JesusIs4Me
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Maybe I should ask, what is supposed to be the difference between Pentecostals and Charismatics? It seems there is a blurring or a blending between the two, and so I am wondering if the majority between them even know?
What Is the Difference Between Pentecostal & Charismatics?
- Thread starter JesusIs4Me
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this human
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As far as I can observe, there are all of us mere humans and there is the One: God/Jesus, the Christ/Messiah, who is more.
Many years ago I visited a Pentecostal church because it was very close to my house -- we'd just moved and I wanted to take the kids 'somewhere' and I'd been curious about Pentecostalism.
In That particular church , there was supposed 'speaking in tongues' from an older man sitting with his wife in back of the auditorium. And down front -- there was apparently a 'slaying of the spirit' taking place.
The pastor was using his voice to get everyone 'emotional' and 'let the Spirit take over'. I'd gone for 3 different services and it was the same.
In contrast -- I'd grown up in a very large, Bible-teaching, conservative Baptist church. During some of the services, pastor would be preaching Bible and the presence of the Holy Spirit could be felt. People Were coming down to the front of the church to or already having had accepting Christ as their personal Savior. This was not happening in All the services -- God would be using His Word through the preaching of His Word as He deemed appropriate -- in His time.
And, maybe , in reality Pentecostal church are the same as Charismatic churches. The root word is 'charisma' ?-- more emotionally based. Put much more emphasis on the Holy Spirit. Speaking in tongues. Sometimes a person who is emotionally worked up will make decisions in the heighth Of emotions that they don't really mean when they are calmer. And some get 'hooked' on wanting an emotional 'high' which is Not healthy. Life is Usually lived on a much less emotional frame of mind.
Easy believism -- dangerous.
In That particular church , there was supposed 'speaking in tongues' from an older man sitting with his wife in back of the auditorium. And down front -- there was apparently a 'slaying of the spirit' taking place.
The pastor was using his voice to get everyone 'emotional' and 'let the Spirit take over'. I'd gone for 3 different services and it was the same.
In contrast -- I'd grown up in a very large, Bible-teaching, conservative Baptist church. During some of the services, pastor would be preaching Bible and the presence of the Holy Spirit could be felt. People Were coming down to the front of the church to or already having had accepting Christ as their personal Savior. This was not happening in All the services -- God would be using His Word through the preaching of His Word as He deemed appropriate -- in His time.
And, maybe , in reality Pentecostal church are the same as Charismatic churches. The root word is 'charisma' ?-- more emotionally based. Put much more emphasis on the Holy Spirit. Speaking in tongues. Sometimes a person who is emotionally worked up will make decisions in the heighth Of emotions that they don't really mean when they are calmer. And some get 'hooked' on wanting an emotional 'high' which is Not healthy. Life is Usually lived on a much less emotional frame of mind.
Easy believism -- dangerous.
TheTruthWithin37
Member
Pentecostals don't obey Jesus, too focused on other things rather than simple obedience to the things he taught. Acting emotional brings us farther from God, " Know ye that not the unrighteous shall not eneter the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate - shall inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6: 9-10
Dovegiven
Active
The emotional draw leads to deeper commitments, such as appointment to duties like teaching Sunday School lessons and leading home groups. Once begun, the member of a Pentescostal church falls under scrutiny, or used to, I don't know for certain now. Twenty years ago the member was subject to surprise visits to evaluate one's life. Our first attachment to that denomination in the 1970's made possession of a TV a sin. Later, after a few denominational changes, the contents of the refrigerator were checked for alcoholic beverages. Wardrobes were examined to be sure dress was appropriate. When they searched our TV program setup I began to reconsider the latest ten year relationship between other denominational ties. We eventually exeted, unhappy with the control aspects, then with the exit pressure phenominon characteristic of cultism. Cultism arises as a security against outside change forces.
I fully understand why the United Pentecostal Church denomination did those things concerning leaders. They sought to preserve "This we believe" doctrines. So do the Southern Baptists and probably many others. The Charismatic movement was a departure from cultish controls that stiffled spontaneous spiritual experiences, collecting many like me who had enough of "religion" that tended to over-regulate true worship.
I fully understand why the United Pentecostal Church denomination did those things concerning leaders. They sought to preserve "This we believe" doctrines. So do the Southern Baptists and probably many others. The Charismatic movement was a departure from cultish controls that stiffled spontaneous spiritual experiences, collecting many like me who had enough of "religion" that tended to over-regulate true worship.
amadeus2
Loyal
That seems to be rather arbitrarily comprehensive. I have attended and belonged to several church groups over the years identifying themselves as Pentecostal. I am certain there were always some who strived by surrender to God to obey whatever He had for them to do. But perhaps you have met every one of them to be able to be so certain that none of them are obeying the Lord? How well do you know me?
Correlating the emotionalism, in this case of Pentecostal to 1 Cor 6:9-10 and what it states to specifically "fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate" is just plain wrong. So, you might have had a bad experience in one of their churches, or feel after study of how Pentecostalism started that it is wrong. I just won't toss Scripture out there to see if it sticks, because you might as well state this for every church. Keep searching for that perfect church/denomination, but something tells me you won't find it, if you're not a part of it already.
@ Dovegiven -- that sounds like a lot of legalism -- a pastor or teacher Should be held to a higher standard. Possessing a TV being a sin? My home is my private property. Now - granted -- when a pastor and family lived in the church owned home -- church people Assumed they could 'come calling' any time. Their home was to be 'spotless' - kids or no kids. And it's true that a pastor has been called to serve the people in the congregation.
There are those who 'work better' with a list of do's and don'ts in their lives They don't appreciate the relationship we gain to God through Jesus Christ.
The TV situation -- I grew up with TV back in the days when programs were family friendly. The quality of programming over time has digressed considerably. But that's still the decision of the people living in the home.
Having said all of this -- a person attending a Pentecostal church is not forced to go there. The leadership is there because they feel led to be there.
According to the New Testament -- Christian liberty is Biblical. 'Everything' is permissable but Not everything is profitable for the person. We Are to do those things that bring glory to God. And our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit so we don't want to do things , go places that would dishonor our body. The body of the born-again believer is a temple of the Holy Spirit.
God created us as emotional people -- so, therefore, emotions are Not evil -- acting on emotions is not evil. Emotionalism in a church service -- brought on by the pastor is not really Biblical. When the Holy Spirit is working in a person's life / heart while in a church service , there probably Will be emotions expressed. And there are people who Are more emotional than others and some - like me- aren't.
There are those who 'work better' with a list of do's and don'ts in their lives They don't appreciate the relationship we gain to God through Jesus Christ.
The TV situation -- I grew up with TV back in the days when programs were family friendly. The quality of programming over time has digressed considerably. But that's still the decision of the people living in the home.
Having said all of this -- a person attending a Pentecostal church is not forced to go there. The leadership is there because they feel led to be there.
According to the New Testament -- Christian liberty is Biblical. 'Everything' is permissable but Not everything is profitable for the person. We Are to do those things that bring glory to God. And our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit so we don't want to do things , go places that would dishonor our body. The body of the born-again believer is a temple of the Holy Spirit.
God created us as emotional people -- so, therefore, emotions are Not evil -- acting on emotions is not evil. Emotionalism in a church service -- brought on by the pastor is not really Biblical. When the Holy Spirit is working in a person's life / heart while in a church service , there probably Will be emotions expressed. And there are people who Are more emotional than others and some - like me- aren't.
Dovegiven
Active
"Pentecostal" has a broad definition. I'll put it this way. John Wesley began the Holiness Movement, which was followed by the Pentecostal movement which was marked by a restoration of spiritual gifts in the church. That movement began in Los Angeles at the Azuza Street revival which lasted 3 years. From there the movement spread across America and on into the world.
Numerous Christian denominations are "pentecostal", having a continuation of operating in various spiritual gifts that largely remained lost or scarce for centuries. The Assemblies of God is one large denomination that's pentecostal, but they don't name themselves pentecostal. When someone asks what the nature of their beliefs are, they are told pentecostal gifts are among the usual statements of faith most churches provide. SOme denominations would avoid visiting because they were taught that movement was of the devil. Odd why that since it was a great blessing in Acts on the Day of Pentecost.
As for emotional acts, King David is in history as very emotional towards the things of God with fierce dancing and contagious shouting. He is not said to be among the evil kings, but was very close to God. Open rejoicing with emotions is evil? You need to let your flesh stand aside when in the presnce of the Lord.
Matthew 11 contains a stern warning from Jesus concerning the dullness of people to recognize the difference between right and wrong behavior even when a great majority (the Jews) contradict a righteous minority (disciples of Christ).
A cause of the next phase of Church movement, the charismatic movement, began an interdenominational emphasis. I vividly remember people of mainline protestant churches coming alongside with Catholics, several Baptist denominations (especially So. Baptist), and many more filling congregations. Oldtime religious practices were filtered out, such as emphasis on Mother Mary, the Papacy, the Mosaic Law. We even had Jews who went to Messianic Judaism to join in on the main focus of New Testament gospel including literal expressions of the origninal Pentecost.
Some denominations have indeed shed some of the Christian principles, becoming errant cults, a major sign of which is difficulty in successfully exiting from a congregation. That to me is a definition of a harmful cult, which seem to get the headlines, causing some folks to conclude represents what you posted.
The unrighteous? Pentecostals and charismatics have experienced congregations of many sorts. I was an active Gideon many years, going church to church mostly on Sundays, until we we were told to never be controversial. Gideons have a specific message, get the Bible spread across the world, which is an honorable goal. My recall of most was a sea of faces that resembled attendees of a funeral. Those were definitely not pentecostaly minded people. Many times I wanted to say "Ya'll look like a lake full of tree stumps sitting just out of the water, growing moss for minnows to feed on." Of course I never said it to them, but problably should have. So many are unchallenged, emotionless, when the whole ought to be standing, jumping, shouting over truth preached in the presnce of the Spirit. Pastors often asked me to jolt them since he couldn't, but maybe a man who won't likely be back could. There are simply too many old folk congregations holding out for a good funeral sermon and burial.
What to look for? A congregation that is ALIVE, not letting preconceived notions get in their way, like an old worn out teaching that tongues, healing, miracles, hands waving to the Lord, and prosperity of health & wealth all died with the last apostle, things now (not) part of Satan's dogma. If that were to have happened, then those would have been guilty of high treason from leaving behind no retractions or disclaimers for their children.
What to look for in a church -- good point. The Word of God should be Alive to people -- spiritual growth -- outreach into the community. Bible doctrine taught. And there needs to order and learning in the service. Nothing done to distract from the Word being taught, heard, learned, put into practice in our daily lives. Our lives Should be attracting people To Christ.
Dovegiven
Active
Another explanation that might help is probably all churches identifying as primarily Pentecostal practice congregational spiritual gifts and are more likely to be a particular denomination that regulates the usage according to a standardized emphasis, while charismatic congregations tend to be non-denominational or inter-denominational. In other words no one denominational background is prominent for the first, while the latter is often a blend of perhaps Baptist and Methodist because of a local happening. One of my favorite was that, formed when a tornado destroyed one church, so the surviving church took in the other. They stayed together, not able to rebuild, no longer claiming Methodist or Baptist, but sharing the basic doctrines easily held in common, known as a Community Church.
I married a Southern Baptist lady in 1967 who was very dedicated to that denomination until she was invited by dear friends to go to Shreveport LA in 1975 to listen to an interesting speaker named Kenneth Copeland. Our So. Baptist church pastor invited all who attended that meeting to leave the church and not return unless recanting. In the business meeting about that all the town's professionals, businessmen and women, got up and left to start a charismatic church which flourished, attractive to many denominations where members were exeriencing the same as we did. Today we are members of a non-denominational church
I have visited many mostly charismatic churches that were formed simply because of the emergence of certain gift practices in perhaps a local baptist church. The usual outcome is the members accepting pentecostal Baptism of the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues or prophesying as valid for today. It's hard to deny once experienced and blessed, so those members typically are rejected, leading to a split in the congregation.
It's a false myth that pentecostals and charismatics characteristically exhibit a lack of control in services. That was a problem in the 1970s-80s when it was all new and members "tried" gifts. Nowadays it's getting rare to hear tongues spoken, or any other gift other than preaching, evangelizing, or teaching. It's sometimes surprising to learn a church is pentecostal in nature., except by manner of worship with people in motion and perhaps singing a scripture song in each their own "tongues". It can be so wonderful that a visitor doesn't easily pick up on whether it is in unknown tongues or one known, thinking they are experiencing a cool new song.
Dovegiven
Active
I left off part of a sentence that is needed.
I wrote "The usual outcome is the members accepting pentecostal Baptism of the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues or prophesying as valid for today." that should have ended with end up being "shunned" or otherwise punished, especially for teachers and other lay ministers who begin believing the scriptures literally, unsettled with denominational limitations. A member can usually stay, but can't be a leader. The idea of not tossing a member out is there is risk of other members following them out, perhaps relatives, or closet pentecostals who love their church too much to leave on their own cause, believing but not practicing anything pentecostal, or folks who should not have to leave when like minded folks leave on a matter of principle. When we left the Baptists in 1976 the folks who stayed went through a series of sermons taking majic markers and instructed to blot out "offensive" verses, never to be read again. They don't do stuff like that now, but it was errors like that driving people that knew better away. Most of the former doctrines are typically retained, though adding some pentecostal elements as they understand them and accept being led of the Spirit to exercise.
I've been Baptist all my life -- and I'm nearly 70. I've Never heard of a Baptist church Ever being instructed to blot out 'offensive' verses. Scripture tells us to Never add or subtract from God's Word. The entirety of Scripture is God breathed / inspired and put there for a reason. Just because a group doesn't like what is being taught in Scripture does Not give authority to disregard it. Upon rereading your post -- you also said they don't do stuff like that Now. Should never have happened in the first place.
I don't like the way some Baptist churches are operating Now. The one I'd been associated with 20 yrs. ago has changed a Lot -- I started going back to it almost 3 yrs. ago. Some years ago when an older pastor went into missions, they'd had a choir and used hymnals and had evenings and Wedn evening Bible study. I was at a few other locations and churches over some years and then felt led to return to that church. With the changes of pastors, they Also gone to Praise and Worship rather than choirs and small groups rather than Sunday night and Wedn. night group Bible study. The Interim pastor chosen This time has shoulder-length hair. He's a University Prof with a Doctorate. I Still don't like Any man in anything but a short-cropped hair cut. And especially Not in the pulpit. Probably shortly after the 1st of the year, the committee will chose a new pastor. IF he has long hair -- I Won't go back.
And women don't have Biblical basis for being behind the pulpit , either. It's based on 'being the husband of one wife'. Kind of hard for a woman to be a husband. Actually Impossible.
And I'm one of those 'literal' people -- God created this world in 6 / 24-hr days. Just like the days we have Now. And the flood of the days of Noah was world-wide not localized.
I don't like the way some Baptist churches are operating Now. The one I'd been associated with 20 yrs. ago has changed a Lot -- I started going back to it almost 3 yrs. ago. Some years ago when an older pastor went into missions, they'd had a choir and used hymnals and had evenings and Wedn evening Bible study. I was at a few other locations and churches over some years and then felt led to return to that church. With the changes of pastors, they Also gone to Praise and Worship rather than choirs and small groups rather than Sunday night and Wedn. night group Bible study. The Interim pastor chosen This time has shoulder-length hair. He's a University Prof with a Doctorate. I Still don't like Any man in anything but a short-cropped hair cut. And especially Not in the pulpit. Probably shortly after the 1st of the year, the committee will chose a new pastor. IF he has long hair -- I Won't go back.
And women don't have Biblical basis for being behind the pulpit , either. It's based on 'being the husband of one wife'. Kind of hard for a woman to be a husband. Actually Impossible.
And I'm one of those 'literal' people -- God created this world in 6 / 24-hr days. Just like the days we have Now. And the flood of the days of Noah was world-wide not localized.
Dovegiven
Active
Way back then most of us SBC adults had not been brainwashed by evolution teaching, so biblical inerrancy was the consensus, with a "who cares" attitude toward how old earth is according to science. Members knew enough Bible to enable Bible discussions, having been dedicated Sunday School members. I took my adult class through a "Through the Bible in a year" plan that required daily reading at home and discussing in class. That class lasted two years, but it was OK. We all came out much the better for it. So we didn't have the characteristic troubles with the rest of the Bible from distorting Genesis.
Slowly evolution overtook plain science, children coming home from college with arguments against the Bible. Parents didn't have creation scientists successfully challenging evolutionists. Those kids are now adults who, if they even attend church, mostly appreciate the social aspects and contemporary music, few found in Sunday School rooms mostly populated by the elderly.
So now with the old mainline churches drying up, with some migration to mega churches, I see the old line Pentecostals of the familiar denominational sort hanging on to the old pre 1970s ways, commonly supporting their own K-12 schools. Their children tend to be very well educated, doing well in life. A cost for that besides monetary is the denominational control over living. Women still dress in long skirts, no makeup, hair buns, no jewelry, no scarlet colors, and long sleeved shirts and short hair for men, and they do that al the time, not just for church. Their congregations appear to be shrinking.
Charismatics needed a distinction from what was then a stigma being of a Pentecostal association. in those days. The shared the same Bible, but our more modern ladies couldn't live with such restrictions. We also mainly disagreed over their requirement of speaking in tongues to prove salvation, which has later weakened to 'evidence of perfection'. Those three words would require a book to explain.
Charismatics are Christians not usually interested in nationwide associations, though some are beginning to organize in that direction like the AoG Churches did, tough it appears that's more in the form of creating new sister churches that eventually can go sovereign when ready.
Dovegiven
Active
Sue, I still hear Baptists on TV warning against expecting divine healing, as one's sickness might be for God's glory that you suffer like many early Christians did. Their evidence is their numbers of people suffering terrible health. Yet, our Baptist relatives spend their resources on many doctors and treatments trying to, how I like to say it, thwart God's plan of suffering if possible. If they really believed they should retain poor health then why seek medical cures? They call us for prayer, but will not allow laying on of hands and anointing with oil, plus fervent effectual prayer, speaking directly to their mountain. They will pray "Your will be done" without believing what happened to sick folks around Jesus should happen for them. "It all passed away with the last apostle". If that happened without apostles warning it would pass away in the next generation, then why open the book at all? Stick to the hymnal for comfort?
We no longer bother our Baptist friends about such things, seeing we have so much in common on most other issues. But a trend I suspect is they are graying out, the youth not returning from college. In the many smaller local Baptist churches they are apparently going to charismatic congregations if anything other than agnostic/atheist.
We no longer bother our Baptist friends about such things, seeing we have so much in common on most other issues. But a trend I suspect is they are graying out, the youth not returning from college. In the many smaller local Baptist churches they are apparently going to charismatic congregations if anything other than agnostic/atheist.
Many years ago I read the Bible straight through. In the New Testament I could easily see how various belief systems came to being. When the question of what constitutes 'salvation' -- it's really very basic. The example of the thief on the cross, for example. No good works involved -- to chance to be baptized by immersion -- no speaking in tongues. He knew that he was a sinner - that's what was causing his death by crucifixion. He acknowledge Jesus Christ -- He was literally giving His life for the thief -- he acknowledged that -- and Jesus Christ assured the thief that That very day, they would be together in Paradise. The Other thief did Not. And That's what 1 Corinthians 15 first few verses tell us. Belief in your heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He died on the cross according to the Scriptures and that He rose again the 3rd day as Scripture says He did. And other people Did see Him walking about town for 40 days. Then He ascended back up to heaven.
I don't watch T.V. evangelists / faith healers.
And, yes, we Do need to aware that physical healing does Not always happen here on earth. And, Sometimes a person's life style causes their illness / poor health. God chooses to heal whom He desires To heal. He knows our inner needs. A couple of years ago -- there was a man who suffered from cancer -- his family believed in the power of prayer -- laying hands on him in Biblical way. All of these things were done-- a healing service was done and the man Was healed. He came forward one Sunday morning to praise God for his healing.
There's nothing wrong with seeking medical help. Wasn't Luke a physician?!
Almost sounds like you believe that God 's plans for our health Could be thwarted. It's Just as possible and Does happen, that people waiting for chemo / radiation treatments are able to witness to other patients / Dr.s and nurses -- That turns into their 'mission field'.
So - people who are diagnosed with diabetes should go untreated? That they shouldn't investigate their symptoms and get the insulin they need?! Modern science allows people to get gall bladders, appendixes, etc. removed. And organ transplants.
Scripture Also tells us to Not put aside assembling together on a regular basis with those of like beliefs/ practices. Some groups are Big on foot washing. One church I went to last year or so -- pastor was in the text on foot washing. He requested ahead of time for 4 or 5 people from the congregation to come up to front of church -- there were chairs and bowls of water and towels. And another group to come to wash their feet. And Then got their reactions to the experience. They said it was Very humbling. Turns out that it was originally because people back in that day did a Lot of walking -- barefoot and/ or sandles. Their feet would be very dirty -- going into a worship service. They felt a need to be clean-footed. Scripture Does encourage it.
Different parts of a country have different church groups. Some are very laid-back in their dress codes. Modesty is most important. And not drawing undue attention to one's self is Also important.
I don't watch T.V. evangelists / faith healers.
And, yes, we Do need to aware that physical healing does Not always happen here on earth. And, Sometimes a person's life style causes their illness / poor health. God chooses to heal whom He desires To heal. He knows our inner needs. A couple of years ago -- there was a man who suffered from cancer -- his family believed in the power of prayer -- laying hands on him in Biblical way. All of these things were done-- a healing service was done and the man Was healed. He came forward one Sunday morning to praise God for his healing.
There's nothing wrong with seeking medical help. Wasn't Luke a physician?!
Almost sounds like you believe that God 's plans for our health Could be thwarted. It's Just as possible and Does happen, that people waiting for chemo / radiation treatments are able to witness to other patients / Dr.s and nurses -- That turns into their 'mission field'.
So - people who are diagnosed with diabetes should go untreated? That they shouldn't investigate their symptoms and get the insulin they need?! Modern science allows people to get gall bladders, appendixes, etc. removed. And organ transplants.
Scripture Also tells us to Not put aside assembling together on a regular basis with those of like beliefs/ practices. Some groups are Big on foot washing. One church I went to last year or so -- pastor was in the text on foot washing. He requested ahead of time for 4 or 5 people from the congregation to come up to front of church -- there were chairs and bowls of water and towels. And another group to come to wash their feet. And Then got their reactions to the experience. They said it was Very humbling. Turns out that it was originally because people back in that day did a Lot of walking -- barefoot and/ or sandles. Their feet would be very dirty -- going into a worship service. They felt a need to be clean-footed. Scripture Does encourage it.
Different parts of a country have different church groups. Some are very laid-back in their dress codes. Modesty is most important. And not drawing undue attention to one's self is Also important.
Dovegiven
Active
Sis, please allow me to present my case part by part. If that offends then I'll take it down if possible.
I believe it is vital, though not required or necessary for salvation, to read the OT Bible and NT Bible through every year at least once. That takes about 90 hours. Divided by It is to me like taking my last career job as a Park Ranger having to read 18 volumes of federal law and regulations the first month, then annually satisfying my supervisor I knew it, and all changes to those year by year. All that kept me and the Army Corps of Engineers out of some embarrassing spectacle due to simple ignorance of facts. It only takes about 1% of ones "free" hours to read it all at the rate of 90 hours. Bt free I refer to 8 hrs sleep + 8 hours work + 8 hours "free". 5 minutes a day every day for a year would cover it all @ 5 minutes a day., maybe a little longer than a sandard TV commercial Many Americans watch to much TV, programs plus the commercials to spare that much time reading the Word of God, much less studying it. From a personal testimony, reading through the commercials greatly enhances learning truth.
In the New Testament I could easily see how various belief systems came to being. When the question of what constitutes 'salvation' -- it's really very basic. The example of the thief on the cross, for example. No good works involved -- to chance to be baptized by immersion -- no speaking in tongues. He knew that he was a sinner - that's what was causing his death by crucifixion. He acknowledge Jesus Christ -- He was literally giving His life for the thief -- he acknowledged that -- and Jesus Christ assured the thief that That very day, they would be together in Paradise. The Other thief did Not. And That's what 1 Corinthians 15 first few verses tell us. Belief in your heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, that He died on the cross according to the Scriptures and that He rose again the 3rd day as Scripture says He did. And other people Did see Him walking about town for 40 days. Then He ascended back up to heaven. [/QUOTE]
That's it to a point, except His departing last commands.
Mark 16:14-18 (KJV)
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
If you say He only meant those commands for the use of those apostles only, in addition to already established commands including salvation in His name, how could anyone separate those into temporary-versus-eternal promises concerning our generation is still far beyond my mind. No serious Bible commentator has positioned that and remained a "Best Seller" author.
I have been present to witness miraculous healing in versious "TV" healings. We have taken sick people to those and watched them receive miraculous healing, the most dramatic being a 15 year old severely deformed girl in our church who was forever dependent on her wheelchair, pain delivery tubes, and 100% bodily maintenance due to extreme rheumatoid arthritis, She stood on her feet and remained healed. Benny Hinn commended her, then she stood on her feet and no longer needed the wheelchair. It took a year to totally heal. Another was an elderly member who was totally blind from macular degeneration. We took her to a Reinhard Bonnke crusade meeting where she received eyesight but never again had retinas restored. Those are the most dramatic I've witnessed. I have learned the TV episodes leave out the major parts of gospel preached and taught, showing mostly the results due to the cost of TV time. I will not cheat myself out of the fruit bearing parts many such evangelists experience around the world. Such results are rare in the US where unbelief is rampant due to false gospel excuses from preachers who are not anointed of God.
Praise the Lord! Even Jesus failed to witness expected healing, in his own hometown, where most folks could only evaluate his youth history. Their own unbelief cancelled the blessings he had for them. Elsewhere Jesus found folks who received their healing due to their own faith. That's His main approach, healing and salvation according to one's faith, not some external power.
Agreed, as long as a patient doesn't exclude promises of God in exchange for mostly faulty promises of doctors. Many just aim to sell tests and meds and never even dare bring up diet and exercise, especially to obese patients. We receive hundreds of prayer requests from people assured their faith in their doctors is supreme. It's a bit difficult to pray around that if that's what they mostly believe. "I have total confidence in my cancer clinic doctors, but please pray for me." is very common, especially for those graduating to Hospice care in their latter days of suffering. None of that matches up with Jesus' last commands. It's all an alternate universe concerning faith. So I have to assume most folks simply choose to live in suffering, believing they are honoring God with that. Well, Jesus' suffering was substitutionary, not intended to be carried on among His disciples.
Of courese unbelief thrarts Gods' will of health. Again I cite Nazareth folks. But while enduring the 4 hours of chemo 2-3 times a week my wife and I witnessed to many during those hours. Her experience has led to a ministry of encouraging many other women not familiar with the promises of God through faith. She has been medically declared totally clear of cancer of the breast. We knew it first.
Actually the statistics indicate many Americans are living with diabetes and have not been diagnosed of it. They are tpically unaware of symptoms, never checking glucose levels. Most eat themselves into hyperglycemia, then begin suffering the rough symptoms, then try to find a physcian still taking new patients. When dialysis and transplants becomes necessary it's problably the patient in in their last decade.
Dovegiven
Active
I wish to point out just one aspect of why, though we are getting off topic, there are differences between Baptist and Christmatic/pentecostal. Lets go back to a verse from above.
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Notioce Jesus was commanding the apostles. Baptists agree that far. The apostles did that, we all agree. What Baptists disagree about is what happens with the people they witness to who believe. Spiritfilled Christians understand that is everyone downline of the apostles, all those believing having access to such promises. Seeing pentecostals remained in a low minority for millennia, it should be no wonder why most generations didn't witness such happenings. Their conclusions were "It all passed away with the last apostle". But there is no scripture remotely indicating that, unless "love" passes away. But in these "last days" there have arisen believers who are willing to make fools of themselves for Jesus by agreeing with all His word, and are willing to practice them by faith believing, and receiving.
Notice also those powers were not assigned to apostles in that passage, though the apostles on record did practice miracles. His emphasis was on those who would believe. I am one of those. I associate with other believers who live by the scriptures as trumping secular history and even modern science, even though my life has cenetered around science, later including the Bible. If I reject Mark 16 as devilish or improperly added by a scribe, as many modern evangelicals say, then I would be insulting the Holy Spirit and risking damnation. Nobody is required to do those mighty things like Jesus did to be born again, but God meant them for good for us believers for the sake of the gospel of Christ to spread among the lost. Such powers draw attention of unbelievers and disbelievers, opening doors for them to hear and believe the gospel.
That's why many millions of people on remote continents believe en masse, having no unbelief to overcome. Americans have been "warned" too much to believe in miracles, believe in Jesus, or even the existence of a spiritual world of angels, demons and the Devil. Now I see a lot of disbelief in the fact the nation was founded by many theologians, the Declaration of Independence affirming that. They do that because of the disbelief/unbelief so prevalent in many Western churches lacking faith, rejecting truth of the scriptures, doubting the Genesis account of origins and judgment, thereby undermining any hope of comprehending the rest of the Bible message properly, even casting doubt upon Jesus, who cited those accounts of old as did apostles.
A major difference between Pentecostals and Charismatices, to get on topic, is the former often require the signs to believe you are saved and worthy of membership. Charismatics usually reject that, believing a believer should welcome spiritual signs and whatever else the apostles and Jesus did to attract the lost. But we understand new believers often halt at public witnessing, most lacking knowledge, or fearful of the culture of rejection. With discipleship the Church business of evangelism grows naturally.
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Notioce Jesus was commanding the apostles. Baptists agree that far. The apostles did that, we all agree. What Baptists disagree about is what happens with the people they witness to who believe. Spiritfilled Christians understand that is everyone downline of the apostles, all those believing having access to such promises. Seeing pentecostals remained in a low minority for millennia, it should be no wonder why most generations didn't witness such happenings. Their conclusions were "It all passed away with the last apostle". But there is no scripture remotely indicating that, unless "love" passes away. But in these "last days" there have arisen believers who are willing to make fools of themselves for Jesus by agreeing with all His word, and are willing to practice them by faith believing, and receiving.
Notice also those powers were not assigned to apostles in that passage, though the apostles on record did practice miracles. His emphasis was on those who would believe. I am one of those. I associate with other believers who live by the scriptures as trumping secular history and even modern science, even though my life has cenetered around science, later including the Bible. If I reject Mark 16 as devilish or improperly added by a scribe, as many modern evangelicals say, then I would be insulting the Holy Spirit and risking damnation. Nobody is required to do those mighty things like Jesus did to be born again, but God meant them for good for us believers for the sake of the gospel of Christ to spread among the lost. Such powers draw attention of unbelievers and disbelievers, opening doors for them to hear and believe the gospel.
That's why many millions of people on remote continents believe en masse, having no unbelief to overcome. Americans have been "warned" too much to believe in miracles, believe in Jesus, or even the existence of a spiritual world of angels, demons and the Devil. Now I see a lot of disbelief in the fact the nation was founded by many theologians, the Declaration of Independence affirming that. They do that because of the disbelief/unbelief so prevalent in many Western churches lacking faith, rejecting truth of the scriptures, doubting the Genesis account of origins and judgment, thereby undermining any hope of comprehending the rest of the Bible message properly, even casting doubt upon Jesus, who cited those accounts of old as did apostles.
A major difference between Pentecostals and Charismatices, to get on topic, is the former often require the signs to believe you are saved and worthy of membership. Charismatics usually reject that, believing a believer should welcome spiritual signs and whatever else the apostles and Jesus did to attract the lost. But we understand new believers often halt at public witnessing, most lacking knowledge, or fearful of the culture of rejection. With discipleship the Church business of evangelism grows naturally.