Lesser-Greater sins

[B-A-C]

I am always surprised at how people have different beliefs on here.

Lately there has been some discussion about things "venial" vs "mortal" sins. (this is mostly Roman Catholic)

But I have also noticed some Calvinists seem have a similar belief. I think they would say they don't, but hear me out here.

Whenever someone says they are a Christian... but then they say but I am also a practicing homosexual who doesn't want to quit this lifestyle... people will say "well. they aren't really saved in the first place".

Well OK... maybe that's true.

But then these same people turn around and say.. but I sin everyday. Sometimes I lust, sometimes I lie,
sometimes I steal... but hey... at least I'm not homosexual.

Is there really really a difference between the "types" of sins? I'm not arguing about greater and lesser sins.
But does God really view homosexuality as worse than say... looking at pornography?

John 19:11; Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”

Jesus seems to be comparing the judgment of Pilate with the betrayal of Judas... He says Judas committed "the greater sin". But still both are still sin.

1 Jn 5:16; If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.
1 Jn 5:17; All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.

It seems there is "a" (single) sin that doesn't lead to death. There is a lot of debate about what this particular sin is. Catholics take this to mean there are a number of these "venial" sins.

... to be continued ...

 

[B-A-C]

Now it seems there are "certain" sins... that have eternal condemnation attached to them.

1 Cor 6:9; Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1 Cor 6:10; nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Does that mean if the sin I am specifically doing isn't on this list, I am good to go? Smoking, doing drugs being drunk is OK right?

Gal 5:19; Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20; idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ah ha... another list.

sorcery is mentioned here. The Greek word here is "pharmakeia". The word pharmacy comes from this word.
So if you are taking mind altering recreational drugs... you are practicing sorcery.

It also mentions drunkenness, and carousing here. It even mentions arguing and strife here.

So how about now? If my sin isn't on this... I'm good to go right?

There are other lists... but that really isn't my point. The question is... are there sins we can continuing doing as Christians
that God doesn't view as sin? My answer is no. But if you disagree... what scriptures support this and why do you believe it?

Finally there is also "willful" sin. Is there a difference between this and say "accidental or unintentional" sin?

Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27; but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries

So for the people who believe we will always sin.... that we will never stop sinning... how do you decide which sins
are acceptable? Or... are all sins equally acceptable? Keep in mind if you say they are....
That mean child-molester, murders, homosexuals, wife beaters, and people having extra-marital affairs are just as saved as you are.

Or could it simply be.. all sin is sin. All sin is punishable by death (the second death).

 

[Dave M]

@B-A-C

You never answered your own question I was hoping to get your view on this

"Finally there is also "willful" sin. Is there a difference between this and say "accidental or unintentional" sin?"

I think Willful sin we all agree on , but what is accidental sin or unintentional sin?

it is mentioned in the OT several times, not sure it is mentioned in the NT ??

but I remember asking on here if I Kill someone in a car accident unintentionally is that a sin?? what say you B-A-C? to me it is a example of accidental sin, @At Peace claims its not sin at all.

 

[B-A-C]

I think it is possible to commit "sin in ignorance". You may not "think" it is a sin. But it's still sin.

[NLT] Rom 2:12; When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God’s written law. And the Jews, who do have God’s law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
Rom 2:13; For merely listening to the law doesn’t make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight.
Rom 2:14; Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.

You will still be held accountable, even if you don't know it's sin. In fact it says we will be judged for being ignorant.

Almost every "Christian" I know that supports homosexuality... doesn't "think" it's a sin.

 

[B-A-C]

I guess I could take this a little further even... Someone might say .. "I don't think God exists".
Then they would say.. "not believing in God/Jesus isn't a sin because He doesn't exist anyway".

So does that make it "not" a sin, just because I don't think it's a sin?

 

[Dave M]

I guess I could take this a little further even... Someone might say .. "I don't think God exists".
Then they would say.. "not believing in God/Jesus isn't a sin because He doesn't exist anyway".

So does that make it "not" a sin, just because I don't think it's a sin?

depends who you ask LOL I have a freind who lives in sin yet claims God forgives him, I cant find any scripture to support his claim .

 

[B-A-C]

depends who you ask LOL I have a freind who lives in sin yet claims God forgives him

Yet another issue that divides the church. Probably for another thread I think.
Are all your "future" sins forgiven at the moment of salvation. Or... is it just your "past" sins, and future sins still have to be confessed and dealt with.

Keep in mind, this is yet another great divide in Calvinism and Arminianism.
Whether or not you believe in OSAS, has a great bearing on how you believe this.

 

[Dave M]

Yet another issue that divides the church. Probably for another thread I think.
Are all your "future" sins forgiven at the moment of salvation. Or... is it just your "past" sins, and future sins still have to be confessed and dealt with.

Keep in mind, this is yet another great divide in Calvinism and Arminianism.
Whether or not you believe in OSAS, has a great bearing on how you believe this.

so the question becomes can your name be blotted out of the book of life, I was reading the bible this morning and saw the answer to this question for the very first time.

Deuteronomy 29:20
The LORD will never be willing to forgive them; his wrath and zeal will burn against them. All the curses written in this book will fall on them, and the LORD will blot out their names from under heaven.

 

[B-A-C]

... also see Exod 32:32-33; Psalm 69:28; and Rev 3:5
.. but I think maybe we are drifting in this thread a little ")

 

[At Peace]

Is there really really a difference between the "types" of sins?

No.
The wages of sin is death.
No differentiation.

It seems there is "a" (single) sin that doesn't lead to death. ...

Yes there is.
It is a sin you repent of, turning from it forever.

 

[At Peace]

Finally there is also "willful" sin. Is there a difference between this and say "accidental or unintentional" sin?.

If we are to believe James, he writes in James 1:14-15..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
From this, we can determine that every sin needs a temptation, an enticement, lust, and conception.
None of this can happen in an "accidental" sin.
If I'm not tempted to run over that kid who rides his bike into my lane, but I kill him, there was no lust or enticement to satisfy.
Not a sin, though one would still mourn at the outcome.
If you were breaking the speed limit or driving recklessly, and hit the kid, you were satisfying a lust to ...whatever.
That would have been a sin.

 

[B-A-C]

No.
The wages of sin is death.
No differentiation.

I tend to agree with you. I just take a little different method of getting there sometimes. (not that your way is always wrong).
I think for some people... it works better to ask the questions and let them figure it out....
than it does to bash them over the head with "our opinions" (however right they may be). It seems that second
method just hardens their heart to whatever point we might be trying to make.

===================================================================================

with that in mind...
I'm asking those people who say they are Christians but still struggling with the same sins for years and years..
maybe decades. Have you ever said "if they were really a Christian, they wouldn't be doing those things or living like that".
But at the same time you are struggling with pornography (adultery), alcohol (dissipation), drugs (sorcery) thinking that
somehow your sin is "better" or "less of a sin" than their sin.
Why are you saved... and they aren't? They believe in Jesus just like you.

 

[At Peace]

I think it is possible to commit "sin in ignorance". You may not "think" it is a sin. But it's still sin.

[NLT] Rom 2:12; When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God’s written law. And the Jews, who do have God’s law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
Rom 2:13; For merely listening to the law doesn’t make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight.
Rom 2:14; Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.
You will still be held accountable, even if you don't know it's sin. In fact it says we will be judged for being ignorant.
Almost every "Christian" I know that supports homosexuality... doesn't "think" it's a sin.

They won't be judged for being ignorant, they will be judged for offending their own conscience.
All men know that murder, lying. and adultery etc. are wickedness.
There are no "Christian homo-sexuals".
There are Christians who have repented of homo-sexuality. And of every other kind of unwed fornication.

 

[At Peace]

I tend to agree with you. I just take a little different method of getting there sometimes. (not that your way is always wrong).
I think for some people... it works better to ask the questions and let them figure it out....
than it does to bash them over the head with "our opinions" (however right they may be).
It seems that second method just hardens their heart to whatever point we might be trying to make.
with that in mind...
I'm asking those people who say they are Christians but still struggling with the same sins for years and years..
maybe decades.
Have you ever said "if they were really a Christian, they wouldn't be doing those things or living like that"?
But at the same time you are struggling with pornography (adultery), alcohol (dissipation), drugs (sorcery) thinking that
somehow your sin is "better" or "less of a sin" than their sin.
Why are you saved... and they aren't? They believe in Jesus just like you.

You touch on a lot of different points.
It may be best to first determine who IS a Christian.
They would be the folks who HAVE turned from sin, crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, (Gal 5:24), and received the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)
Everyone else is an unbeliever...no matter if they SAY they believe or not.
Belief is manifested with obedience to God.
Disobedience manifests non-belief.
All those who still struggle with sin don't believe 1 Cor 10:13..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."
They don't believe Romans 6:2-7..."God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin."
The last verse, 7, is the result of believing the first 5.
Christians were killed for their sins, (1 Tim 5:24), "quickened" by the Holy Spirit: (Rom 8:11),and made the residence of the Spirit of God, the Comforter.

With the Spirit of God in us, we can determine the method used to approach others.
Some will fight tooth and nail against obedience, some will pretend to agree, and some, by the grace of God, will find they have met someone supplied by God to lead them away from the misery all converts hated.
It usually doesn't take long to determine which type you are dealing with.

The first time I met folks espousing the doctrine which is according to Godliness, I was made aware of 1 Peter 3:21.
I wanted that "clean conscience before God" more than anything else on earth.
I was baptized in water, in Jesus' name for the remission of my PAST sins, within the hour.
Thanks be to God!

Men can't teach with authority about something that is foreign to them.
Teachers who talk about their sin remind me of this verse..."While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage." (2 Peter 2:19)
Fortunately, when a man who wants to please God hears scripture, no matter who is speaking, he will be blessed with knowledge that will free him from bondage to sin.
God won't leave him adrift, but will get him in touch with those chosen by God to pastor and teach about Godliness.
Praise be to God!

 

[At Peace]

I tend to agree with you. I just take a little different method of getting there sometimes. (not that your way is always wrong).
I think for some people... it works better to ask the questions and let them figure it out....
than it does to bash them over the head with "our opinions" (however right they may be). It seems that second
method just hardens their heart to whatever point we might be trying to make.

===================================================================================

with that in mind...
I'm asking those people who say they are Christians but still struggling with the same sins for years and years..
maybe decades. Have you ever said "if they were really a Christian, they wouldn't be doing those things or living like that".
But at the same time you are struggling with pornography (adultery), alcohol (dissipation), drugs (sorcery) thinking that
somehow your sin is "better" or "less of a sin" than their sin.
Why are you saved... and they aren't? They believe in Jesus just like you.

That's just it.
They don't believe "like I do".
They love the sin more than they love God.

 

[B-A-C]

Acts 17:30; "Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent,
Acts 17:31; because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."

King James says God "winked at" sin in the past. But He doesn't now.

 

[amadeus2]

I think it is possible to commit "sin in ignorance". You may not "think" it is a sin. But it's still sin.

[NLT] Rom 2:12; When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God’s written law. And the Jews, who do have God’s law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it.
Rom 2:13; For merely listening to the law doesn’t make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight.
Rom 2:14; Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.

You will still be held accountable, even if you don't know it's sin. In fact it says we will be judged for being ignorant.

Almost every "Christian" I know that supports homosexuality... doesn't "think" it's a sin.

The sin committed in ignorance today can be anything we do as a result of our lack of love for the truth. Recall these verses:

"And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" II Thess 2:10-11

When we love the truth and while we continue to love the truth, we will not be led into delusion. What is delusion? Who is deluded? A deluded person is one who believes he is right and therefore makes no effort to change and does not bother to consult anyone about it... not even God.

Recall also these words written to the church at Ephesus:

"Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love." Rev 2:4

All of us perhaps remember well when we first acknowledged God's call to us and fell in love with Him. When we lost that first love, then believing we were OK we moved into the realm of delusion. We may believe we are OK, but if we have not consulted with God lately or surrendered to Him again, we may be walking in delusion instead of in truth.

How do we avoid moving into or being moved into delusion? By daily moving back to the beginning of our walk with God and loving the truth even when we may not know all of the details contained in truth.

"But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Matt 6:33

Also lay it all back on the altar [imo, this should include every belief and doctrine we hold] and don't presume to elevate yourself up to where you were yesterday or the last time you seriously talked to God... Let God lift you up!

"But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:10-11