Changing the Bible

[Dave M]

There are a lot of things in the Bible because faith and works. Obedience would be one of these things.
I will answer your question with a question.

1 Cor 6:9; Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1 Cor 6:10; nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Do you think people who practice fornication, idolatry, adultery, and homosexual lifestyles are saved?

Gal 5:19; Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20; idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Do you think people who practice sexual immorality, sorcery (drugs), drunkenness are in the kingdom of God?
Even if they are saved by grace through faith?

BAC I have seen you make lots of assertions about what seem to me like a work based salvation, perhaps I am not understanding you correctly, I hope so.

But you know nothing we do is good enough to get us into heaven right?

The theif on the cross had no time to do anything other then believe in Jesus and repent he was saved.

Good works does not save you, it earns you rewards in heaven once you have been saved you do good works and earn rewards or loose rewards according to how you live.

Doing all the good works in the world with out Grace of God will not save you. Works is a result of being saved.


The difference between all the religions in the entire world and the Christian Religion is that the Christian religion you are saved by the grace of God, all the other religions in the entire world you have to earn you way into heaven, my God says we are not good enough to earn our way into heaven so I will give you grace and once you receive grace it will change you and produce works in you.

People receive grace every day dying on there death bed who were drunkards and living in sin there entire life, will they have same rewards waiting for them in Heaven as the missionary who dedicated his life to God, no they wont but they will be heaven.

God Bless

 

[Born Again 2004]

Do you think people who practice fornication, idolatry, adultery, and homosexual lifestyles are saved?

Of course not! If you, in all our years of debate, can you find one incident where I have claimed this , please show us? The key word is practice

• 1 John 3:8The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work
• Also, Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil
• 1 John 2:28-29 And now, little children, abide in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink from him in shame at his coming. 29 If you know that he is righteous, you may be sure that everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him. " Practice Righteousness" does not mean is righteous perfectly!
• A true Christian may sin , yes....practice, no!

Do you think people who practice sexual immorality, sorcery (drugs), drunkenness are in the kingdom of God?
Even if they are saved by grace through faith?

• I would say that is up to God to know what is truly in a man's heart but, for me here, you use the word "practice" and the answer is no.
• I have asked you many questions over the years that you will not answer directly....I will try again:

1. Are you a true Christian
2. Do you sin?
3. Do you practice sin?

 

[B-A-C]

• Are you a true Christian

• Do you sin?

• Do you practice sin?

Yes, I am a Christian.
Yes, I have sinned since I have been a Christian.
No, I do not practice sin.

But I am not only talking about sin here. I think that is where the disconnect here is.

In the parable of the talents, which two servants did Jesus say "well done" to? The two that did "works", or the one that did nothing?
Which one of the servants did he say "Throw that wicked and lazy servant out" to? The one that did nothing, or the two that did "works"? ( Matt 25; )

In the teaching of the sheep and goats....
Which were called sheep? The ones who visited the sick, fed the hungry and clothed the poor, or the ones who did nothing?
Which were called goats? The ones who did nothing, or the ones who did "works"?
Will the sheep or the goats be thrown into eternal punishment?

In the story about the good Samaritan, which one of the three people "loved their neighbor"? The two that walked past and pretended not to see.
Or the one that stopped and "works"?

I believe a rapist, murderer, child-molester can be saved... if they repent. "THAT" is grace. None of us deserve it, none of us can earn it.
However, if they keep on doing those things after they are saved.... The Bible says we can fall short of grace. ( Heb 12:15; )
It says some people turn grace into a license to sin. ( Jude 1:4; )

But those things have little to do with my answer. Grace "alone" does not keep us saved. We need it, we won't be saved without it.
But we are required to do things, besides sit on our butts "and believe in Jesus".

I believe someone struggling with pornography, smoking, drinking, gambling, and over eating can be saved, if they repent.
But I see no difference between these sins, and the sins listed above (child-molesting, murder, homosexuality, etc...) sin is sin.
Obedience is required.

Jesus said "it is finished" ( John 19:30; ) He did His part. But we still have to do ours.
Even though His works are finished, disobedience can keep us out of heaven. ( Heb 4:3; Heb 4:11; )

"Not" sinning is not a work. It is doesn't get extra points. It in itself does not save us.
In fact "not" sinning, is simply what is required of us. ( Luke 17:7-10; ) The fact is... none of us can say we've never sinned.
But a great many Christians can say "I've never done a good work". (Remember the wicked and lazy servant, the goat, and priest who didn't 'love his neighbor')

 

[Born Again 2004]

Yes, I am a Christian.
Yes, I have sinned since I have been a Christian.
No, I do not practice sin.

Then I say hooray; we are a lot closer than our many disagreements would indicate!

Yes , there is a disconnect between us and these interpretations bare that out! Yes, I want to do good works and ,yes. Faith without works is dead. The difference is I want to do the works of the Lord through and in me. Instead of just allowing the Lord to work through you, you insist that YOU must find works to do for the Lord. Sit back, allow the Lord to WORK through you and give him all the credit....especially because God said it is not of ourselves, not our works......what happens through us is of the Lord and each one is a gift!

In the parable of the talents, which two servants did Jesus say "well done" to? The two that did "works", or the one that did nothing?
Which one of the servants did he say "Throw that wicked and lazy servant out" to? The one that did nothing, or the two that did "works"? ( Matt 25; )

This is an analogy. It is not about increasing gold, it was about increasing believers! The ones who grew the gold( God's Kingdom), did it by doing the works /bidding of the Lord. The one who did nothing, didn't do as the Lord requested,,,,sure he didn't loose anything, except possible simple interest..... but mainly he didn't expand the Kingdom of God.

In the teaching of the sheep and goats....
Which were called sheep? The ones who visited the sick, fed the hungry and clothed the poor, or the ones who did nothing?
Which were called goats? The ones who did nothing, or the ones who did "works"?
Will the sheep or the goats be thrown into eternal punishment?

Same analogy as above. In this parable you also have the ones (goats) that say "LORD-LORD" and Jesus says depart from me!

Jesus doesn't change, all these parables are about the same analogy!

 

[At Peace]

Here's one location for reviewing the Tyndall Bible.
Read the Tyndale Bible Free Online

Thanks.
From what I see so far, the KJV is faithful to it.

If errors they are. Then to help others to see the truth. Why else?

Good answer, but as to "why else" my answer is that some men seek an easier course than that prescribed in the KJV.
With the excision of the word "perfect", men can go along in sin without "the fear of the Lord".
Believing "adequate" instead of "perfect", justifies a life lived according to men, but not according to God.

With the way you state "newer", then if one is to look at all the Bibles, the KJV would be considered new to others that were previously written. Would that then be of the Devil?

Yes, in one sense.
I consider the KJV the result of the work done by interpreters who used Tyndale's and even older documents in the KJV's completion.
And I believe it was directed by God's hand.
Had it not been of God, the Spirit within me thinks God would have provided something better during the 400 years since it's completion.
But all we've gotten so far are in direct opposition to an already published work.

I don't ask you to change how you see the KJV, I would just ask you take a new approach on how you consider how others both, older and newer are viewed as to their origins. They are not of the Devil.

I see the "origins" of anything diluting the message of perfection as "of the devil".

I mentioned Covenants before. They are an example that they build upon each other. Doesn't make the one previous wrong, but serving a specific purpose.

The OT was accomplished by the NT.
They are from the same source.
Would the NT "feel" different to you if the word "gospel" was replaced with the word "News"?

I understand that for you the singular word is more important which relegates context of text unnecessary for you. This however, is not the case for others. If difficult for you to understand. Then think of it as a different language. That might help you understand that it doesn't make it evil.

The "singular word" defines the "context" in this case.
The context of perfection versus the context of adequacy.

The other question that comes to mind by your standards is "Why do we need the KJV when we have them?"

If we didn't have the KJV, we would still be using the Tyndale or whatever else was disposed to Godliness.
When I see versions of the bible disposed to ungodliness it creeps me, and the Spirit within me. out.
There is a war going on.
Versions of the bible that substitute "perfect" with "adequate" are instruments of the prince of the air.

Glad that some newer discoveries fortified your use of the KJV. I'm sure this has done it for others as well.

I pray you are right.

Or the seeking of truthful translation that brings them nearer to the original autographs.

Those who seek to obey God will never be left hanging in the breeze.
God provides for all our needs, including reading material and teachers.

 

[Dave M]

BAC I see what I think to be the main difference in our thought process I think . and that is the reason we do good works, from reading what you write it seems you think we have to do good works and that is a works based religion IMO

But being Obedient to God because we Love God is what grace produces, its all a matter of WHY you are obedient to God why you do good works, if you do it because you think you have to do it that is Law based religion. If you do it because you Love God that is what Grace produces.

You can keep the law and do all the good works you want but if your heart is not in the right place you still do not receive Grace and are not saved. Yet if you are unable to do any good works because you repented and came to Jesus right before you die you will receive grace and be saved.

Thats the way I see it any how, Good work is something a saved person wants to do it earns you rewards it does not earn you salvation.

 

[Christ4Ever]

From what I see so far, the KJV is faithful to it.

Your answer to this surprised me. Thank-you for your honesty. That is a rare commodity these days, even at times amongst believers!

Yes, in one sense.
I consider the KJV the result of the work done by interpreters who used Tyndale's and even older documents in the KJV's completion.
And I believe it was directed by God's hand.
Had it not been of God, the Spirit within me thinks God would have provided something better during the 400 years since it's completion.
But all we've gotten so far are in direct opposition to an already published work.

In some cases you are correct, while in others, I'd have to disagree. For me the greater import is if the translations have a foundation from the original manuscripts.

I see the "origins" of anything diluting the message of perfection as "of the devil".

You'd have to know the origins first.

The OT was accomplished by the NT.
They are from the same source.
Would the NT "feel" different to you if the word "gospel" was replaced with the word "News"?

You mean "Gospel" replaced with "Good News"? No problem

Those who seek to obey God will never be left hanging in the breeze.

Amen! Rightly said.

I did not answer some of your replies, because the only way to do so, would require me to move away from the subject at hand. This was not about the usage of the word "perfect". Though, in truth I couldn't help but divert a moment and answer the word change question of Gospel.

Once again, I do thank-you brother for your time, and consideration.

With the Love of Christ Jesus Brother.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[B-A-C]

But being Obedient to God because we Love God is what grace produces, its all a matter of WHY you are obedient to God why you do good works, if you do it because you think you have to do it that is Law based religion. If you do it because you Love God that is what Grace produces.

There are of course 40 verses in the NT that talk about us doing "works" in a positive way. Almost three times as many as say "works of the law".
The reason "why" may matter, but end the end... reason or not... they are still required.

 

[B-A-C]

,sure he didn't loose anything, except possible simple interes

Matt 25:30; "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

He lost a lot more than that.

As for the goats...

Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Eternal punishment sounds like a pretty big loss to me.

 

[At Peace]

Your answer to this surprised me. Thank-you for your honesty. That is a rare commodity these days, even at times amongst believers!

Your description of "believer" needs to change.
Believers don't tell lies.

In some cases you are correct, while in others, I'd have to disagree. For me the greater import is if the translations have a foundation from the original manuscripts.

Do you think the KJV has been taken from the original manuscripts?
I do.
If present day "bibles" are also using the same manuscripts shouldn't they have the same message as the KJV?

You'd have to know the origins first.

Does it really matter, if the result is ungodly?

You mean "Gospel" replaced with "Good News"? No problem

No, I mean just "News" in a generic not-so-crucial- manner.
Wouldn't the NT "feel" different to you if the word "gospel" was replaced with just the word "News"?

Amen! Rightly said.
I did not answer some of your replies, because the only way to do so, would require me to move away from the subject at hand. This was not about the usage of the word "perfect". Though, in truth I couldn't help but divert a moment and answer the word change question of Gospel.

I'll just mention it again, the first place I look to see if another version is from God is 2 Tim 3:17.
Without the word "perfect", I automatically discount the whole thing.
"A little leaven...".

 

[Dave M]

There are of course 40 verses in the NT that talk about us doing "works" in a positive way. Almost three times as many as say "works of the law".
The reason "why" may matter, but end the end... reason or not... they are still required.

My Dear Brother may I ask if works were required of the thief on the cross that died next to Jesus?? I think we both know the thief on the cross had no time to do any works, I also think we both know he was saved, so I would have to say this is the perfect example of Grace with no "required" works

Now my understanding is we will not all be equal in heaven, the thief on the cross will have little rewards waiting on him, I doubt he will here the most desired words of all believers "well done my faithful servant" but he is saved.

Salvation it through faith alone, rewards we receive are from works.


I think we all agree works is our own doing
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

1 Corinthians 15:10
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

Romans 6:1-4
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Grace is a gift from God and is the only way we can obtain salvation. he can give it to anyone he chooses.

Works is also from God and is a result of being saved, the why is very important because if works were require as you say then the thief on the cross would not of received grace, if works were required all those people that are saved in there last hour of life could not be saved. Because they have no works according to what I understand you are saying? I think the bible is clear all that is required to be saved is faith in Jesus Christ.

Works is a privilege my freind not a requirement.

 

[Christ4Ever]

@At Peace

Circles can benefit one in many different things, but I've found it never conducive to growth in the knowledge of His Word, or in Him.
It's been nice, but I do believe we've gone as far as we can on this subject of the Bible.
Once again thank-you for your time brother.

With the Love of Christ Jesus, may God bless you on the path you're walking.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Braveheart]

Yes Wired4 fishen I agree its splitting hairs as BAC says but that is speaking of the book of revaltion since its in the book of revaltion, although I am sure it applies to the entire bible as well.

One of the first things that made me leave the Catholic religion was when I herd they changed the 10 commandments, I could not believe it, yet I found a catholic bible in my house and wow one of the first pages sure enough the 10 commandments were changed, not to mention many other teaching of the bible are changed for there man made traditions over the word of God. Examples of this would

Praying to Mary
Calling preist father
Rosery beads
infant babtisim

just to name a few of the things that they change from the teaching of the bible to fit there man made traditions, but the one that is most evil in eyes that had me heading straight to hell was confession of your sins to a priest and thinking a man could forgive your sins O how that is pure evil and makes my skin crawl when I think of that now a-days.

They also changed the word of God in the book of Job
Changing God's Throne to Moon
Check out the hebrew using the bar at the top
To see the word is Throne not moon.
Job 26:9 He covers the face of the full moon, spreading his clouds over it.

3678. kisse or kisseh ►
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
seat, stool, throne
Or kicceh {kis-say'}; from kacah; properly, covered, i.e. A throne (as canopied) -- seat, stool, throne.

see HEBREW kacah

Forms and Transliterations

The KJV Websters and Youngs literal translation have it right
Young's Literal Translation
Taking hold of the face of the throne, Spreading over it His cloud

 

[Braveheart]

Yet another thing they changed in the book of Job in the same verses
Was Where it says God formed the fleeing Serpent
They changed to this

Job 26:13 By his breath the skies became fair; his hand pierced the gliding serpent.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Matt 25:30; "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

He lost a lot more than that.

As for the goats...

Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Eternal punishment sounds like a pretty big loss to me.

Of course!? ....I was just referring to what he did or,didn't do, for the lord in the parable!! I said the Parable was an analogy.....he would have been a goat!

 

[At Peace]

@At Peace

Circles can benefit one in many different things, but I've found it never conducive to growth in the knowledge of His Word, or in Him.
It's been nice, but I do believe we've gone as far as we can on this subject of the Bible.
Once again thank-you for your time brother.

With the Love of Christ Jesus, may God bless you on the path you're walking.
YBIC
Nick
<><

What do you mean by "circles"?

 

[Christ4Ever]

What do you mean by "circles"?

I keep coming back to the manuscripts and you keep coming back to the word perfect.
So our discussion has become circular.

Always with the Love of Christ Jesus Brother.
YBIC
Nick
<><

Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 1 John 4:7

 

[At Peace]

I keep coming back to the manuscripts and you keep coming back to the word perfect.
So our discussion has become circular.

Always with the Love of Christ Jesus Brother.
YBIC
Nick
<><
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 1 John 4:7

Isn't the word "perfect" in the orig' manuscripts?
If I decide to ignore so-called bibles for changing that word, doesn't it show we agree on this point?
I think it does.

 

[B-A-C]

The word King James uses as "perfect" is...

τέλειος
teleios
tel'-i-os
From G5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neuter (as noun, with G3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.
Total KJV occurrences: 19

 

[Dave M]

At Peace do you read the KJ of 1611. or the new updated modern version?


Summary: of the 362 words in these twelve verses, the KJV has undergone 41 (forty-one) specific alterations. This averages out to one change per 8.83 words. This is just slightly less than one change per 7.91 words that I suggested was the average,3 but two hundred and thirty-seven times the number Scott suggested. To be sure, these changes are not particularly significant—but this has been admitted by both sides. What is not admitted by KJV-only folks is that the changes in most modern translations from the KJV (though on a verbal level are certainly greater than these) do not affect the essentials of the faith. My argument about the KJV is not that it has undergone radical changes in its long history (although, to be sure, there are some rather significant changes in the KJV in various places, as has been frequently pointed out in the books by Bruce, Lewis, Kubo, etc. [see below for a few examples]), but that it has undergone changes—100,000 of them. I submit that many of the changes that modern translations make are a mere updating of the language of the KJV, yet even these get condemned on the basis of altering the Word of God. On that same basis, for the KJV to change at all would mean that it, too, stands condemned. I am not, of course, arguing that this is the case; I am arguing that there is a great deal of selective evidence used by KJV-only advocates used to support their position. As the adage goes, “Those who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.”

Changes to the KJV since 1611: An Illustration