We are supposed to work for this !!

[Ivar]

@regibassman57

Christ fulfilled the law.

Paul "Hebrew among Hebrews" and a Pharisee kept the law;
He found it expedient to Glorify Christ and encouraged willing disciples "under the law to Christ" to turn their heart towards God by building a solid foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith towards God.

Both Christ and Paul were disciples of the law of Moses.

Why does it seem that you have used the Breast Milk of Paul to crucify the law of Moses when Paul and Christ never did such things????
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2 Peter 3:16 "Paul" As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

1 Corinthians 9:21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

1 Corinthians 3 King James Version (KJV)
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? '

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.
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You say law of Moses Old Wine and Christ New WIne. Is that not carnal? Aren't Moses and Christ both prophets of God? Aren't the words of Moses and the words of Christ of The Father" Does the Father change? Did/Does not the Father give the increase / word.
Isn't crucifying the law of Moses crucifying the words of God?

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Maybe i am wrong though "which I would be reluctant to admit"
Maybe your faith is on another level, or my faith is just weak, or my discernment is off
I have been observing the back and forth though

 

[regibassman57]

@Ivar,
Read the 15 chapter of Acts...

 

[Dave M]

Philippians 4:17
Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.
Not that I seek the gift, but I seek the fruit that increases to your credit.
Not that I desire your gifts; what I desire is that more be credited to your account.

you have to distinguish between salvation and rewards works is for rewards

 

[Dave M]

 

[Ivar]

@Ivar,
Read the 15 chapter of Acts...

@regibassman57

Why did Peter said what he said in Acts Chapter 15; Here is the reason:

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

FYI: I did not went back in time to add that verse to the scriptures.:grin:

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You are the company you keep if the gentiles cleaved themselves unto the Jews then many of their habits and customs they more than likely would have picked up over time; especially considering if their heart is truly turned to God because.

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

Romans 3:2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
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Essentially A circumcised heart is more expedient than circumcised flesh.
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At the end of the day Acts Chapter 15 cannot be used to castrate the law of Moses, That is un-biblical
---------------------------------

Do you find my answer satisfying according to scripture? If not why? And do you have another question?

 

[Ivar]

@Dave M

I do agree that no one can earn salvation but I do expect that salvation: Needs to be maintained; Needs to be valued; Needs to be kept from depreciating. And there are countless other ways to say it. At the end of the day our faith should be so great enough in Christ that the term "work" not seem like a proverb or byword.
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Especially when;

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

 

[regibassman57]

@Ivar,
I will ask you the same question i ask Bibleguy, are you justified by the law and is the law manditory?

 

[regibassman57]

Every scripture below is talking about being made free from the Law of Moses

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. (Matthew 11:28,29)

Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

 

[Ivar]

@regibassman57

Considering who is Good. Considering who it came from. Considering it is good or lawful if used lawfully. Considering the duty of Man. Then I would answer yes. Justified by the law thru faith. Because faith without works is dead and thru faith we establish the law.

Now when it comes to the Passover lamb and Author and Finisher of our faith that is 100% a gift of God so in that context no.

 

[regibassman57]

@Ivar, @Dave, @bibleguy,
I think this chat has been between us, but we are all over the place. I think we should start bring order to this forum. Lets start truly chatting to learn and cut the debating short. Gig spoke a wise thing and I agree with her. It's not about debating but about learning. Lets see if we can figure this out.

 

[Ivar]

@

Every scripture below is talking about being made free from the Law of Moses

Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. (Matthew 11:28,29)

Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

@regibassman57

And How did Paul preach? And Why did Paul preach that way? And what was the intentions of Paul? If anything it would turn into a circular argument because i have already posted the scriptures.

As i have said either my faith is weak or your faith is on another level; Because it seems you are not leaving the principles of Christ and are laying down once again foundation of repentance and of faith toward God. As well as referring to prophets of God as Old and New Wine skins as pretext to castrate the law of Moses which is Of God.
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Within the law of Moses is knowledge, virtue, oracles of God, etc; Within the Christ is grace and truth concerning such things.
Moses brought the law in which we establish. Christ made the yoke of the law easier and burden lighter thru his examples.

2 Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

2 Peter 1:6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

2 Peter 1:7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

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At some point the new disciples of Christ was to learn to eat meat

Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

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Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

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At some point; A mother will tell you to depart from her nipple!!

 

[Ivar]

@Ivar, @Dave, @bibleguy,
I think this chat has been between us, but we are all over the place. I think we should start bring order to this forum. Lets start truly chatting to learn and cut the debating short. Gig spoke a wise thing and I agree with her. It's not about debating but about learning. Lets see if we can figure this out.

wise because you both are one and confederate. "in words" :grin:.
"Not saying that's a good or bad thing"

But it does remind me when the King of Syria and King of Israel were confederate against Ahaz.

 

[regibassman57]

Ivar,
That's the point I was making, keep it simple in learning.
Paul was teaching the Galatian church not to continue justifying themselves by law. They were seeking to made righteous by keeping the Mosic law. Paul spoke to them through Galatians 5 as well as 3.
It was serious enough for him to tell them they have fallen from Grace if they seek to be justified by the law.

 

[Ivar]

@regibassman57
more than likely because they were Jews. His brothers and that being the case

1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

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Paul had to break down that being just under the law is slavery and debt. Being only circumcised in the flesh is nothing

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Being circumcise in the foreskins of your heart is different than flesh.

Jeremiah 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.
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Granted we can learn from all the epistles of Paul but it helps to understand his audience; The people he is addressing in terms with his agenda concerning Christ.

 

[regibassman57]

Ivar,
That is exactly what Paul was doing; as you said:
"Paul had to break down that being just under the law is slavery and debt. Being only circumcised in the flesh is nothing"
And truth, Paul became a Jew that he might "gain" them. Paul knew all the tricks. Once Paul converted them, he then would teach.

 

[Ivar]

@regibassman57

however i would also say the doctrine of Christ or the milk of it can slowly lead towards lasciviousness unless one moves onto perfection which consist of learning from the law of Moses

So there is a balance. With the middle ground not necessarily being the same for everyone depending on where they are on their walk.

 

[regibassman57]

@Ivar,
My understanding of the doctrine of Christ is the Ten Commandment summarized into "Love God and our and our neighbor as ourselves."
Lets deals with this verse.

Luk 10:25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 10:26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
Luk 10:28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

What is your thoughts on these verses about obtaining "life?"

 

[Ivar]

@regibassman57

my thoughts are love , obedience , and duty.

Pro 8:17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

 

[Ivar]

@regibassman57

i found this video very interesting though long and it helped me to get a better perspective in my opinion. Also it shows that one cannot just be using that Parable of Old and New Wine skins lightly. Especially considering that in the Grand Scheme of things the Heavenly father does not change and that the wine of Moses and Christ came from the same source.

 

[regibassman57]

@Ivar,
It then appears that some work is required in the doctrine of Christ to obtain Eternal Life. Would you agree? As you Ivar say, faith without works is dead. Works make perfect our faith. It would seem "believing" Christ we show our belief by doing His will.

John 6:28
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might "work the works" of God?
John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.