Thoughts on Job

[Hekuran]

Then you need to read the Book of Job. It's there

Aside from the fear of the lord, the only reference is in chapter 3 when Job says that his greatest fears have been realised. Nowhere does it say that the calamity is due to fear - or have I missed something?

 

[Bendito]

Satan was the only angel God questioned over even being at the meeting. Satan was and still is the Accuser of the brethren. Of all people on earth God could brag on His friend Job, doubtless knowing Satan was there on that account, and not as claimed just roaming earth. No other topic was brought up from Satan. Satan came there knowing exactly what Job was about, was able to discuss him with God. That's a perfect picture of a modern prosecuting attorney having already made available facts of a case to a defense attorney, before taking the case to court. It's like a lawman is permitted to let a suspect talk without counsel, allowing him to say incriminating words, which allows probable cause to search a vehicle for evidence of a confessed crime. There was nothing wrong with the lawman bringing up a conversation matter that he knows might cause the suspect to tip his hand. So what was at all wrong for God to bring up Job? God can't lie or sin.

Since Satan was defeated in the case of Underworld v. Job. Might that have been God's plan, while remaining Righteous, letting Satan hang himself? In the end God was also Just concerning losses not by His hand.

Since we are now speculating some, I'll think God already knew Satan wanted to get to Job because of that hedge of protection, but couldn't, so came there with accusations against God and Job. When someone is falsely accused in a court, it's proper to prove a false accusation is wrong, though the accused is unwise to try being his own defense attorney. God could just make it go away, but chose to prove his approval of Job. He didn't raise a finger against Job, but let the hedge down, allowing Satan to touch Job, there being no general covenant giving a moral right, even for God, to give the one man divine protection.

Satan said in verse 5: Job 2:5-6 (KJV)
5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

God said instead:
6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

Where does it say Job's original children died and "went on to be with God"? What covenant promise made that possible? Perhaps they went to Paradise to await Jesus' preaching the gospel, not having a clue what was happening or to happen. There's also the death of practically all of Job's servants who were not likely among the drinking and eating folks.

As for God managing accusations from Satan His way, you would have to include true accusations in the process of managing that. I have no doubt Satan is still accusing Christians who have hidden sin, and seeks to destroy the upright. It isn't that when those accusations come is when God learns about issues. He already knows. But when the Devil learns it, one's life could get rough while that gets sorted out, instead of confessing to God and repenting, choosing His hand of grace. That brings up quite a list of topics to discuss!

I agree with what you wrote that I didn't challenge.

And why else would Satan walk up and down in the Earth?
1 Peter 5:8

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

 

[Chad4Him]

LOL I love it when you come into our discussions. You always are easy to relate to and not abusive and know it all. Hugs on you.

It's just pixels on a screen bro.. I refuse to let them have dominion over me and my peace. :grin:

 

[Dovegiven]

Well, for reasons not given, God allowed calamity to fall on Job and his household. The important thing is how Job and his friends responded to the disaster.

And what do you find objectionable about Job's friends' advice?

Reasons were brought up in chapter one and elsewhere in the book. God didn't bring up Job's sacrifices or supposed fear as being sin, and neither did Satan. If Job was sinning through fear, Satan would have had a strong case. Job was totally innocent before God from start to finish according to God, especially considering how little Word of God Job had revealed to him. The friends sought to establish a religious dialogue based on logic and reason for Job to live by, much like modern Christians often do instead of knowing the Word of God for themselves and teaching that. What those men did was equal to the making of the many world religions, men attempting to explain and pursue matters of divinity.

 

[Dovegiven]

And why else would Satan walk up and down in the Earth?
1 Peter 5:8

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

True.

 

[Dovegiven]

It's just pixels on a screen bro.. I refuse to let them have dominion over me and my peace. :grin:

I enjoy this so much, wishing I could get involved more. It affords all the more Bible study. It's a little risky to discus such things live, seeing red faces and trembling lips build up, broken spirits sometimes because topics just get slammed shut before one's case can be made properly. Here I can 'cool off' by looking at devotional posts with a glass of apple cider vinegar water and lemon peel. :wink: Not for self punishment, but for health benefits.....

 

[Dovegiven]

No, let me explain myself - in the first paragraph I was talking about spiritual temptations (temptations to sin). The devil cannot conquer us or make us sin. He can only tempt. (EDIT: there is also the verse of being tempted because of our own lusts).

In the second paragraph I was talking about natural disasters or accidents or other tragedies. I do not believe that this is related to how we are living our Christian lives but rather that God is with us through these disasters and can comfort us. I am not saying that because I am wimping out or having fear but rather because I look for a better kingdom to come and we are not promised an easy life.

I know you disagree with that but we will just have to agree to disagree there. :smile:

I won't repent for agreeing with that. Not everything happens by direction of God or Satan, but sometimes things just rot and fail, falling down. Or people are just out of place when, like happened for some workers in the towers on 9/11/01 who decided for various reasons to stay home that day, leave on a chore early, being late for work or on vacation, etc.
Luke 13:1-5 (KJV)
1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

 

[Bendito]

Aside from the fear of the lord, the only reference is in chapter 3 when Job says that his greatest fears have been realised. Nowhere does it say that the calamity is due to fear - or have I missed something?

Unfortunately We don't know what else Job said. Unfortunately it would be his 'WORDS' that would have caused the hedge to come down. The thing is though....Job acting on fear instead of faith was the mistake. The Word says that Job was blameless and upright. It's important to know that blameless and upright is how God saw Job even then, when Job was acting in fear....Blameless and upright is how He sees us; even when we are acting in fear too.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Yes, it was.

You seem to forget that Job had a hedge about his home at this time, from God, that was a frustration to satan.

Quantrill

Hello Brother,
In a matter of speaking Satan was saying to God that it was only the hedge of protection that was surrounding Job and not his free will that had him righteous and faithful to Him. We see what happens to Job as a test of his faithfulness to God as conditional to circumstances, while in a way it was Satan testing God on how much He actually knew of His own Creation. Testing God's knowledge base, or why would he believe he could defeat Him and take His position in the first place?

Sometimes I wonder if we fully trust God that He knows what He is doing, or unknowingly question like Satan, that He really doesn't know us? Which then tells me in thought concerning this story of Job if we believe that God not only has the knowledge and power to do as He wills, but does he have the right to do so, as it pertains to His Creation?

Your thoughts brother?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Bendito]

I enjoy this so much, wishing I could get involved more. It affords all the more Bible study. It's a little risky to discus such things live, seeing red faces and trembling lips build up, broken spirits sometimes because topics just get slammed shut before one's case can be made properly. Here I can 'cool off' by looking at devotional posts with a glass of apple cider vinegar water and lemon peel. :wink: Not for self punishment, but for health benefits.....

Nope. Its a form of self flagellation......LOL I use about an ounce of apple cider vinegar, a good was of raw honey and hot water to fill the cup. It clears congestion and stuff...Does lots tha good!

 

[Bendito]

Hello Brother,
In a matter of speaking Satan was saying to God that it was only the hedge of protection that was surrounding Job and not his free will that had him righteous and faithful to Him. We see what happens to Job as a test of his faithfulness to God as conditional to circumstances, while in a way it was Satan testing God on how much He actually knew of His own Creation. Testing God's knowledge base, or why would he believe he could defeat Him and take His position in the first place?

Sometimes I wonder if we fully trust God that He knows what He is doing, or unknowingly question like Satan, that He really doesn't know us? Which then tells me in thought concerning this story of Job if we believe that God not only has the knowledge and power to do as He wills, but does he have the right to do so, as it pertains to His Creation?

Your thoughts brother?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

Satan himself, being a created being was not all knowing. He may hot have known that Job had left himself unprotected.

 

[Hekuran]

Unfortunately We don't know what else Job said. Unfortunately it would be his 'WORDS' that would have caused the hedge to come down. The thing is though....Job acting on fear instead of faith was the mistake. The Word says that Job was blameless and upright. It's important to know that blameless and upright is how God saw Job even then, when Job was acting in fear....Blameless and upright is how He sees us; even when we are acting in fear too.

That Job was acting in fear is your assumption. I don't see it in the text.

 

[Bendito]

That Job was acting in fear is your assumption. I don't see it in the text.

Bendito shakes his head sadly. Read chapter 1:4
4 It was the custom of his sons to give banquets, each on his set day in his own house; and they would invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them. 5 After a cycle of banquets, Iyov would send for them to come and be consecrated; then he would get up early in the morning and offer burnt offerings for each of them, because Iyov said, “My sons might have sinned and blasphemed God in their thoughts.” This is what Iyov did every time.

Job did this every single time his kids had a party. If he had been operating in faith, he would have had to do that ONCE. And God would have taken care of his kids.....Job was operating in fear.

 

[Hekuran]

Sorry, don't find that at all convincing.

 

[Sue D.]

The book of Job is in the Old Testament -- sacrifices had to be repeated yearly. In Jobs case -- he was responsible for the actions of his kids -- he was a caring, loving, concerned parent. So --he was protecting his kids every time they had their parties. In the New Testament -- the yearly sacrifice was taken care of Permanently by Jesus Christ's once and for all sacrifice of Himself on the cross. But even Now -- it isn't a lack of faith or operating out of fear. It is our concern over our own kids. We lay awake at night until they are safely at home And Then, we relax and go to sleep. It's just how God made parents.

At times God Does allow bad stuff to happen -- because we do live in a broken world AND because we can learn things about ourselves that we apparently need to learn and wouldn't on our own. And -- are we leaning on God ? or on our own.

God IS in charge -- His plan is much bigger than we are. Do we really trust Him?

I'm thinking that in the New Testament -- the Children of Israel -- the parting of the Red Sea -- didn't they actually have to step in the water Before the waters parted for them? They were backed into the geographical wall. The enemy was on their tail -- they'd either sink or swim. As it turned out -- it was Walking on Dry Land. And when the enemy tried the same thing to continue their pursuit -- the waters gushed back down on them and They drowned.

 

[Dovegiven]

Unfortunately We don't know what else Job said. Unfortunately it would be his 'WORDS' that would have caused the hedge to come down. The thing is though....Job acting on fear instead of faith was the mistake. The Word says that Job was blameless and upright. It's important to know that blameless and upright is how God saw Job even then, when Job was acting in fear....Blameless and upright is how He sees us; even when we are acting in fear too.

My problem with that is what you said is definitely New Covenant talk for us, but not for them, then. The only character assassination was from the Liar in Chief. When God commended Job, he was commended, not accused by God.

Now, when we enter into fear, that is sin to Christians, so fear is not acceptable to God, for it displays unbelief. Jesus frequently admonished not to fear.

Again, there was no reference to "fear" in Job, for God said he was innocent.

 

[Dovegiven]

Satan answered God this way, the crux of his case, an accusation against Job and God.
Job 1:9-11 (KJV)
9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Unfortunately all along people tended, and still tend to react to great losses like Satan proposed. Even though most don't even believe in Satan's existence, or a good God, they will blame God, hence my home insurance policy referring to terrible "acts of God". Would God have such confidence in us if a great earthquake came to destroy our homes, lands, churches, financial system, drug stores, and emptied grocery shelves for months or years?

Maybe folks need to try measuring up to Job, then go on to align with Jesus' holiness?

 

[Dovegiven]

The book of Job is in the Old Testament -- sacrifices had to be repeated yearly. In Jobs case -- he was responsible for the actions of his kids -- he was a caring, loving, concerned parent. So --he was protecting his kids every time they had their parties. In the New Testament -- the yearly sacrifice was taken care of Permanently by Jesus Christ's once and for all sacrifice of Himself on the cross. But even Now -- it isn't a lack of faith or operating out of fear. It is our concern over our own kids. We lay awake at night until they are safely at home And Then, we relax and go to sleep. It's just how God made parents.

At times God Does allow bad stuff to happen -- because we do live in a broken world AND because we can learn things about ourselves that we apparently need to learn and wouldn't on our own. And -- are we leaning on God ? or on our own.

God IS in charge -- His plan is much bigger than we are. Do we really trust Him?

I'm thinking that in the New Testament -- the Children of Israel -- the parting of the Red Sea -- didn't they actually have to step in the water Before the waters parted for them? They were backed into the geographical wall. The enemy was on their tail -- they'd either sink or swim. As it turned out -- it was Walking on Dry Land. And when the enemy tried the same thing to continue their pursuit -- the waters gushed back down on them and They drowned.

A correction. In the times of Genesis God never required annual sacrifices. He accepted voluntary sacrifices, and called on a few men to make a special one time sacrifice. Job fell under that period before the Law, for nothing in Job proves the Law of Moses was in effect then.

If God is "in control", then He would be part to such things as some Central American men sexually abusing children on their way north. Once here some of them use purchased/kidnapped very young children as bait, left on a roadside at night, surely noticed by a concerned motorist. They will have a note identifying them with an address. If the motorist takes the child to that address, they are currently subject to horrifying abuse themselves. It's happening this week, enough for the Sheriff Dept. to issue a BOLO warning the public to call 911, monitor the child for safety and keep lights flashing, stay in the car until more motorists accumulate, render a group care on site. God is not in charge of that sin problem, but allows it because the sin of the nation allows such people to do such things with light punishment if caught and convicted. The newer problem now is they can't be arrested so easily out of fear of profiling charges. We are really messed up. God help us.

God is in charge for each of us who put Him in charge as a conscious decision. In the last days God will take over with full control. He does not direct the lives of unrepentant sinners. Satan does by lying to them, and them believing the lies.

 

[Quantrill]

Exactly!! Natural response, human nature which is FLESH.




No I have spoke about it often.
The hedge as satan called it is the Blessing of The Lord.
This is what satan had been trying to get through for Years.

Once Job put forth action into his fear and worry it removed him out of the Blessing or hedge. That is why satan got access.

As I said before, you need to understand how our enemy works.

Worry and Fear come from him. They are blessing blockers and totally opposed to Faith and Gods Word.

God found no fault with Job. Just Jobs friends, and you and your friends do.

My comment about you forgetting the hedge was in response to you saying Job was getting attacked with the firey darts of satan and was doubting and fearing. Thus I wanted to remind you, that could not be the case as God had a hedge about him. See?

Blessing blockers? How old are you? That is the kind of thing you read in Sunday School elementary classes.

Quantrill

 

[Christ4Ever]

Satan himself, being a created being was not all knowing. He may hot have known that Job had left himself unprotected.

That is a possibility, but I don't read that in the exchange between God & Satan.

And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD. Job 1:8-12

The implication that I see that Satan is trying to get out of God by saying "Doth Job fear God for nought?" is that Job's fear is not of God which is healthy, but what God has done and could remove from Job. I'll let Satan words speak to that "Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side?". So that it's not fear of God which as I said before is a healthy one to have, which is ID'd in Proverbs 8:13 "The fear of the LORD [is] to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate." and Proverbs 9:10 "The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy [is] understanding." which is confirmed in Job 28:28 "And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that [is] wisdom; and to depart from evil [is] understanding. but Satan being the liar that he is, as seen in John 8:44 "Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." was never about speaking the truth, but truly a deception to get at Job.

What might have motivated him was the reason I posted what I did and only conjecture on my part, but I don't think that God was unaware of Satan's game, but to show Satan that truth will always shine brighter and cast out darkness try as he might to show otherwise He told Satan "And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath [is] in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand.".

This is really also a foreshadowing of Jesus and Him in us. We have victory in Jesus (1 Corinthians 15:57) who is the Light of the World (John 8:12) and we too in Him are to be lights unto the world (Matthew 5:14). However, this still doesn't mean that we are not attacked or that trials and tribulations won't be coming our way in this world, but in Christ Jesus we are not to worry and in fact should count it a joy (John 16:33; James 1:2 NKJV). We are forewarned, but Job was not, so our heart really should go out to what he experienced. For we feel for each other and should be there for one another unlike Job's friends who were accusatory (Romans 12:15).

So, like Job we may yet suffer for doing good, keeping in mind that our Lord was no exception to this. (1 Peter 3:17-18)

Wow, I could go on, with comparisons of Job to us and the differences that we have, how we look at it, and most especially a common ground due to the faithfulness of God. I just hope I wasn't too convoluted in what I am trying to say dear brother.

With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother Bendito and anyone else who may read these words.
YBIC
Nick
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