He Who Lets
Active
I see "he who restrains"....where is the "he who lets"?
Loyal
LOL Its the same thing...One is from the KJV and one is from the CJB...Look at the KJV
Active
He is allowed to restrain or let...?.. and , eventually will be taken out....He would probably be Satin!
Loyal
LOL Its the same thing...One is from the KJV and one is from the CJB...Look at the KJV
What would you base that conclusion on? If Satan was taken out then sin would probably diminish in the Earth, but we know that it increases from that point. Am I right?
BTW....Happy belated birthday...
Member
Let's look at it in context (English Standard Version)
2 Thessalonians chapter 2
"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,34 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
What is being restrained? Clearly it is lawlessness.
What would need to be taken out of the way for lawlessness to be unrestrained?
To me the answer is simple. It is us, Christians because the Holy Spirit dwells in us.
2 Thessalonians chapter 2
"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,2 not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,34 who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
What is being restrained? Clearly it is lawlessness.
What would need to be taken out of the way for lawlessness to be unrestrained?
To me the answer is simple. It is us, Christians because the Holy Spirit dwells in us.
Loyal
Good, but is the Holy Spirit taken out too?
Loyal
I asked you this because the Word says that no man can be saved without he is drawn by the Holy Spirit.. John 6:44 (CJB)
44 No one can come to me unless the Father — the One who sent me — draws him. And I will raise him up on the Last Day.
That would mean that if the Holy Spirit is taken out nobody could get saved..
Member
I figured you may want a longer explanation of my understanding of this passage.
First of all when we are born again we are born of the Holy Spirit of God (John Chapter 3). It is The Holy Spirit in us that gives us boldness to speak the Good News. It is The Holy Spirit in us that is powerful. It is the Holy Spirit that connects us as individuals to the body of Christ as His Bride. When Jesus comes for us, His bride, we will be changed.
1 Corinthians chapter 15..
"Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality."
When Jesus comes for us, His Bride, we will meet Him in the air and that is not the same event as The Second Coming.
When we, His Bride, are taken out, The Holy Spirit within us will be taken out too. We are not condemned to wrath,
(Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.)
God's wrath is for those that rejected truth.
Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
So, because we are still here this world is not devoid of righteousness and the lawless one is restrained.
1 Thessalonians chapter 1
For not only has the word of the Lord sounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but your faith in God has gone forth everywhere, so that we need not say anything. For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
First of all when we are born again we are born of the Holy Spirit of God (John Chapter 3). It is The Holy Spirit in us that gives us boldness to speak the Good News. It is The Holy Spirit in us that is powerful. It is the Holy Spirit that connects us as individuals to the body of Christ as His Bride. When Jesus comes for us, His bride, we will be changed.
1 Corinthians chapter 15..
"Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality."
When Jesus comes for us, His Bride, we will meet Him in the air and that is not the same event as The Second Coming.
When we, His Bride, are taken out, The Holy Spirit within us will be taken out too. We are not condemned to wrath,
(Romans 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.)
God's wrath is for those that rejected truth.
Ephesians 5:6
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
So, because we are still here this world is not devoid of righteousness and the lawless one is restrained.
1 Thessalonians chapter 1
For not only has the word of the Lord sounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but your faith in God has gone forth everywhere, so that we need not say anything. For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.
Member
John 6
"Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Those folks will be with Jesus delivered from the wrath of God.
The tribulation saints are the ones that refuse the mark of the beast
Revelation chapter 20
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.
"Jesus answered them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Those folks will be with Jesus delivered from the wrath of God.
The tribulation saints are the ones that refuse the mark of the beast
Revelation chapter 20
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.
Member
For clarity... ALL born again believers will be with Jesus and those folks that rejected Him prior to His coming for His Bride but realize their error will wise up and refuse to worship the the beast and refuse the mark. In the passage I quoted in my last post from Revelation chapter 20 it says John saw the souls of those who had been beheaded... Souls not Spirit... Those who are born again (prior to the Bride being taken out of the way) are born of spirit. We all have bodies. We all have souls. But you must be born of Spirit to be the Bride of Christ.
Loyal
Very interesting reasoning..Let me ponder on it before I respond.
Loyal
One is not saved by action, but by the empowering PRESENCE OF God by faith in Him
Romans 10:9 (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Ephesians 2:8 (KJV)
8 For by grace (the empowering PRESENCE of God) are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Refusing the mark is nothing but a work. It takes no faith but an act of will
Keep in mind that God says one cannot be saved without the Holy Spirit draws him.
Loyal
In a sense, yes it is. Confess with my mouth is covenant though...refuse the mark is an action of my will..MY will. It's not covenant."Confess with thy mouth", sounds like a action to me.
So it's not the Holy Spirit that is taken out. If He was taken out nobody could be saved during the tribulation period....It is the bride however...Revelation 12 talks about the One New Man being caught up...The man child birthed by the church.
Active
Simple, go back to your 2 Thessalonians 2 and see verse 3!
Loyal
This verse talks of the apostasy that is coming upon the Earth. Do you know anything about that? As in...We're in the beginnings of it now.
Member
What are you talking about?
Revelation 12
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. 4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. 5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, 6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days.
The Revelation 12 sign will be a sign in the heavens.
I am aware that the planet Jupiter begins it's 42 week retrograde journey through the constellation Virgo this November. I am also aware that the "child" emerges from the constellation next September When three planets join the constellation Leo But it is my understanding that the "child" is caught up to God's throne is a representation of Jesus and the woman is Israel.
What is it you mean by "the man child birthed by the church"?
And how does that relate to lawlessness being restrained?