The Grace of God

[Lanolin]

Um ok.
I thought God made heaven for those He saved can only enter if they believe in Jesus, it doesnt mean He already decided who will or will not believe. That is our choice cos we have free will.

The predetermined part is that Jesus will save not us- we cant save ourselves. And it was Jesus God predetermined would come to save from the beginning.

Gods grace isnt given to everyone though cos it isnt received by everyone. Not everyone will call upon His name but the people who do God will save to the utmost. God COULD give his grace to a dog or a pig...but they wont like it and will reject it.

People shouldnt get mixed up about this. Jesus wants everyone to be saved, but not everyone will follow Him. And some will betray him, like Judas.

When people talk about the elect, it is true God chose abraham, and his descendents apart from all the other people on this earth to be His. But this has now extended to the gentiles and anyone who has faith in Jesus. I dont know why God chose Abraham and not anyone else but thats what He did. Abraham wasnt particularly holy or righteous at first!

 

[Christ4Ever]

Exactly (at least we agree on this ) But there is no salvation outside of grace, so the only valid answer is "no".
With that in mind, if none of us deserve it (otherwise it wouldn't be grace, if we did deserve it) how can anyone dare say God withholds it from some people.

So, the clay tells the potter what it shall be?

Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? Romans 9:21

Of cause He doesn't withhold! It's His to give or not! Withholding implies that the receiver has something of worth that requires the giver to provide (fill in the blank). If this were so, it would no longer be grace as you have said.

Is it more cruel to believe that Grace once given is taken away or that it was never given in the first place? I believe neither is cruel, for I am but clay and not the purveyor of my own Salvation. Think on it dear brother. No matter how difficult it may appear to be. The faith given to us by our God is sufficient though the road can be more difficult till His Grace is given.

Have you noticed the difference in testimonies? Some roads are short, while others almost seem as if they would never end. Why is that? Surely, it is not due to lack of faith. For as has been said in more than one post here, each has been given enough faith to believe. So, what has prevented this supernatural moment of conversion? Is it possible that what they lacked till that moment was the Grace of God?

I fear to continue in this vein for we start to move off the mark of this thread. Also, this is only one Attribute amongst many. One thing I will say and do know by His Word. God's Grace will be understood by us, either in this life or in Eternal Life.

That you may know this brother. Though we may not always agree in total in this. I hold you with the highest esteem and have great love for you.

YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Born Again 2004]

There are all kinds of scriptures which indicate we have choice to receive him, to believe on him, or to reject him. And, yet there are many scriptures, as well, which teach predestination and God's absolute sovereignty, i.e. that we cannot even come to Christ unless the Father first draws us.

For me, there is a logical reason for all this and why it can get so confusing. Most of don't or don't take the time to understand what all Omnipotent, Omniscience and Omnipresent means. God being an absolute perfect being, he is perfect in power, knowing and presence !

• Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
  
• Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Simple, God, being perfect, knew us before the foundation ( long time ago), knew we would we chose him when called and predetermined that we would be saved according to his will!

 

[Lanolin]

People get confused when bible is talking about elect it is talking about Israel, Gods chosen people to be a holy nation and to be like Jesus.THey were predestined. But now this invitation is open to gentiles, because not all israel was saved, some refused (particularly Judah).

Please please read your bibles in order not just verses here and there!

 

[Sue J Love]

For me, there is a logical reason for all this and why it can get so confusing. Most of don't or don't take the time to understand what all Omnipotent, Omniscience and Omnipresent means. God being an absolute perfect being, he is perfect in power, knowing and presence !

• Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
  
• Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Simple, God, being perfect, knew us before the foundation ( long time ago), knew we would we chose him when called and predetermined that we would be saved according to his will!

But, he didn't just know us, as Ephesians 1 points out, but he chose us in him before the creation of the world. God told Jeremiah that before he was born that God set him apart to be a prophet to the nations. I know that, even before the creation of the world, that God not only knew me, but he had planned out who I should be and what I would do, i.e. what gifts and ministries he had designed specifically for me. And, yet I also know that I had to choose to follow him and to obey him. I had to yield to him and submit myself to his plan for my life. Every day I have to choose to do what he has assigned me to do. I am not a puppet on strings. I daily choose to take up my cross and follow Christ or I don't, but that doesn't change God's plans or his purposes for my life. They remain firm. But, his choosing of me, I don't believe, had to do with his mere knowledge of how I would respond to his calling. I believe we can only have faith because of Christ, i.e. I believe faith is also gifted to us, but it is a gift we must accept and appropriate to our lives. We only believe because the Father first draws us to Christ and then gives us the ability to believe and then when we do believe, he empowers us to live godly and holy lives pleasing to him.

Well, company is coming and I need to go get lunch ready, so this may not be a complete thought here.

 

[Lanolin]

God has given each us each a measure of faith..but we can choose what we do with this faith, whether to put it in Him or somebody else. For example, adam and eve, did God make Eve believe the serpents lie? Well no, but he gave her a measure of faith, she just chose wrongly and chose to believe a snake. She actually did believe God at first because she talked back to the snake about how she was forbidden to eat of that tree. But the serpent cast doubt in her mind, and turned her to trust his lie instead of God's truth.

So even while Eve had a measure of faith (to believe) she used it wrongly. She listened to a lie and was doubleminded. Many people are weak in faith and believe, but they also believe in anything anyone tells them. Faith can be in other things. JEsus doesnt MAKE anyone believe. It is our choice, the thing is He always tells the truth, so why would you NOT believe Him.

God didnt create Eve just so she could die. Even if she chose wrongly, He still worked out a plan for her. She just went outside His will. The thing is He brought her back but for His eternal purposes and plan not just in her (short) earthly life. For example, all of us are here because we can trace our origins back to Eve who is the mother of all living.

 

[Born Again 2004]

But, he didn't just know us, as Ephesians 1 points out, but he chose us in him before the creation of the world. God told Jeremiah that before he was born that God set him apart to be a prophet to the nations. I know that, even before the creation of the world, that God not only knew me, but he had planned out who I should be and what I would do, i.e. what gifts and ministries he had designed specifically for me. And, yet I also know that I had to choose to follow him and to obey him. I had to yield to him and submit myself to his plan for my life. Every day I have to choose to do what he has assigned me to do. I am not a puppet on strings. I daily choose to take up my cross and follow Christ or I don't, but that doesn't change God's plans or his purposes for my life. They remain firm. But, his choosing of me, I don't believe, had to do with his mere knowledge of how I would respond to his calling. I believe we can only have faith because of Christ, i.e. I believe faith is also gifted to us, but it is a gift we must accept and appropriate to our lives. We only believe because the Father first draws us to Christ and then gives us the ability to believe and then when we do believe, he empowers us to live godly and holy lives pleasing to him.

Well, company is coming and I need to go get lunch ready, so this may not be a complete thought here.

We are real close in agreement but I don't think you read or understood what I previously said. With a perfect God...all things are possible! I think it is very plausible that he knew us before time began- knew ,when offered, who would chose him- called us- accepted us- gave us Jesus-and justified us- just like new believers in the future who aren't even born yet!......Do you not think God is capable of all this?

 

[Born Again 2004]

People get confused when bible is talking about elect it is talking about Israel, Gods chosen people to be a holy nation and to be like Jesus.THey were predestined. But now this invitation is open to gentiles, because not all israel was saved, some refused (particularly Judah).
Please please read your bibles in order not just verses here and there![/QUOTE

 

[Born Again 2004]

He predestined them and predestine the Gentiles.....all of us...all believers!

 

[Sue J Love]

We are real close in agreement but I don't think you read or understood what I previously said. With a perfect God...all things are possible! I think it is very plausible that he knew us before time began- knew ,when offered, who would chose him- called us- accepted us- gave us Jesus-and justified us- just like new believers in the future who aren't even born yet!......Do you not think God is capable of all this?

Yes, he is. I don't disagree with what you stated. My point was that it is much more than that, which goes to what you said about all things being possible with God. It isn't that he just knew us before time began, but it is that he chose us specifically to be the people he designed us to be. And then he created us for that very purpose.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Yes, he is. I don't disagree with what you stated. My point was that it is much more than that, which goes to what you said about all things being possible with God. It isn't that he just knew us before time began, but it is that he chose us specifically to be the people he designed us to be. And then he created us for that very purpose.

Ok, but you previously you stated your belief in free will but here you don't? You can't explain free will if you say we were predrstine
first

 

[Sue J Love]

Ok, but you previously you stated your belief in free will but here you don't? You can't explain free will if you say we were predrstine
first

I believe the scriptures teach both free will and predestination, and that they are not opposing to each other. So, I believe in both free will and predestination, because I believe the scriptures. I don't have 100% clarity as to how these two work together, but I know they do, and the Lord is increasing my understanding as I grow in my knowledge of him.

Here are a couple of recent devotions, from my quiet times with him, where he has taught me on both free will and predestination, based on the scriptures where he had me reading at the time. Neither of these are theological essays or thorough discussions on these subjects, but they are my devotions. So, feel free to read them or not, but it might help to give you a better understanding of where I am coming from.

We Once Were

Honor and Praise

 

[Born Again 2004]

I believe the scriptures teach both free will and predestination, and that they are not opposing to each other. So, I believe in both free will and predestination, because I believe the scriptures. I don't have 100% clarity as to how these two work together, but I know they do, and the Lord is increasing my understanding as I grow in my knowledge of him.

Here are a couple of recent devotions, from my quiet times with him, where he has taught me on both free will and predestination, based on the scriptures where he had me reading at the time. Neither of these are theological essays or thorough discussions on these subjects, but they are my devotions. So, feel free to read them or not, but it might help to give you a better understanding of where I am coming from.

We Once Were

Honor and Praise

Agreed they both occur and work together....I just take it a step further... because God gave us an acute power to use logic.....though they work together, logically free choice comes first!

 

[Lanolin]

Maybe its not something we finite humans can resolve cos we arent God.

But see God has created us and wants to adopt us into His family. That we are called and chosen is by His grace. We can choose to obey or disobey His calling. Of course God is going to choose the ones that obey!

Think of it like kittens. There are five of them and you want to adopt them all. So you call them saying puss puss come here. But maybe only three listen and come to your voice. Which ones are you going to keep? Which ones will you choose to take home with you?

 

[Born Again 2004]

Dear @Sue J Love and @Lanolin ... You are both Christians Sisters no doubt to me. I personally don't think our discussion has anything to do with our ultimate salvation; after all, to all Jesus is our Lord and savior, we all believe.."Who ever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved". When it comes to God, everything is from him, " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being".

I usually over analyze everything and, I am sure to some degree of fault. Just think how many millions of people out there could care less about even having this discussion, praise God that we love him and love to discuss such matters. Though, none of us are 100% accurate, the "Chicken or the Egg" analogy here is a good one, because out there some where a Scientist has a pretty good answer based on evidence and their God given Logic. Our discussion is similar between Predestination vs. Free will. The chicken or egg outcome has no effect on the power and sovereignty of God and how he spoke it into being just before the foundation. How for sure, I just don't know how but God devised a plan that includes predestination and free will to occur, though to our physical world they are apposed to each other.

For me, from the entirety of the Bible and logic, I say that free will occurs first, then predestination. But, for sure, someday we will all be up there together and laughing when we find out the this and all of our other questions...I really want to know about the Chicken and Egg!

 

[KingJ]

Christ4Ever, my post is directed at Arthur Pink and Calvinism. Please don't take anything I say personally.

Calvinism is a wicked belief and implies God is wicked. It is a half truth / twisting of scripture / sounds right but is horribly wrong. I was agreeing with a lot of what Arthur Pink was saying until these statements were made:

Neither in the Old Testament nor in the New is the grace of God ever mentioned in connection with mankind generally,

The achilles heel of Calvinism, John 3:16: For God so loved the world.

Nay, more; it is the favor of God shown to those who not only have no positive deserts of their own, but who are thoroughly ill-deserving and hell-deserving. If the sinner insists upon bare justice, then the Lake of Fire must be his eternal portion

No. In the OT there was a split in Hades with Abraham's bosom. If there was no grace, something similar would be our eternal home. Mixing repentant with unrepentant sinners is madness. God is not mad nor evil. Psalm 51:17 and John 3:19 are crystal clear on this.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. If it be of works, then is it no more grace, otherwise work is no more work.” Grace and works will no more unite than an acid and an alkali.

An absolute miss-interpretation of scripture. On par with saying because I am white I am a racist. No matter how hard I work on being black friendly, I am a racist.
Ultimate grace from God is our salvation from death. Salvation is a plane that leaves the airport for heaven. We need to get to the airport. Whomever (John 3:16) gets there, may board. Yes, we have nothing to do with building the place, God did that. Proposing He takes us from where we are, when we don't want to go the airport, is just insane.

But the great God is under no obligation to any of his creatures, least of all to those who are rebels against him.
To complain against the partiality of grace is suicidal.

To complain against any partiality is our God given right. He gave us this ability when He gave us higher intelligence. If we can't, I don’t want to imagine what heaven will be like.

We give thanks because God is good Psalm 136:1. We need to grasp that God is impartial Acts 10:34.

It is very easy to assume that since God is sovereign and omniscient, He must therefore be partial with His grace. But this simply a terrible assumption. All we have shown is that we grasp the dictionary definition of the terms. God is as good as He is great 1 John 1:5.

Just because God can be wicked (partiality is wicked, just ask the guy burning in hell), does not mean He is. So let us who are righteous rejoice in the Lord Psalm 97:2... because He is righteous, fair and just on all.

 

[KingJ]

So, the clay tells the potter what it shall be?

Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? Romans 9:21

We cannot quote any verse from Rom 9 without the rest of scripture shining light on it. Paul is simply making it crystal clear to all that God, is God. The rest of scripture tells us about this God we serve. He is impartial Acts 10:34. He does listen to the clay Deut 9:19. He wants the clay to judge Him Eph 3:18. He wants the clay to agree with Him on His ways Rom 12:9.

Calvinism seems right on the outside. But very little scratching reveals darkness. God is not partial in the slightest. Suggesting He is, is simply not the gospel we have heard 1 John 1:5.

We can smoke screen it as much as we want. It implies God is wicked. Partiality is evil, bottom line.

Like Sue I had to re-read the OP to ensure I wasn't miss-interpreting it. I found truth mixed with lies.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Calvinism
the doctrines and teachings of Calvin or his followers,emphasizing predestination, the sovereignty of God, the supreme authority of the Scriptures, and the irresistibility of grace.

Arminianism
the doctrinal teachings of Jacobus Arminius or his followers, especially the doctrine that Christ died for all people and not only for the elect.

I repented and ask God to come into my life. Ever-sense, I have had this unquenchable thirst for God knowledge and have been reading and studying the Bible. For years I have come across this argument between predestination, free will and grace. People can call me or put me into what ever category they please, I am only concerned what God thinks of me. I don't really know what group I belong in because I firmly think in God's realm,predestination, free will and grace all fit nicely together and someday soon we will all know how.

 

[Lanolin]

I always figured those two isms were extremes and it was somewhere in between.

My kitten example wasnt really perfect cos as we know cats dont always come when they are called but I think they know love when they are given it. I think its because I have cats as pets not sheep lol.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Yes, he is. I don't disagree with what you stated. My point was that it is much more than that, which goes to what you said about all things being possible with God. It isn't that he just knew us before time began, but it is that he chose us specifically to be the people he designed us to be. And then he created us for that very purpose.

It isn't that he just knew us before time began, but it is that he chose us specifically to be the people he designed us to be.

If I may, and if you have a thought on it, just exactly how did God determine who he predestine and who he wouldn't?