Holy Spirit vs Baptism of Holy Spirit

[B-A-C]

It's come up more times than I can count here on TJ.
But virtually all Pentecostals believe in something called the "Baptism" of the Holy Spirit.
There are many terms used interchangeably...
Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost,
Infilling, or indwelling of the Holy Spirit vs the Baptism of the Holy Spirit

==================================================================================

It seems virtually all non-Pentecostal/Charismatic denominations do not believe in a separation
of two separate events. They believe when you are saved, you get the Holy Spirit inside you at that moment
and there is no other 'Holy Spirit moment' afterwards. They believe either you have the Holy Spirit, or you
don't. They don't believe you get "part" of the Holy Spirit now, and another part of the Holy Spirit later.

===================================================================================

The other extreme of this is that you don't have the Holy Spirit just because you are saved.
In fact some believe getting the Holy Spirit is an entirely different event than getting salvation.
(Kind of like being water baptized, it may not happen right away when you accept Jesus).
Some even go so far as to say, without some type of external evidence (usually speaking in tongues)
You do not have the Holy Spirit inside you.

======================================================================================

But there is a middle ground. 'Most' (I do not have statistics on this, but just experience with many
different churches over the years) Pentecostals like the Assemblies of God for example, believe that
there are two separate 'Holy Spirit events'. They believe you get the Holy Spirit when you get saved,
but you don't get all of it. It seems the general consensus here is that you should at least have
enough of the Holy Spirit to be showing the fruits of the Spirit (Gal 5)
However at some point later (it could be the same day, but usually it isn't) you receive something
called the "Baptism" of the Holy Spirit (some make a distinction between "in the Holy Spirit" and
"of the Holy Spirit". The people that believe this usually say that some external; evidence
(such as speaking in tongues) should be evident... The believe that speaking in tongues may not be
your 'Spiritual gift' (1 Cor 12) but that you should do it at least the first time you receive the Holy Spirit.
Other Pentecostal denominations do not believe there has to be an external evidence for this immediately,
but at some point after this, you should have the evidence of one of the gifts (1 Cor 12) and they believe
that if you never show evidence of one (or more) of these gifts - you were never baptized in the Holy
Spirit.

==============================================================================================

Some denominations (most Baptists for example) do not believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit apply
anymore. Only the fruit and administrations of the Spirit apply now. So for them, no external evidence
is required, but it's impossible to have the evidence. However the majority of Baptists also do not
believe that receiving the Holy Spirit and being "Baptized" in the Holy Spirit are two separate events.

=============================================================================================

So what do you say?
Is having the Holy Spirit that same thing as being baptized in the Holy Spirit?
Do you receive the Holy Spirit immediately upon salvation?
Is being baptized in the Holy Spirit a separate experience from receiving the Holy Spirit?
Is an external evidence required to prove that you have been baptized in the Holy Spirit?
Do the gifts of the Holy Spirit still apply today?

I am interested in scriptures that support the various points of view here.

 

[B-A-C]

Many denominations will ask "Are you Spirit filled?" - but what they really mean is... have you been
baptized in the Holy Spirit.

Many charismatic/Pentecostal denominations don't believe that being "filled" with the Holy Spirit is a one time
event. But that you have to be re-filled occasionally or your oil will run out.

There are even some that believe that when you do certain sins you can grieve the Holy Spirit so much
that He will draw back from you. (Some believe He will depart from you altogether) but many believe
He doesn't entirely depart from you, but He no longer tries to led and guide you for a period of time.
They believe that the Holy Spirit is sort of watching you to see if you are repenting of this sin or not.
They believe it s a period of proving yourself - sort of a test to see if you are really repentant and obedient.

 

[B-A-C]

I know these scriptures have been posted a 1,000 times here on TJ... but just for the sake of definition.

=============== The FRUIT of the Spirit ==============
Gal 5:22; But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23; gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:25; If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

=============== The GIFTS of the Spirit =============
1 Cor 12:8; For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
1 Cor 12:9; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1 Cor 12:10; and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.

================ Authoritive order of the administrations/gifts of the Spirit =========
1 Cor 12:28; And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
1 Cor 12:29; All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
1 Cor 12:30; All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
1 Cor 12:31; But earnestly desire the greater gifts.
1 Cor 14:1; Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy

=============== The ADMINISTRATIONS of the Spirit =============
Eph 4:11; And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers,
Eph 4:12; for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;

 

[Waggles]

@B-A-C
I am not surprised that there is so much confusion and gobbledegook about the infilling of the Holy Spirit and the evidence thereof.

Obedience and submission to the Word of God is the most difficult act of compliance that any person can achieve.
Most "christians" and most churches (including Pentecostal) spend all their time inventing doctrine to avoid compliance and submission to the
commandments given by Jesus and the original Apostles. Hence confusion, and a plethora of competing doctrines and practices.

And yet the gospels, Acts and the epistles are really straightforward, and self explanatory.
In October 1996, an evangelist merely opened up his well worn KJV Bible and read out the necessary scriptures from John, Acts and the epistles about
being born again by water and the Spirit, with the Bible evidence of speaking in a new tongue (and these signs SHALL follow them that believe).
I was challenged and a bit unsure about this, being a Roman Catholic at the time. But, I prayed to Jesus to confirm his word and to show, me the truth.
He did so by leading me dramatically to a strict Bible loving Pentecostal Church where I was baptized in water by full immersion. One month later I burst
out speaking in a new tongue and received a wonderful revelation that Christ Jesus is alive, that he is my Lord and Saviour.
I experienced the truth of the Word.

My experience was exactly what is written in the scriptures, no more, no less. And these signs shall follow them that believe...
Twenty years later [December 2016] I still pray in tongues (praying in the Holy Ghost) with signs following. I have kept my testimony to my conversion and my walk in
the Spirit honest and visible. I and the saints have enjoyed a multitude of miracles, healings, protection, provision, and much answered prayer.

Read the scriptures and just do it!

 

[Fragrant Grace]

In October 1996, an evangelist merely opened up his well worn KJV Bible and read out the necessary scriptures from John, Acts and the epistles about
being born again by water and the Spirit, with the Bible evidence of speaking in a new tongue (and these signs SHALL follow them that believe).

Greetings @Waggles

Could you share the verses you refer to here in order to help others understand what you are saying.

Thank you

 

[B-A-C]

And yet the gospels, Acts and the epistles are really straightforward, and self explanatory.

I think you are right about this. So what is "the Bible way"?

The great commission is given in Matt 28 and Mark 16. This is the Mark version.

Mark 16:15; And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
Mark 16:16; "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Mark 16:17; "These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;
Mark 16:18; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
Mark 16:19; So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

In Mark... this was the very last thing Jesus said before He ascended into heaven.

Jesus mentions being born of the Spirit in John 3.

John 3:1; Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews;
John 3:2; this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him."
John 3:3; Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."
John 3:4; Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"
John 3:5; Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6; "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7; "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
John 3:8; "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."
John 3:9; Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?"
John 3:10; Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?

It seems many who are 'teachers' do not understand these things.

After Jesus was resurrected, (the disciples had already been following Him for 3 1/2 years
at this point) one of the last things He said to them in John was...

John 20:22; And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

There is some debate over whether this happened at this instant, or 10 days later in Acts 2.

John 16:7; "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.
John 16:8; "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;
John 16:9; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me;
John 16:10; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me;
John 16:11; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
John 16:12; "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
John 16:13; "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

It's interesting the Holy Spirit couldn't come to the church while Jesus was here.

John 7:38; "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.'"
John 7:39; But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

 

[B-A-C]

All four gospels record John the Baptist as saying ...
"I baptize with water for repentance".... but the One who is coming after me (Jesus)
will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Matt 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:33; as well as Acts 1:5;

So it seems one of things Jesus came to do for us... was to baptize us in the Holy Spirit.

 

[B-A-C]

I was texted by someone who read this thread a little earlier this morning.
I won't mention what denomination he attends other than to say it is a non-Pentecostal/charismatic
denomination.

He says he has been attending that church for over 20 years and has never heard the phrase "Baptism" of the
Holy Spirit. He has never heard it preached on. He has never seen it manifested. He has never heard anyone
prophesy, he has never seen anyone miraculously healed. He says they have had guest speakers, and substitute
pastors (when his regular pastor has been sick or on vacation) and even attended seminars that weren't at his
church, and none of these people (according to him, not even one) has even spoken on being baptized in the
Holy Spirit.

We talked (texted) back and forth, and he knows I am posting this, and I have his permission to say this.

But with so many scriptures that talk about being baptized in the Holy Spirit.... (over 35) why do some
churches not preach this? Why do some churches not exercise this power? Why do some churches
believe this isn't necessary? Why do some churches believe this doesn't apply anymore?

He has the same questions... he says he is going to ask his pastor.

 

[Waggles]

John 3:7 Wonder not that I said to thee: You must be born again.
8 The Spirit breatheth where he will and thou hearest his voice: but thou knowest not whence he cometh and whither he goeth.
So is every one that is born of the Spirit. DRB

Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,
and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. DRB

Acts 10:45 And the faithful of the circumcision, who came with Peter, were astonished for that the grace of the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Gentiles also.
46 For they heard them speaking with tongues and magnifying God.
47 Then Peter answered: Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, who have received the Holy Ghost, as well as we? DRB

Acts 19:1 And it came to pass, while Apollo was at Corinth, that Paul, having passed through the upper coasts, came to Ephesus and found certain disciples.
Act 19:2 And he said to them: Have you received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? But they said to him: We have not so much as heard whether there be a Holy Ghost.
Act 19:3 And he said: In what then were you baptized? Who said: In John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then Paul said: John baptized the people with the baptism of penance saying: That they should believe in him, who was to come after him, that is to say, in Jesus.
Act 19:5 Having heard these things, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had imposed his hands on them, the Holy Ghost came upon them: and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
Act 19:7 And all the men were about twelve. DRB

Romans 8:8 And they who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh, but the spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you.
Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. DRB

1Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore, I give you to understand that no man, speaking by the Spirit of God, saith Anathema to Jesus.
And no man can say The Lord Jesus, but by the Holy Ghost. DRB

Jude 1:17 But you, my dearly beloved, be mindful of the words which have been spoken before by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ:
18 Who told you that in the last time there should come mockers, walking according to their own desires in ungodlinesses.
19 These are they who separate themselves, sensual men, having not the Spirit.
20 But you, my beloved, building yourselves upon your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ, unto life everlasting. DRB

 

[B-A-C]

I agree with the scriptures above. And yet many prominent leaders (John MacArthur for example)
teach against this. What Does It Mean to Be Baptized with the Holy Spirit?
He has even written a book called "Strange Fire" that opposes this. He isn't the only one, but he is one
of the more prominent ones. There are several errors in his article posted above, for example

Paul carefully defines the baptism with the Spirit as that act of Christ by which He places believers into His body (Rom. 6:4–6; 1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27). In contrast to much errant teaching today, the New Testament nowhere commands believers to seek the baptism with the Spirit. It is a sovereign, single, unrepeatable act on God’s part, and is no more an experience than are its companions justification and adoption.

One of the things I notice here is that he uses Gal 3:27; to say that being baptized into Christ is the same thing
as being baptized in the Holy Spirit. - and yet Paul differentiated the two.

Acts 19:1; It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples.
Acts 19:2; He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether [a]there is a Holy Spirit.”
Acts 19:3; And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Acts 19:4; Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
Acts 19:5; When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 19:6; And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

It seems that being baptized in the name of Jesus, definitely is NOT the same thing as being baptized in the Holy Spirit.

The other comment he makes about it being a single act is also at odds with every instance in the Bible I can find.

For example, the 120 in the upper room (including the disciples) have all been saved for period of time.
Yet they didn't get baptized in the Holy Spirit until after Jesus left.

In the story on Cornelius and his friends and family, Cornelius had been a devout God fearing man for some
time before he met Peter, and yet he didn't get baptized in the Holy Spirit until he met Peter.

In the story of Paul meeting the disciples from Ephesus, they had already been baptized into John the Baptists
baptism of repentance, (it doesn't state how long ago)) but they didn't receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit
until they meet Paul.

Why would John MacArthur say this when every single instance in the Bible was two separate events?

 

[Waggles]

Why would John MacArthur say this when every single instance in the Bible was two separate events?

The spirit of anti-Christ... denial of the original apostolic gospel and therefore the freedom to preach another gospel.

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man cheat you by philosophy and vain deceit: according to the tradition of men according to the elements of the world
and not according to Christ.

 

[Waggles]

@B-A-C @Fragrant Grace
Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

And how did they know they had then received the Holy Ghost? There is only ONE Bible evidence for baptism in the Holy Ghost (receiving the indwelling
Holy Spirit) - speaking in new tongues or other tongues > praying in the Spirit

1Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and ...

1Corinthians 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also:
I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

 

[B-A-C]

Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Good find. Somehow I missed that one.

Eph 5:18; And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit,

Acts 5:32; "And we are witnesses of these things; and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him."
Acts 5:33; But when they heard this, they were cut to the quick and intended to kill them.

I think the 'Pharisee's' (of both that time, and this time) are still "cut to the quick" (their conscience convicts them) whenever
the word obedience comes up. Especially in relationship to the Holy Spirit.

Heb 5:8; Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.
Heb 5:9; And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

1 Pet 1:2; according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

It seems that if you're not obeying Jesus, the Holy Spirit isn't sanctifying you.

 

[B-A-C]

So, OK between @Waggles and myself we came up with five places that people did not receive the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit when they got saved.
The upper room in Acts 2, The Saul/Paul conversion in Acts 9, Cornelius and friends in Acts 10, The apostles in Jerusalem in Acts 14, and the disciples
at Ephesus in Acts 19. Also, so far no one has presented any scriptures to oppose this.

So what is the Pentecostal experience?
Well in four out of five cases above, it does mention speaking tongues. Acts 2:4; (Paul doesn't mention speaking in tongues in Acts 9, but he does he does in 1 Cor 14:18
Acts 10:45-46; Acts 8:14-17; is the one that doesn't mention tongues, and Acts 19:6;

For this reason many Pentecostal/charismatic denominations consider speaking in tongues "the initial evidence" of being "baptized in the Holy Spirit".

Some denominations also believe it is related to being baptized in water... however....
The disciples in the upper room were baptized in water before Acts 2. I do not believe it is recorded anywhere in the Bible that Paul was baptized in water. (However he baptized others)
However Cornelius and his friends were baptized in water 'after' they were baptized in the Holy Spirit (Acts 10:45-48; ) and the disciples at Ephesus were baptized
in water before they even "knew there was a Holy Spirit". (Acts 19:1-7; )

There is quite a bit of debate about whether the "evidence" of the baptism of the Holy Spirit is required or not.

For example John the Baptist was "filled" with the Holy Spirit while he was still in his mother's womb. ( Luke 1:15; )The questions are - Is being "filled" the same as being "baptized", and... if it is the same thing, did John the Baptist speak in tongues while in his mother's womb?

Elizabeth, John the Baptist's mother was also "filled" with the Holy Spirit ( Luke 1:41; )
but it doesn't mention her speaking in tongues.

Also Jesus mentioned speaking in tongues - Mark 16:17;

 

[Waggles]

I do not believe it is recorded anywhere in the Bible that Paul was baptized in water.

Wrong.
Saul's conversion
Acts 22:10 And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things
which are appointed for thee to do.
Acts 22:12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Acts 9:17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus,
that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

 

[Waggles]

@B-A-C @Fragrant Grace
The fundamental requirement in order to be a a true disciple is submission and obedience to the word of God - theology and arguments about how not to obey
the commandments of Jesus Christ, who is our Lord (Master), our Saviour, and our God - will only lead to condemnation.
Let us return to the words, the commandments of the One who will judge us all against the Holy Scriptures, and not against the teachings of men.

And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose.
I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Mark 1:7-8 [baptize = to fully immerse in liquid, etc.]

16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose:
he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.
Luke 3:16-17 compare Luke 3:16 with John 3:16 an equivalence here as to requirements for salvation - to believe in Jesus, to believe in the teachings and purpose
of Jesus.

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. John 4:23-24 [not all worshippers are true]

Mark 16:15-20 [the scriptures that Rome attempted to slash and burn, and that most other Christians wrestle with]
And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. [not much wriggle room here]
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you,
and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. John 14:15-18


NO WHERE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT DOES IT EVER STATE THAT THIS GOSPEL PREACHED BY JESUS AND THE APOSTLES WAS ONLY FOR
A SEASON, OR FOR THE FIRST GENERATION OF BELIEVERS, OR ONLY APPLICABLE UNTIL CONSTANTINE DID HIS THING.
Today [ever since the 1880s] the latter rain has been continuing in Pentecostal revivals throughout the world - the Book of Acts is still happening.
Therefore confirming the Word of God with signs following, as it was in the beginning. One gospel, one faith, one baptism, one Lord !

Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

 

[amadeus2]

Well lots of goods thoughts and scripture and discussion here, but in brief just exactly what is it we need to know and just what is it we need to do?

Seek His kingdom and His righteousness [Matt 6:33].

Me? I'm a tongue talker since way back in 1976. Now it is a daily thing with me. Most, but certainly not all, of my prayer is probably done in what people call unknown tongues. My own current pastor would say speaking in tongues is the evidence of the Holy Spirit/Ghost be it "baptism of" or "infilling with". I have come across too many people with different good experiences and beliefs to make a blanket statement that they don't have the Holy Ghost because they don't speak in tongues.

One of the first tongue talkersI met outside my home assembly (in 1976) was a practicing Catholic and yes, I believe that he had a measure of God's truth. Having come out of the Catholic Church myself I do know quite a bit about their beliefs. Always remember that God looks at the hearts more closely than any doctrines held.

In the OT people did experience God first hand and people were very definitely led by the same Holy Spirit [consider David: Psalm 51:11) as us today, but the door was not open yet for whosoever will and perhaps not fully open even to the selected few.

The door was opened [Matt 27:50-51]when Jesus paid the price that no other man was able to pay. In spite of this closed door, some few in OT knew what was happening. People were able to and had to work through the priests (descendants of Aaron) and other chosen men of God (prophets). There was no other choice. Now we have a direct line, although God still uses people with special gifts (Eph 4:11-15) to accomplish His purposes.

Did Jesus have the same gift or infilling of the Holy Spirit as we? He certainly spoke in an unknown tongue to many when he spoke in parables that were not to be understood by everyone.

"And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand." Luke 8:10

 

[B-A-C]

Did Jesus have the same gift or infilling of the Holy Spirit as we? He certainly spoke in an unknown tongue to many when he spoke in parables that were not to be understood by everyone.

"And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand." Luke 8:10

I had always taken... this passage about the "mysteries of the kingdom". To pertain to non-believers
rather than believers. Is it possible that God hides "some" things, from "some" believers?
I have to say, it seems unlikely to me.

I'm not sure a parable qualifies as an unknown tongue. Maybe, perhaps. But not understanding the
moral of a story seems different from not understanding the language it was spoken in.

 

[amadeus2]

I had always taken... this passage about the "mysteries of the kingdom". To pertain to non-believers
rather than believers. Is it possible that God hides "some" things, from "some" believers?
I have to say, it seems unlikely to me.

As Jesus grew and as John the Baptist grew so are all believers to grow. All of us who have not yet overcome every bit of darkness within ourselves still see as through a "glass darkly" in some areas. This is also a reason why there are sincere believers in God who support apparently contradictory doctrines or beliefs. Eventually as a person grows by eating His flesh and drinking of His blood he will have new revelations quickened to him (if not to others) by the Holy Spirit within him. This is the decreasing and increasing of which the Baptist spoke [John 3:30].

I'm not sure a parable qualifies as an unknown tongue. Maybe, perhaps. But not understanding the
moral of a story seems different from not understanding the language it was spoken in.

A language is simply a means of communication. Una lengua es nada más que un medio de comunicar. Eine Sprache ist nicht mehr als ein Weg um zu mitteilen.

We can learn foreign languages, but God alone can teach us the meaning of His Word by the quickening [bringing to Life] of the Holy Spirit. A dedicated atheist may read the Bible from cover to cover and not understand even the barest essential of God's message to men because his purpose and attitude were wrong.

 

[Bendito]

When I was first saved, my Lady, who had been a Christian for years, told me...When you get saved you get all of the Holy Spirit....When you get the baptism of the Holy Spirit is when He gets all of you....I still believe that. We are basically powerless in the Spirit until we totally surrender to our God and do things His way...Walking in Love, obedience, forsaking all but Him.