John 3-13 ??

[Curtis]

any activity in the invisible realm Is just that invisible.

What do you think Jesus meant when he said......

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Did Jesus mean that once a man gets born again, and then lives out his life here on earth, and then after he dies then he will see the kingdom of God?
Or did Jesus mean once a man get born again, then he can see the kingdom of God?

 

[B-A-C]

Did Jesus mean that once a man gets born again, and then lives out his life here on earth, and then after he dies then he will see the kingdom of God?
Or did Jesus mean once a man get born again, then he can see the kingdom of God?

This question has divided many churches over the centuries.

John 3:5; Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Just a few verses later Jesus says..

John 3:13; "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

 

[Sue D.]

@ B-A-C -- the John 3 passage -- 'enter into the kingdom of God' would be referring to eventually being with God in heaven. The new Jerusalem. or the Body of Christ. the body of Christ Will eventually be in the new Jerusalem.

And maybe it's referring to the fact that once a person has the Holy Spirit dwelling in them -- that there is a much better understanding of Scripture. But being born-again doesn't mean we'll actually be able to see the 'kingdom of God'.

Our interpretation of what the phrase 'the kingdom of God' means

 

[Curtis]

This question has divided many churches over the centuries.

John 3:5; Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Just a few verses later Jesus says..

John 3:13; "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

So, Jesus said unless a man be born again he can not see, or enter the kingdom of God. No one had ascended into Heaven because Jesus had not yet died on the cross, but when he did rise from the dead he raised us up together with him into the kingdom of God..
now that we are born again, and having been raised up with Jesus into his kingdom, can we now see where we have been translated to? Was Jesus just kidding us about what he said?

 

[Sue D.]

1Co 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

I miss spoke -- I meant that we won't have God's knowledge. We have partial knowledge -- God has All knowledge.

 

[Curtis]

I miss spoke -- I meant that we won't have God's knowledge. We have partial knowledge -- God has All knowledge.

So, the person who has all knowledge is now living where?

 

[B-A-C]

now that we are born again, and having been raised up with Jesus, can we see and enter the kingdom of God, or was Jesus just kidding us?

Are we raised from spiritual death, or are we raised into heaven?

We are in the kingdom of God. Kind of like being a member of the animal kingdom or the plant kingdom, or the kingdom of Disneyland.
Kind of like having a membership at the Y.

But even tares are in the kingdom. Even bad fish are in the kingdom.

 

[Curtis]

Are we raised from spiritual death, or are we raised into heaven?

Is the kingdom of God physical or a spiritual place? Are there bad fish in the kingdom of God? Are there tares in the kingdom of God?

 

[B-A-C]

Is the kingdom of God physical or a spiritual place? Are there bad fish in the kingdom of God? Are there tares in the kingdom of God?

1. Both
2. Yes
3. Yes

 

[Curtis]

1. Both
2. Yes
3. Yes

The Kingdom of God is "spiritual" not physical!!!

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Is the kingdom of God physical or a spiritual place? Are there bad fish in the kingdom of God? Are there tares in the kingdom of God?

Spiritual.
no
no

 

[B-A-C]

Is the kingdom of God physical or a spiritual place? Are there bad fish in the kingdom of God? Are there tares in the kingdom of God?

I'll take the Bible's word for this over yours.

Matt 13:24; Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
Matt 13:25; But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
Matt 13:26; But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
Matt 13:27; The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’
Matt 13:28; And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves *said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’
Matt 13:29; But he *said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
Matt 13:30; Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

The field is the kingdom of God. Both tares and wheat are in the field. It is only after the seed begin to sprout that which ones are tares become evident.
They are allowed to "grow together" in the same field (same kingdom). It isn't until the time of the harvest that the tares are separated out from the wheat.

This parable is explained a few verses later.

Matt 13:41; The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth

Certain people are gathered "out of the kingdom". It is the same with the fish.

Matt 13:47; “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
Matt 13:48; and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
Matt 13:49; So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
Matt 13:50; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The net is the kingdom, both good fish and bad fish are in the net. It isn't until the net is drawn in and laid on the beach that the good fish are separated from the bad fish.

 

[Curtis]

I'll take the Bible's word for this over yours.

Matt 13:24; Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
Matt 13:25; But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
Matt 13:26; But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
Matt 13:27; The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’
Matt 13:28; And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves *said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’
Matt 13:29; But he *said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
Matt 13:30; Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

The field is the kingdom of God. Both tares and wheat are in the field. It is only after the seed begin to sprout that which ones are tares become evident.
They are allowed to "grow together" in the same field (same kingdom). It isn't until the time of the harvest that the tares are separated out from the wheat.

This parable is explained a few verses later.

Matt 13:41; The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth

Certain people are gathered "out of the kingdom". It is the same with the fish.

Matt 13:47; “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
Matt 13:48; and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.
Matt 13:49; So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
Matt 13:50; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The net is the kingdom, both good fish and bad fish are in the net. It isn't until the net is drawn in and laid on the beach that the good fish are separated from the bad fish.

Your error is in the fact you seem not to know the difference between "the kingdom may be compared to" to "the kingdom of Heaven is like" . The Bible tells us that "God is like the sun..." God is not the sun, but he is like the sun. Neither is this world the kingdom of God as there are no unbelievers in the kingdom of God or are there any tares!!! There are no stumbling blocks in the kingdom of God nor is there any lawlessness!! If God translated his Church into the kingdom of his dear Son at the new birth, then I guess we did not need to go anywhere!!!

Unless a man be born again he can not enter the Kingdom of God...... Why would a man need to enter something where he is already at? That makes no sense at all!!! Unless a man be born again he can not see the Kingdom of Heaven..... Why would I need to get born again if i am already seeing it in my flesh?

 

[B-A-C]

Your error is in the fact you seem not to know the difference between "the kingdom may be compared to" to "the kingdom of Heaven is like" .

Apparently Jesus couldn't tell the difference either.

Matt 13:41; The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness

 

[Sue D.]

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

The Lord knew that a born again person or any person needed a "visual aid" in being able to understand, and to "see" the invisible things of the kingdom of God, and even of God himself. The physical world is a shadow of the eternal spiritual realm. We can see "invisible" things by looking at the physical things because they are very similar. God created some thing in the physical realm that we can see with our eyes that show us how God is in the spiritual realm. Do you know what that is?

Meaning that when a person looks up into the sky and sees lightning there's also ground lightning -- the storm clouds -- planets - stars -- mankind can observe that They certainly didn't put the stars, planets in the sky So there's some entity existing that is outside of ourselves. And when a person's life is changed for the better -- the working of the Holy Spirit can be 'seen'.

Okay -- you tell me what 'that' is.

 

[Curtis]

Meaning that when a person looks up into the sky and sees lightning there's also ground lightning -- the storm clouds -- planets - stars -- mankind can observe that They certainly didn't put the stars, planets in the sky So there's some entity existing that is outside of ourselves. And when a person's life is changed for the better -- the working of the Holy Spirit can be 'seen'.

Okay -- you tell me what 'that' is.

Well, we know that, "the heavens declare the Glory of God", so an invisible God creates things that declare his Glory, or we could say it reveals the nature of it's creator. God knew a spiritual dead man can not see into the realm of the spirit where God lives so God created the universe in such a way that it would be a shadow of the invisible, so that man would have no excuse to not believe he exists.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

"They" meaning man would have no excuse. But the greatest of all revelations that God created in the physical world is the one that man can see with his eyes and get a understanding of how God is in the spiritual realm where he lives.....

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

It is always better to quote scriptures to allow the holy Spirit to reveal a truth to a person than for a person to just tell them the answer. This is why Jesus always asked a lot of question, not because he did not know the answer, as he knew the answers to every question he asked. This is how he taught so as to allow the Holy Spirit to reveal a certain truth instead of just telling them. So I will quote a few scriptures, and then you tell me what God created in the physical universe that gives man a revelation of how God is.

john 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Psa 84:11 For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

Deu 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

 

[Sue D.]

@ Curtis -- that Is one of my short-comings --not using enough Scripture to speak. I do a lot of 'sermonizing'. Probably shouldn't. I paraphrase a lot.

 

[Curtis]

@ Curtis -- that Is one of my short-comings --not using enough Scripture to speak. I do a lot of 'sermonizing'. Probably shouldn't. I paraphrase a lot.

That is only something that comes in time as we grow in the Lord. The Apostle Paul was asked about marriage, and divorce, and he responded back that what he would say to them was not a "commandment of the Lord", but his own thinking on the matter.

Of course Paul knew the Lord so much that what he spoke back to the Churches was actually exactly what Jesus would have said to them. Paul at the end of his "discourse" said, "and I believe I have the Spirit of God..." In other words what he said is what Holy Spirit spoke through him.

I don't believe you need to be able to speak the exact words in scripture perfectly, (which I try to do) but more of what is said. The idea, or the truth that it gave you when it was revealed to you.

 

[Curtis]

God is "like" the "sun". He is not the sun, but like the sun. If we read further in Romans 1 we read that there were a lot of people that used to "worship" the sun as God. These people were not far from the truth, but there down fall was they "worshiped a created thing more, then it's creator." That is exactly how the devil works. The sun within our solar system is absolutely needed for any life to live. Without it there would no life on planet earth anywhere. Our God is a consuming fire, and that is exactly what the sun is!! Without the sun we would be able to see with our eyes. The Apostle Paul tells us......

Eph 5:13 But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible,
Eph 5:14 for anything that becomes visible is light. Therefore it says, “Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.”

Not only is that true in the physical world, but also in the spiritual realm in which we live. If God "enlightens the eyes of our hearts", then we should be seeing something that is not of this world.
"...In his light we shall see light" (Ps 36:9) God is light, and the purpose shinning his light upon us is so we can see God!!!

2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

The Glory of God shines in the face of Jesus Christ, and the reason for God shinning his light is so we can this Glory in the face of Jesus Christ.

There are many many more things that can be understood by understanding how God is like the sun, but that would a while to type on this forum.

 

[Sue D.]

@ Curtis -- over the years I've been on numerous Forums. This is probably the only one in which Scripture has been used a lot and directly.

 

[Curtis]

@ Curtis -- over the years I've been on numerous Forums. This is probably the only one in which Scripture has been used a lot and directly.

I can only speak for me, but the only reason I use scripture in all that I believe is because, "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God" No one can believe (have faith) in God without hearing his word, because that is where faith comes from. If I never confess the word of God out of my mouth every day then my belief (faith) would just be "mental assent" which does nothing. The only reason why I confess the word of God is so that I can believe the word of God. The acid test to any true faith is you actually experience what it says what you have been given by God, and where you have been translated to.