John 3-13 ??

[Dave M]

John 3:13
No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

I have wondered about this verse, I have always thought that this is before Jesus came to earth.

Now that he has made the way for us when we die we go to be with the Lord in heaven. SO now saints actually do go to heaven is what I think. What say you?

2 Corinthians 5:8
Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Philippians 1:23
I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.


2 Corinthians 12:2
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.

Revelation 4:1-2
After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” At once I was in the Spirit, and behold, a throne stood in heaven, with one seated on the throne.

 

[B-A-C]

Interesting subject. It has been debated a lot here.

I see it as a two part question.

1. Where: .. is heaven? Some say it is simply a term of membership. Being in the kingdom of heaven, is like being in the plant kingdom or animal kingdom.
Others say, it is a meta-physical place that we cannot see. It is where God dwells. Still others say it will be the new Jerusalem, once God starts dwelling there.

I personally believe Rev 4:1-2; is more like a vision than an actual "transference". I can't prove it, but we do know John didn't die and stay there permanently
after this.

The other question is...
2. When: when do we go to "heaven" (whatever your definition of heaven is).
a. immediately in the membership sense.
b. immediately upon death. (many Christians believe this)
c. On the "last day". (even that means different things to different people).

When are we "raised up"?
John 6:39-40; John 6:44; John 6:54; John 11:24; John 5:28-29; 1 Cor 15:52; 2 Cor 4:14;

Eph 2:6; is often taken in "kingdom now" sense. We are "already" in heaven. Some believe there is no other heaven to attain to.

Consider the worm can... opened.

 

[Curtis]

Is Jesus sitting on the right hand of God today? Of course he is. What says the scriptures about us?

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

This is not a future event, but a past event that happened two thousand years ago! Our physical body can not go there, but the re-birthed human spirit can.
We would rather be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. We are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if so be the Spirit of God dwells within us.

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Can opened a little bit more....

 

[Hekuran]

Read the New Testament carefully and you'll see that Christian hope is not framed in terms of going to heaven, but in terms of our bodies being resurrected from the dead.

 

[Curtis]

The resurrection of the "dead" is about the physical body being raised up, not the spirit of man who is in Christ in Heaven!

 

[B-A-C]

I don't believe our "current" (fleshly) bodies are resurrected. But I do believe in the resurrection.

1 Cor 15:35; But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"

1 Cor 15:37; and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.

1 Cor 15:42; So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
1 Cor 15:43; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1 Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

I believe the "old" body returns to the dust from which it came.

Job 34:15; All flesh would perish together, And man would return to dust.
Psa 90:3; You turn man back into dust And say, "Return, O children of men."
Ecc 3:20; All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.
Ecc 12:7; then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.

Even the wicked are resurrected.
John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Acts 24:15; having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Do the evil wicked "bodies" get resurrected to heaven? No.

1 Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

 

[Curtis]

1 Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body

If there is no "natural" body "sown", then there will be no "spiritual" body raised.

Which is why it is called the "resurrection of the dead". The word "dead" means "corpse".

 

[Sue D.]

When a person dies -- the physical part decomposes and returns to bare bones. The spiritual part - the soul of the believer is immediately with Jesus Christ for ever. The other people's souls are waiting to be cast into the lake of fire and brimstone.

A person has to be Born in order for any of that to take place.

 

[Curtis]

2 Corinthians 12:2
I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.

We know from scripture that "flesh, and blood" can not inherit the Kingdom of God, (1 Cor 15:50) so Paul would have been caught up "without" his body. As the scripture says.......

2Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

How can anyone come boldly to the throne of grace unless ones comes without his body? (Heb 4:16)

 

[Sue D.]

We know from scripture that "flesh, and blood" can not inherit the Kingdom of God, (1 Cor 15:50) so Paul would have been caught up "without" his body. As the scripture says.......

2Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

How can anyone come boldly to the throne of grace unless ones comes without his body? (Heb 4:16)

The subject of Heb 4: 16 is Praying -- our ability to talk to God through Jesus Christ who has become our 'high priest' -- rather than having to go through a human being -- to talk to God. We can talk to God about anything because He understands us.

2 Corinthians 12:2 back up to vs 1 -- Paul is talking "I must go on boasting - Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations, from the Lord.
vs 2 "I know a man in Christ who , fourteen years ago, was caught up to the third heaven. ....... whether it was in the body or out of the body, I do not know ....... the man was caught up into Paradise ..... he heard inexpressible things ,things that man is not permitted to tell. Paul said that will boast about a man like that , but not about himself except for his own weaknesses.

This passage sounds like he was referring to John who Was taken up -- when he was on the island of Patmos and given a vision of what he wrote in the book of Revelation. Chapter 22: 10 and 11 "Then he told me, Dko not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.

In 1 Cor. 15:50 " I declare unto you , brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable." He'd been talking about having had a 'vision'.

Almost sounds like you're mixing a few things together that aren't really meant to Be together. Both of the passages are correct in themselves. But the context is Also important. Trying to mix them together?!

The resurrection body and then the rapture is being described in vs 51 and 52 of 1 Corinthians 15.

 

[Curtis]

The subject of Heb 4: 16 is Praying -- our ability to talk to God through Jesus Christ who has become our 'high priest' -- rather than having to go through a human being -- to talk to God. We can talk to God about anything because He understands us.

2 Corinthians 12:2 back up to vs 1 -- Paul is talking "I must go on boasting - Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations, from the Lord.
vs 2 "I know a man in Christ who , fourteen years ago, was caught up to the third heaven. ....... whether it was in the body or out of the body, I do not know ....... the man was caught up into Paradise ..... he heard inexpressible things ,things that man is not permitted to tell. Paul said that will boast about a man like that , but not about himself except for his own weaknesses.

This passage sounds like he was referring to John who Was taken up -- when he was on the island of Patmos and given a vision of what he wrote in the book of Revelation. Chapter 22: 10 and 11 "Then he told me, Dko not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.

In 1 Cor. 15:50 " I declare unto you , brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable." He'd been talking about having had a 'vision'.

Almost sounds like you're mixing a few things together that aren't really meant to Be together. Both of the passages are correct in themselves. But the context is Also important. Trying to mix them together?!

The resurrection body and then the rapture is being described in vs 51 and 52 of 1 Corinthians 15.

Actually, Paul was referring to himself as we find in verse one.....

2Co 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2Co 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth

Paul did not want to "brag" about his many visions he had of the Lord, and because of Paul being caught up multiple times and seeing visions of the lord a "thorn in the flesh" was given to him, a "messenger of Satan" to buffet him.

2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

Your two feet can never get you to the "throne of grace" because it is not in this world, as it is in Heaven were your body can not go.

 

[Sue D.]

@ Curtis -- it sounds like you're picturing a literal throne that God is sitting on in heaven that we are approaching to talk with Him. But the 'throne of grace' being talked about is when we pray to God -- from right here on earth -- we are approaching God in prayer through Jesus Christ.

Is it safe to assume that You 'pray' every day? Or at church? or ask a blessing on your food before eating? Praying is our 'talking to God'.

1 Thessalonians 5: 17 pray continually vs18 give thanks in all circumstances.... that's what 'we' are being told to do Now. And we have the Lord's Prayer. Our talking to God is something we do Now.

 

[Curtis]

@ Curtis -- it sounds like you're picturing a literal throne that God is sitting on in heaven that we are approaching to talk with Him. But the 'throne of grace' being talked about is when we pray to God -- from right here on earth -- we are approaching God in prayer through Jesus Christ.

Is it safe to assume that You 'pray' every day? Or at church? or ask a blessing on your food before eating? Praying is our 'talking to God'.

1 Thessalonians 5: 17 pray continually vs18 give thanks in all circumstances.... that's what 'we' are being told to do Now. And we have the Lord's Prayer. Our talking to God is something we do Now.

I am really picturing a literal throne, not some future event! Did not Jesus say, that he was the way, truth, and the life, and that no one can come to the Father except by him? What does the scriptures tell us?

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

No body can go somewhere until they know where it is they are suppose to go.The Bible clearly tells us in scripture where we have been translated to.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

Where exactly is that Kingdom we have been translated to?

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,
Heb 12:23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Heb 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

How could this have happened, and when did this take place?

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Now the question should be, do you believe this? If not, then why not? How can anyone seek the things that are above unless you are already above so you can seek them? If Jesus is the way, then did not Jesus bring us before God our Father to have fellowship with him?

Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
Col 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

The Gospel is not some fairy tale that will one day become a reality, it is a reality that happened two thousand years ago when God raised up Jesus from the dead along with his Church on that same day!

You can not believe in something you do not know, and you certainly can not exspierance that which you do not believe.

 

[Sue D.]

@ Curtis -- I also asked you about praying. Do you pray?

 

[Curtis]

@ Curtis -- I also asked you about praying. Do you pray?

I learned along time ago, (about 40 years) that if you want to hear from God, (as he answers our prayers based on his time schedule, not ours) then you need to be in prayer 24/7. As it is written.......

Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

I

 

[Sue D.]

I learned along time ago, (about 40 years) that if you want to hear from God, (as he answers our prayers based on his time schedule, not ours) then you need to be in prayer 24/7. As it is written.......

Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

I

So - you Do pray -- so you Are approaching the "throne of grace" when you are praying, correct?! So -- when you are praying (talking to God) you are not bowing down in front of a real throne with a real person sitting on it, correct?!

"Hearing from God" can be through reading God's Word, from hearing a good sermon, any number of ways, circumstances. But probably mostly from reading His Word. And we respond Back by talking with Him through Prayer.

And, yes, definitely -- God answers our prayers on His time-table -- not especially our own. He's the only one who knows what is Best for each person.

Being in prayer 24/7 -- an attitude Of realizing that God is there with us all the time. We can be offering up -- quick, silent "please keep me safe on the interstate this morning" It's rush hour and traffic Can be heavy.
Or you know of someone having surgery 'today' -- a prayer on behalf of the surgeon doing the operating. A person can be cleaning their car or the garage or at work and be 'praying' in your heart. And there are times when a small group of church people / friends Will gather at the hospital waiting room and be praying at the time of the surgery or procedure. But there is not a visible throne with a person sitting on it that is being prayed to.

 

[Curtis]

So - you Do pray -- so you Are approaching the "throne of grace" when you are praying, correct?! So -- when you are praying (talking to God) you are not bowing down in front of a real throne with a real person sitting on it, correct?!

Absolutely yes!!!!! When the Bible says come to the throne of grace, that is not just a make believe suggestion, that is reality!!! Jesus is the "way", which means "highway", the "truth" which means "reality", and the life. Jesus is the highway that goes directly to the reality of life!!!

Jesus said......

John 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

If there is anything the people of God like to do the most, is to eat!!! A pasture is were we eat! Jesus is the "door", or "way" to the Father, and there he feeds us the "hidden manna"

Either the Bible is true, and we must believe it, or just cross our fingers that maybe someday, if we are lucky we will be able to have fellowship with God in his Kingdom in which he has brought us to.

 

[Curtis]

"Hearing from God" can be through reading God's Word, from hearing a good sermon, any number of ways, circumstances. But probably mostly from reading His Word. And we respond Back by talking with Him through Prayer.

Jesus said......

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

All scripture is for the purpose of testifying, and pointing to the living Word of God. The Bible is not Jesus! The Bible is not the Word of God, it only contains the words of God in which the Word of God spoke. There is only one Jesus, but there are many words contained in the Bible. Jesus said he only spoke what he heard his Father say, which means the words contained in the Bible will not speak to us until God the Father speaks. Jesus said when the Holy Spirit comes he will NOT on his own but only what he hears. When God speaks it always God the Father who speaks which causes the Word (Jesus) to speak which causes the Holy Spirit to speak. It is impossible for God to speak without having all three persons of the Godhead to speak in unison.
What does that mean? It means if I do not have an intimate relationship with God the Father through prayer, the Bible will stay a complete mystery to me!

 

[Sue D.]

Jesus said......

John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

All scripture is for the purpose of testifying, and pointing to the living Word of God. The Bible is not Jesus! The Bible is not the Word of God, it only contains the words of God in which the Word of God spoke. There is only one Jesus, but there are many words contained in the Bible. Jesus said he only spoke what he heard his Father say, which means the words contained in the Bible will not speak to us until God the Father speaks. Jesus said when the Holy Spirit comes he will NOT on his own but only what he hears. When God speaks it always God the Father who speaks which causes the Word (Jesus) to speak which causes the Holy Spirit to speak. It is impossible for God to speak without having all three persons of the Godhead to speak in unison.
What does that mean? It means if I do not have an intimate relationship with God the Father through prayer, the Bible will stay a complete mystery to me!

How about John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was With God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that was made."

2 Timothy 3:15 "All Scripture is God breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting nd training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."
Emphasis on ALL Scripture is God breathed.

What would be the point in "Searching the Scriptures ... if the Bible is not the Word of God."

In post #17 you said that "Either the Bible is true....And we must believe it...or just cross your fingers and maybe someday............

 

[Curtis]

What would be the point in "Searching the Scriptures ... if the Bible is not the Word of God."

There is only "one" Word of God. Jesus is not the Bible or we would be worshiping the Bible as God. The Bible is NOT the Word of God, it only contains the "words" of God that he has spoken.
The Word of God (Jesus) is singular, the bible contains words that are plural. Jesus said the words that he spoke (plural) were not his words, but his Fathers. (John 14:10). The Word of God singular, speaks words that are plural. The bible without hearing the voice of the Word of God (Jesus) would be useless.