If your brother sins

[B-A-C]

Matt 18:15; "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
Matt 18:16; "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
Matt 18:17; "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Matt 18:18; "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
Matt 18:19; "Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.
Matt 18:20; "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."

If your brother sins.... your brother? Who is it talking about here? Your biological brother?
Not everyone has a biological brother. But we all have spiritual brothers and sisters. Some churches teach against judging others, but sometimes we are called to. ... "go and show him his fault".

Some Christians think it is their job to be the morality police and judge other people. I'm not sure we need to point out every single sin a person does, but there comes a time when sin needs to be pointed out.

If he doesn't listen, bring two or three collaborators with you to verify the accusation... but also his response.
If he still doesn't listen.... tell it to the church.... It seems some are afraid to people they are living in sin.
So we let them go on living in sin because we are afraid we might offend them. I wonder... are we really doing them a favor letting them think they are OK? In some cases the churches is outright lying to people living in sin and telling them "it's OK".

If they still don't listen to you.... tell the church. You tried to do it the nice way. You tried to make a friend, but sometimes they still don't listen. Sometimes you have to bring it to the church. It seems sometimes none of us wants to be that guy.

If he doesn't listen to the church.... let him be as a Gentile. In this context Gentile means "an unsaved person".
Don't coddle them, don't lie to them and tell them "it's all good". Treat them like they aren't saved. That doesn't mean "hate" them. In fact we can always continue to pray for them.

Whatever grudges and unforgiveness we hold onto here on earth will be held against us in heaven.
But the other side of that coin is... if we tell people they are forgiven even when they continue in sin...
those things will be held against us in heaven also.

There is a similar passage in Luke.

Luke 17:3; "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
Luke 17:4; "And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' forgive him."

If your brother sins.... sometimes our "brothers and sisters" sin. But IF... if... if... they repent.
It seems that if don't repent... we aren't required to forgive them. But IF... they do repent.
We are supposed to forgive them even seven times.

 

[At Peace]

Matt 18:15; "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
Matt 18:16; "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
Matt 18:17; "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
Matt 18:18; "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
Matt 18:19; "Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.
Matt 18:20; "For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."

If your brother sins.... your brother? Who is it talking about here? Your biological brother?
Not everyone has a biological brother. But we all have spiritual brothers and sisters. Some churches teach against judging others, but sometimes we are called to. ... "go and show him his fault".

Some Christians think it is their job to be the morality police and judge other people. I'm not sure we need to point out every single sin a person does, but there comes a time when sin needs to be pointed out.

If he doesn't listen, bring two or three collaborators with you to verify the accusation... but also his response.
If he still doesn't listen.... tell it to the church.... It seems some are afraid to people they are living in sin.
So we let them go on living in sin because we are afraid we might offend them. I wonder... are we really doing them a favor letting them think they are OK? In some cases the churches is outright lying to people living in sin and telling them "it's OK".

If they still don't listen to you.... tell the church. You tried to do it the nice way. You tried to make a friend, but sometimes they still don't listen. Sometimes you have to bring it to the church. It seems sometimes none of us wants to be that guy.

If he doesn't listen to the church.... let him be as a Gentile. In this context Gentile means "an unsaved person".
Don't coddle them, don't lie to them and tell them "it's all good". Treat them like they aren't saved. That doesn't mean "hate" them. In fact we can always continue to pray for them.

Whatever grudges and unforgiveness we hold onto here on earth will be held against us in heaven.
But the other side of that coin is... if we tell people they are forgiven even when they continue in sin...
those things will be held against us in heaven also.

There is a similar passage in Luke.

Luke 17:3; "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
Luke 17:4; "And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' forgive him."

If your brother sins.... sometimes our "brothers and sisters" sin. But IF... if... if... they repent.
It seems that if don't repent... we aren't required to forgive them. But IF... they do repent.
We are supposed to forgive them even seven times.

Your version of the bible left out one crucial aspect of Matt 18:15..."Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee,"
This isn't about a sin one's brother may have committed against someone besides yourself.

It is also written to men of the OT who couldn't yet live without satisfying the flesh and could offer the most apt sacrifice as per the Mosaic Law for their atonement.
Their "brothers" were the rest of the Jews.
Brothers now in the NT, in Christ, born of incorruptible seed, do not bring forth evil fruit.
Fig trees cannot bear grapes.

 

[B-A-C]

It is also written to men of the OT who couldn't yet live without satisfying the flesh and could offer the most apt sacrifice as per the Mosaic Law for their atonement.
Their "brothers" were the rest of the Jews.

It says if they don't listen - go and tell it to the church. There was no "church" without Christians. These are brothers in the church.

 

[At Peace]

It says if they don't listen - go and tell it to the church. There was no "church" without Christians. These are brothers in the church.

That in no way refutes my post concerning OT forgiveness.
The NT verse you cite is valid, as a personal affront can be smoothed over face to face without church consideration, but sins against others are church only affairs to reckon with.
You can't forgive someone for a sin done to someone else.

 

[B-A-C]

You can't forgive someone for a sin done to someone else.

Fortunately God can. Also... can you forgive a sin done to you?

 

[At Peace]

Fortunately God can.

If the "sinner" turns from sin, He will.

Also... can you forgive a sin done to you?

Yes, as "the son of man has power on earth to forgive sins".
We must forgive, or we won;t be forgiven ourselves.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

You can't forgive someone for a sin done to someone else.

Greetings Brother,
That statement of yours is in total error and has no place in a Born Again Believer.

Two guys repeatedly raped, beat and filmed while torturing a loved one and they left her for dead.

I was REQUIRED to Forgive them.

Parents of the child who was hit and killed by a drunk driver were REQUIRED to forgive.

Please think before you claim such things.
Blessings to you and your family

 

[At Peace]

Greetings Brother,
That statement of yours is in total error and has no place in a Born Again Believer.
Two guys repeatedly raped, beat and filmed while torturing a loved one and they left her for dead.
I was REQUIRED to Forgive them.

I can understand forgiving them for their deeds that did impacted you.
Are we to forgive Hitler for his sins too?

Parents of the child who was hit and killed by a drunk driver were REQUIRED to forgive

Again, a sin that impacted the parents can be forgiven by the parents.
Are we all required to forgive the drunk driver for his sin against the family of that child?.
He didn't impact me a bit.

Please think before you claim such things.
Blessings to you and your family

The scope of your duty to forgive stops at what has been done that impacts you.
If we could forgive Stalin for his sins we would do that too. But he will be subject to God's judgement in the end.

Is it your duty to forgive the slave traders of the 1700-1800's?
Or those that massacred the Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics?
How about the Indians at the Little Big Horn?

We can't forgive folks for things that don't involve us.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

The scope of your duty to forgive stops at what has been done that impacts you.
If we could forgive Stalin for his sins we would do that too. But he will be subject to God's judgement in the end.

Is it your duty to forgive the slave traders of the 1700-1800's?
Or those that massacred the Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics?
How about the Indians at the Little Big Horn?

We can't forgive folks for things that

That's simply not true.
Notice Mark 11:25
When you stand Praying - Forgive - if YOU have aught against ANY

Brother we are Commanded to forgive Any, All, who so ever.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

If we could forgive Stalin for his sins we would do that too. But he will be subject to God's judgement in the end.

He will face God in the end no matter if we forgive him or not.
If he repented and took advantage of John 3:16, well he may be your neighbor in heaven.

Blessings to you

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Again, a sin that impacted the parents can be forgiven by the parents.
Are we all required to forgive the drunk driver for his sin against the family of that child?.
He didn't impact me a bit.

Most definitely you are to forgive the drunk driver. This impact thing is null and void brother.
Blessings to you

 

[At Peace]

That's simply not true.
Notice Mark 11:25
When you stand Praying - Forgive - if YOU have aught against ANY

Brother we are Commanded to forgive Any, All, who so ever.

What do I have against Hitler?
Nothing.

 

[At Peace]

He will face God in the end no matter if we forgive him or not.
If he repented and took advantage of John 3:16, well he may be your neighbor in heaven.

Blessings to you

Yep, he will get a righteous judgement with or without our forgiveness.
But as I have nothing against Stalin, though I realize the great evil he has committed, I can not forgive him for anything he did to me.

 

[At Peace]

Most definitely you are to forgive the drunk driver. This impact thing is null and void brother.
Blessings to you

Why would I forgive him for something he did to others that I don't even know?

 

[Hekuran]

The most helpful way to think about this passage is in terms of church health and the quality of relationships within the body of Christ.

First principle is that we should take responsibility for addressing things directly when problems arise. It's easy to sweep things aside, to try to ignore sins against us, or to privately nurse grudges. Alternatively, we keep all our Christian relationships at a superficial level so that we never get hurt. Jesus says we should address problems face to face so that relationships can be restored.

The second principle is that we involve as few people in addressing sin as possible.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

What do I have against Hitler?
Nothing.

Greetings @At Peace
I have no idea why you would reply with this or why you even brought stalin or Hitler into our conversation.

It began with you saying we can not forgive some one who did not sin directly against us.

I said that was in error.

Mark 11:25
Starts of with, when you stand Praying - Forgive - if you have aught against ANY

Look around and you will find aught in Christians hearts toward people, businesses and politicians etc.

They heard something on the news and quickly obtained aught against someone or something that was done to some one else.

They carry anger and I'll feelings towards them .
They must forgive them too.

That's all I was saying.
Blessings to you and your family

 

[Br. Bear]

into our conversation.

?

 

[At Peace]

Greetings @At Peace
I have no idea why you would reply with this or why you even brought stalin or Hitler into our conversation.
It began with you saying we can not forgive some one who did not sin directly against us.
I said that was in error.

You answered your own question.
Hitler and Stalin did nothing to me, so I have nothing to forgive them for.

Mark 11:25
Starts of with, when you stand Praying - Forgive - if you have aught against ANY

Look around and you will find aught in Christians hearts toward people, businesses and politicians etc.

They heard something on the news and quickly obtained aught against someone or something that was done to some one else.

They carry anger and I'll feelings towards them .
They must forgive them too.

That's all I was saying.
Blessings to you and your family

I understand your point.
But I can't forgive those who have nothing to be forgiven for.
It seemed like you were saying we should forgive those whose sins did not involve us.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

?

What is it you wish to understand?
Not sure what you wanted to know by the ?

I was referring to the conversation between @At Peace and myself concerning the statement he made that we can not forgive some one if they did not directly sin against us.

Hope this is what you were asking.
Blessings to you and your family

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

I understand your point.
But I can't forgive those who have nothing to be forgiven for.
It seemed like you were saying we should forgive those whose sins did not involve us.

We forgive when we are offended .
It does not matter if they did anything to you or not.

If you have aught against them then you need to repent and forgive.

2 huge guys beat an elderly man to near death. Could not even recognise him. All for about 4 dollars of bottles and cans.

That made me so I angry and I had aught big time against these two. I mean that was lower then low.

They did nothing to me but I still needed to repent and forgive them.

One can have something against another even if nothing was personally done to them.