can you be a believer and not a disciple

[Dave M]

can you be a believer and not a disciple, I would not think so

 

[B-A-C]

I think this is the main question that separates the church today. Some churches actually preach that you do not.

Jas 2:19; You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

What separates us from the demons if all we do "is believe".

Matt 7:22; "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

What separates us from these people if we are still practicing sin?

Matt 28:19; "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Matt 28:20; teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

When Jesus gives the great commission, He says "make disciples" out in all the nations. He teach to "teach them" to not only hear what I
said, but to "observe" (do) all the things I said to do. A lot of people take part of this verse and say "He is with me always, no matter what".
But it says He is with those who are out making disciples of the nations and teaching them what Jesus said.

Matt 7:24; "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt 7:25; "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
Matt 7:26; "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Matt 7:27; "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall."

Some of the spiritual temples we are building up, aren't all made of "living stones". (1 Pet 2:5; ) but appear to be made of sand.
What separates the houses built on stones from the houses built on the sand above?

Rom 2:13; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Jas 1:22; But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

1 Jn 1:6; If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;

Jesus said "follow me" (over a dozen times) Mark 4:9; Matt 8:22; Matt 9:9; Matt 10:38; Matt 16:24; Matt 19:21; Mark 1:17;
Mark 2:14; Mark 8:34; Mark 10:21; Luke 5:27; Luke 9:23; Luke 9:59; Luke 18:22; John 12:26; John 21:19; etc... )

In fact anyone who does not take up his cross ... "and" ... follow Jesus... is not worthy of Jesus. Matt 10:38;

Jesus says His sheep... "follow" Him. John 10:4; John 10:27; Some turn aside to follow others ( 1 Tim 5:15; )

Have you ever played "follow the leader". It's a little different from "watch the leader" or even "listen to the leader".
When leader walks, you walk. When he runs, you run, When he jumps, you jump. When he skips you skip, When he sits you sit.
When you are following the leader, you do what they do. You live like He lived.

A when shepherd leads sheep, some of the sheep don't like to follow. Some sheep go astray. Matt 18:12; Isa 53:6; Jer 50:6;
But it is only the sheep who "follow" the good shepherd besides the still waters and into green pastures who are protected
by His rod and His staff. There are many who claim to be sheep who are only following what they want to do.

Luke 6:46; "Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?

 

[Dave M]

Excellent Post BAC ,

I have been seeing this type of topic come up often and most are saying all you do is "believe" (sound like lip service) and you are good to go, it just does not sit well with me. The Holly Spirit transforms lives although it may be a slow process or not, we are changed when are belief is from our heart, I know I was. I am suspect when I here people claiming you wont necessarily be changed when you are saved.

Also the parable of the sower comes to mind, as I believe Jesus is telling us all that produce no fruit are unsaved and the one that produce fruit are the saved. Although the amount of fruit will vary greatly.

 

[Lanolin]

I think many people seem to struggle with doing the word.

People can hear it but they dont necessarily do it..obey. I visited a different church on .sunday and one person got up and confessed he found it really hard...he believed in his mind but it hadn't reached his heart.

Maybe he was being convicted in the sermon but he was one of the speakers and the one waving his hands around at the front. But, and I dont usually judge on appearances, but not knowing who he was I noticed he was wearing a star wars cap and a t shirt with lots of stars on it, and I did wonder why he is wearing those sort of clothes to church. Does he not know that star wars is based on occult teaching? It was kind of distracting seeing him with those brands and symbols on his clothes.

The first thing I would have done, was ditch those brand clothes and just worn plain clothes rather than advertise a movie in church or wherever I go. Just little things to obey like that are sometimes what the Lord wants. And they are not necessarily hard things to do. But people like to keep their separate idenitities I find.

Anyway pleas pray for this guy..people really need to believe with their heart not just their mouths and paying lip service cos thats not what God wants.

 

[B-A-C]

I have been seeing this type of topic come up often and most are saying all you do is "believe" (sound like lip service) and you are good to go, it just does not sit well with me.

I guess the question is... does it sit well with God?

Almost every single parable Jesus taught requires participation. Just about every one.
The talents require investing.. (either money, time or both). The sheep and goats require giving.
The pearl of great price requires searching. The prodigal son requires returning to the Father.
The faithful steward required being responsible with what was given to him. The story of the good Samaritan
requires giving and compassion. The parable of the 10 virgins virgins required filling your lamp with oil.
The parable of the unforgiving servant required giving forgiveness. The parable of the friend at night required
persistent prayer. The parable of the sower required either planting, or watering, or reaping. Even the mustard seed
in the parable of the mustard seed had to be sown. The parables of the lost coin and the lost sheep require repentance.
The parable of the tree in the masters vineyard required bearing fruit. The parable of the grain of wheat requires dying
to self. The parable of the rich fool (building grain houses for himself) required sharing and giving to others. The
parable of the workers in the field required ..umm.... working. The parables of the hidden treasure and the costly pearl require selling out to Jesus. The parable of the landowner who planted a vineyard required accepting the authority of his son and his inheritance.

Very very few of the parables Jesus told just required simply passively doing nothing.

 

[Dave M]

Bac you mind if I use that, I have a group on face book that is trying to tell me that luke warm people Jesus was talking to are saved

 

[B-A-C]

Bac you mind if I use that

Sure, feel free.

 

[Dave M]

I quoted you on face book group for a group that is saying luke warm is ok, beleive with out doing any thing is ok, no repent is ok. So I took that one above along with another one in this thread and but BAC on the bottom also used quotes so that it did not look like I was taking credit for the writing only that I was agreeing with it and using it to drive home a point

 

[amadeus2]

Bac you mind if I use that, I have a group on face book that is trying to tell me that luke warm people Jesus was talking to are saved

I guess not many people read the Book of Revelation, which also quotes Jesus:

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue [spit] thee out of my mouth." Rev 3:15-16

Unbelievers are cold, but they still have hope of encountering and accepting the Lord.

Lukewarm people have met the Lord, but want to straddle the fence between God's Way and their own ways. Once you have been spit out by the Lord, what hope remains to you?

 

[Curtis]

It is impossible for a person who has true faith not to have works following them. As Jesus once said, "... these signs shall follow them that believe..." (Mark 16:17) Jesus did not say these signs shall follow them that do these things. He said these signs shall follow them that believe!! Signs follow the person who has faith. Anybody can have works without faith, but it is impossible for a man to have faith without works.

 

[KingJ]

can you be a believer and not a disciple.

Yes.

James 2:19 says ''you believe in one God / God is one''. It is not suggesting you believe in Jesus for salvation. Believe He is the Messiah. Such belief is only possible with the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3. With a revelation from God Himself Matt 16:16-17.

If we look at the criminal next to Jesus on the cross, he had no works and yet we know from Jesus's words that he went to heaven. So it is possible to believe and do no works and still go to heaven.

People need to properly grasp what exactly it takes to ''believe''.

 

[Lanolin]

He was saying that the jewish people believe in God, of course...all of them did but they didnt believe He sent his Son.

Many people believe in God but do not know His son.
The criminal on the cross believed in Jesus as the son of God, and declared it out loud. And people heard him...he was a witness. Confessing with your mouth and believing with your heart is an action..and if you continue to live and walk after that God will prepare you further good works to do, which involves telling others about Jesus. So you cannot say this criminal was not forgiven or did NO work. Also this criminal was totally prepared to die. Can you say that for yourself right now?

I think there are people who just believe there is a god, but when it comes to professing faith cannot actually say the words Jesus is Lord and thus cannot be a witness.

I think lukewarm people just have a hard time obeying God once they are saved. They know they ought to but they just want to sit on the fence and hold on to their own life.

 

[Dave M]

I guess not many people read the Book of Revelation, which also quotes Jesus:

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue [spit] thee out of my mouth." Rev 3:15-16

Unbelievers are cold, but they still have hope of encountering and accepting the Lord.

Lukewarm people have met the Lord, but want to straddle the fence between God's Way and their own ways. Once you have been spit out by the Lord, what hope remains to you?

I agree but they are saying they even though they are spit out they are saved, I may have to leave that group they have a doctrine of beleive do nothing see no change and you are saved I do not agree with that. The holy spirit comes in you you will change it may be a little a time or a lot it may be outward or just inward but you will change

 

[KingJ]

I guess not many people read the Book of Revelation, which also quotes Jesus:
"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue [spit] thee out of my mouth." Rev 3:15-16
Unbelievers are cold, but they still have hope of encountering and accepting the Lord.
Lukewarm people have met the Lord, but want to straddle the fence between God's Way and their own ways. Once you have been spit out by the Lord, what hope remains to you?

I don't believe the lukewarm people referred to here were ever saved. It is the unsaved who hear the gospel and become Matt 7:22 type ''Christians'' instead of James 1:27 Christians.

To believe in Jesus as Messiah takes laying our lives down completely. Take the rich young man in Matt 19 as an example, he had to sell all he had. How does a Christian become lukewarm if he has sold all he had?

 

[KingJ]

I agree but they are saying they even though they are spit out they are saved, I may have to leave that group they have a doctrine of beleive do nothing see no change and you are saved I do not agree with that. The holy spirit comes in you you will change it may be a little a time or a lot it may be outward or just inward but you will change

Agreed. If Jesus is in us there is a non debatable sweetness that pours out of us, immediately. Slow to anger. Quick to forgive. Humble. Merciful. Talk with kindness. These are not works but clear signs. The unsaved do not have these. Selfishness and selflessness are polar opposites.

 

[Lanolin]

Personally I suspect lukewarm people are just lazy.

JEsus says..I know thy WORKS...but hes saying they not hot or cold but lukewarm. Well what is a lukewarm work. It's something half baked, neither one nor the other, mixed up.

What would be an example, well, say God wants you to give up alcohol, but you think its ok to drink on the weekends since you giving up five other days.

Or maybe God wants you to do some ministry, but you only do it out of obligation and dont like the people you are ministering to and treat them badly.

Or if you are keeping house, you dont bother to tidy or keep it clean. You dump jobs on other people and spend all the housekeeping money on yourself.

 

[Jesus_is_LORD]

I think this is the main question that separates the church today. Some churches actually preach that you do not.

Jas 2:19; You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

What separates us from the demons if all we do "is believe".

Matt 7:22; "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

What separates us from these people if we are still practicing sin?

Matt 28:19; "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
Matt 28:20; teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

When Jesus gives the great commission, He says "make disciples" out in all the nations. He teach to "teach them" to not only hear what I
said, but to "observe" (do) all the things I said to do. A lot of people take part of this verse and say "He is with me always, no matter what".
But it says He is with those who are out making disciples of the nations and teaching them what Jesus said.

Matt 7:24; "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.
Matt 7:25; "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
Matt 7:26; "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
Matt 7:27; "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall."

Some of the spiritual temples we are building up, aren't all made of "living stones". (1 Pet 2:5; ) but appear to be made of sand.
What separates the houses built on stones from the houses built on the sand above?

Rom 2:13; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
Jas 1:22; But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.

1 Jn 1:6; If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;

Jesus said "follow me" (over a dozen times) Mark 4:9; Matt 8:22; Matt 9:9; Matt 10:38; Matt 16:24; Matt 19:21; Mark 1:17;
Mark 2:14; Mark 8:34; Mark 10:21; Luke 5:27; Luke 9:23; Luke 9:59; Luke 18:22; John 12:26; John 21:19; etc... )

In fact anyone who does not take up his cross ... "and" ... follow Jesus... is not worthy of Jesus. Matt 10:38;

Jesus says His sheep... "follow" Him. John 10:4; John 10:27; Some turn aside to follow others ( 1 Tim 5:15; )

Have you ever played "follow the leader". It's a little different from "watch the leader" or even "listen to the leader".
When leader walks, you walk. When he runs, you run, When he jumps, you jump. When he skips you skip, When he sits you sit.
When you are following the leader, you do what they do. You live like He lived.

A when shepherd leads sheep, some of the sheep don't like to follow. Some sheep go astray. Matt 18:12; Isa 53:6; Jer 50:6;
But it is only the sheep who "follow" the good shepherd besides the still waters and into green pastures who are protected
by His rod and His staff. There are many who claim to be sheep who are only following what they want to do.

Luke 6:46; "Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?

Wow, very well said. Very well said indeed. Thank you.

 

[Curtis]

As

Yes.

James 2:19 says ''you believe in one God / God is one''. It is not suggesting you believe in Jesus for salvation. Believe He is the Messiah. Such belief is only possible with the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3. With a revelation from God Himself Matt 16:16-17.

If we look at the criminal next to Jesus on the cross, he had no works and yet we know from Jesus's words that he went to heaven. So it is possible to believe and do no works and still go to heaven.

People need to properly grasp what exactly it takes to ''believe''.

As the Apostle Paul once said,..."it is with the heart the man believes unto righteousness, and with his mouth confession is made unto salvation..." (Romans 10:9-10)

 

[amadeus2]

I agree but they are saying they even though they are spit out they are saved, I may have to leave that group they have a doctrine of beleive do nothing see no change and you are saved I do not agree with that. The holy spirit comes in you you will change it may be a little a time or a lot it may be outward or just inward but you will change

The Holy Spirit will most certainly change a person, but only as much as the person allows. Man still has and always has had the authority to say, No, to God. This is why that even people who have met the Master can and do get into trouble.

On the spitting people out of His mouth, it certainly occurs after we have met Him. He would have never tasted us in the first place if we have nothing worthy consuming. This is why when have once met the Master, we need to stop eating all of the garbage around us. We most certainly will become what we eat.

 

[amadeus2]

I don't believe the lukewarm people referred to here were ever saved. It is the unsaved who hear the gospel and become Matt 7:22 type ''Christians'' instead of James 1:27 Christians.

Of course this depends upon what is meant by "saved". People are saved from evil things, but then fail to hold the course to the end with Jesus. I believe it is the ones who fail to hold the course with Him who will be spit out. I believe that everyone began "cold" and when they moved to the Master [if they did] they moved away from the cold toward the hot. If we put a cold pot of water on the fire it will become hot, but if we turn down the heat or move the pot so that only a small part of it remains on the flame, it will soon become lukewarm.

To believe in Jesus as Messiah takes laying our lives down completely. Take the rich young man in Matt 19 as an example, he had to sell all he had. How does a Christian become lukewarm if he has sold all he had?

All that we have includes all of our decisions which remain to be made until we have finished our time here. While our hearts remain open to the temptations of this world [lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, pride of life], it is possible for us to partake of them. When we succumb to such temptations and actually sin, we are moving away from the heat toward the cold.

This is how I understand it.