong reasons, he was never one of Christ's.

Quantrill
 
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