Are drunkards saved?

[Hekuran]

Sounds like a wise parable and there is truth to it. But with regards to Christianity, nobody is born a child of God. We become children and the qualifying criteria is such an extremity / laying our lives down as Jesus did for us. So if we are a child, I believe God would overlook, basically any and everything we do do.

I don't care if my son behaves terribly to me his whole life if I know there was a time when he took a bullet for me.

Very much agree with you.

If the foundation of your faith as laying your life before Jesus, then I have complete confidence in God's grace -- no matter how many failures and disappointments on the way.

When the starting point of anyone's faith is the question 'How do I get into heaven?' Honestly, I worry for them.

In direct answer to the question in the opening post. Some of God's people struggle with addiction to alcohol. They fail, repent are restored, fail, repent and are restored time and time again. Some people never get full control of their addiction and live with the constant shame of their failure. I believe that when Jesus returns, restores justice and makes all things new, they will be liberated, declared righteous before God and glorified in the presence of all the saints.

Others might say "God forgives me, what does it matter if I am a cheat, a drunkard, greedy, a thief, abusive or a cheat?" That's a completely different scenario.

It's not how close you are to God's standards that's most important, it's the direction you are travelling.

 

[Lanolin]

Hmm again I stress deliverance. You dont need to struggle with something if you are completely delivered from it. Ask Jesus to break those chains and set you free.

Satan cant pin you down if you arent bound to him anymore. If people prayed more binding and loosing prayers, it would make a huge difference.

Many people say Gods grace is enough..while that is true, and there are times when it is so, when you have to endure something someone else is doing...but if its YOU who is commiting the sin then start knowing the truth so you can be set free, we are not called to bondage and struggle.

Some people need to learn the basics of spiritual warfare - because not just grace came by Jesus Christ he had the truth as well. Ask for revelation and wisdom from God about your situation.

 

[B-A-C]

2 Tim 3:1; But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.
2 Tim 3:2; For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
2 Tim 3:3; unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,
2 Tim 3:4; treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
2 Tim 3:5; holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

If Jesus doesn't give you the power to overcome sin, (I agree it doesn't always happen immediately) then does He have any power at all?
The reason these people aren't overcoming sin, is because they aren't yielding to Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

It's interesting that the same people who say "if you're saved you will automatically bear fruit" are the same people who are saying
you won't "automatically stop doing addictive sins".

I think when when start coming up with our own parables, rather than parables from the Bible it's easy to get side tracked.
Even parables with "some truth". When the serpent told Eve she would become like God... the was "some truth" in it. But a half
truth is still a whole lie.

The thread is picking on drunkeness... but there are many other sins equally as bad. Hmmm.. still I wonder if are many others equally
as prevalent? Maybe it's become so prevalent in our society that we have just become numb to it. Even in the church we have become
lukewarm and numb to it.

When you lay down your life to Jesus, and really give your heart to Him.... have you really done that if you're still holding on to sins
that are controlling you? If you're still living like you did before you were born again.... are you really born again?

John 8:34; Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is the slave of sin.

Rom 6:16; Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Jesus didn't die for us just so would keep on doing the sins we were doing before.

 

[B-A-C]

But with regards to Christianity, nobody is born a child of God.

I hear what you're saying.. but do infants and babies go to heaven? All of them? The question then becomes is everyone's
name written in the Book of Life? Do some of us get our names erased because of decisions we make when we get older?

Deut 29:20; "The LORD shall never be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the LORD and His jealousy will burn against that man, and every curse which is written in this book will rest on him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven.

Rev 3:5; 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Psa 69:28; May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.

Rev 2:4; 'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
Rev 2:5; 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.

 

[Lanolin]

Hmm that book of life is interesting...are we already written there from natural birth or only when we are born again. With children people often talk about the 'age of accountabilty' which starts around puberty for girls it would be first menses and boys around 12? Jewish boys have bar mitsvah but I heard girls had something like a bat mitsvah. Basically thats when boys become men and girls become women.


With regarding sin, children are basically children because they are incapable of reproducing, this only comes with adulthood, when sex is involved which happened in the garden of eden, adam and eve lost their innocence. When you add alcohol to the mix..which is rotten fruit juice basically, many peoples lose their inhibitions which seems to be why people drink. Why is alcohol not recommended for children to drink? Its not because only adults can handle it. Basically its a poison.

In china, it used to be if there was wine, you would use it in cooking you wouldnt drink it straight up. But now other countries are trying to convince the chinese that alcohol is a thing you drink and exporting wine there. There were no laws saying children couldnt drink alcohol because they didnt know the effects. The british brought in opium and the germans brought in beer. They had been using substances for centuries, but for those who had no idea what they were for..quicky succumbed.
The same happened with maori they had no such thing as alcohol and when it was first introduced they called it urine water, cos it tasted so bad, but many if the population took up the new thing and became addicted as a result, it was the worst thing that ever happened. There is a big drinking culture in nz. I know so many that died young because alcohol was a factor and usually involved violence, abuse and or a road crash.

 

[KingJ]

I hear what you're saying.. but do infants and babies go to heaven? All of them? The question then becomes is everyone's
name written in the Book of Life? Do some of us get our names erased because of decisions we make when we get older?

Deut 29:20; "The LORD shall never be willing to forgive him, but rather the anger of the LORD and His jealousy will burn against that man, and every curse which is written in this book will rest on him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven.

Rev 3:5; 'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

Psa 69:28; May they be blotted out of the book of life And may they not be recorded with the righteous.

Rev 2:4; 'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
Rev 2:5; 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.

There is no question that infants are not children of God. Eph 1:5 He predestined us for adoption.

I believe infants, teenagers (20 and under) and mentally handicapped will return to the earth in the millennium. I have written a detailed article before on why I believe this and will try find it and link it here.

There are 3 main reasons.

1. God is impartial and fair Acts 10:34. If God put the devil with Adam and Eve, God will do likewise with all. The idea of babies growing up in heaven and choosing to be evil / commit mortal sins and still be covered without repenting, is preferential treatment by God (evil) / insane.
2. All those that are still on earth to endure the bowl judgements / God's final plagues refuse to repent. Rev 16:18 for example. These people will go straight to hell when Jesus comes to have satan dethroned / cast into the abyss. They will not populate the earth. Those that believe they will need to recall how God dealt with the wicked with the flood and in Sodom.
3. The devil is released toward the end of the 1000 years to tempt mankind for the last time. Rev 20:7-10 Satan shall be loosed out of his prison and shall go out to deceive the nations. I believe people will live the full millennium. Jesus and us saints will be ruling for that period and we can sure beat green peace and current technology at extending life. All will be tempted by satan. That verse clearly says he goes to the 'four quarters' of the earth.

It is a non issue if God has another means of dealing with infants or if anyone envisions something different as we are discussing the largely unknown. We cannot disagree on scripture though. We need to use scripture to draw whatever picture of the future we wish to create. IE There is no debate that God is impartial. No debate that God destroys / removes the wicked from the earth. No debate that babies go straight to heaven as they are currently innocent.

 

[Lanolin]

The passage in the bible that says if you drink any deadly thing and it wont hurt you, was that refereing to alcohol.

Notice it doesnt say EAT any deadly thing. What deadly thing would people be drinking?

Personally I wouldnt go round drinking any deadly things. But there do seem to be people that can drink and have no ill effects, but thats few people in my experience..most people WILL get intoxicated if they drink alcohol. When its says drink responisbly basically it means dont drive afterwards. Because it WILL affect your judgement, not might.

You wont die from it if you do drink i suppose that is Gods protection if one is forced to but you do run the risk of harming others around you.

 

[Lanolin]

There is no question that infants are not children of God. Eph 1:5 He predestined us for adoption.

I believe infants and mentally handicapped will return to the earth in the millennium. I have written a detailed article before on why I believe this and will try find it and link it here.

There are 3 main reasons.

1. God is impartial and fair Acts 10:34. If God put the devil with Adam and Eve, God will do likewise with all. The idea of babies growing up in heaven and choosing to be evil / commit mortal sins and still be covered without repenting, is preferential treatment by God (evil) / insane.
2. All those that are still on earth to endure the bowl judgements / God's final plagues refuse to repent. Rev 16:18 for example. These people will go straight to hell when Jesus comes to have satan dethroned / cast into the abyss. They will not populate the earth. Those that believe they will need to recall how God dealt with the wicked with the flood and in Sodom.
3. The devil is released toward the end of the 1000 years to tempt mankind for the last time. Rev 20:7-10 Satan shall be loosed out of his prison and shall go out to deceive the nations. I believe people will live the full millennium. Jesus and us saints will be ruling for that period and we can sure beat green peace and current technology at extending life. All will be tempted by satan. That verse clearly says he goes to the 'four quarters' of the earth.

It is a non issue if God has another means of dealing with infants or if anyone envisions something different as we are discussing the largely unknown. We cannot disagree on scripture though. We need to use scripture to draw whatever picture of the future we wish to create. IE There is no debate that God is impartial. No debate that God destroys / removes the wicked from the earth. No debate that babies go straight to heaven as they are currently innocent.

Interesting king J.

Yes God does adopt us when we are born again.
I think it is given that children have innocence about them that is violated if they are introduced to adulthood when they are immature. And that God does have angels looking out for each child who is precious to him.

As far as abortions and still births are concerned, it would seem God has room for these souls as well. Im not sure about how much the faith of a parent can go towards a childs salvation but there was originally a reason why people thought they had to baptise babies.

However Jesus said dont forbid any child from coming to him.

 

[Bendito]

can you be a saved by saying "I believe" or "I have faith" but you are not obedient at all, you are a drunkard and also sexual immoral. I ask this question because I truly do not know the answer, (I would not put it to the test either), but I see this very scenario often in today's world. Doesn't true faith produce obedience? do you really believe if you keep living like that?? is the real question I think. We also have scripture flat out tells us that these people will not inherit the kingdom of heaven.

1 Corinthians 6:10
or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people--none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God.

I just see this as the prime example in today's america those people who say they are Christians. Heck I was one of them for most of my life . SO I just wonder

Dave you know that God can save anybody. You also know that babies need to grow..Baby Christians don't all grow at the same rate...Give them time, love, guidance, and a healthy dose of loving prayer. and watch them grow.

 

[Lanolin]

Just keep putting on the manure is what Jesus recommended for unfruitful trees. Then leave it for a year.

 

[GregMc]

this really helped drive it home for me maybe it will help someone else also


.a person who claims to be a Christian but yet never bears fruit and continues in a habitual life of sin, may not, in fact, be a Christian. (Indeed, Scripture says fornicators will not enter the kingdom of God, refering to those who live a lifestyle marked by this pattern of sin (1 Cor. 6:9).) Obviously, all Christians sin while here on earth, but the issue is one of continuing to practice sin in such a way that it suggests an unchanged (unsaved) heart.

1John 3:7-9 puts it this way:

Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God

Can someone continue in sin and still be saved? | Verse By Verse Ministry International

Dave I need talk to you. This is me now I need your help. Please msg me. This is old post.