Hell and Christianity

[HAllyson]

Do all Christians believe in hell? Do ideas about hell vary; are those ideas based upon scripture or speculation? Do all Christians understand how to escape eternal hell? Is it healthy to have a fear of hell; or more precisely, the one who has the power to destroy the soul in hell? (I think it is this fear, the Fear of the LORD, that compels us to find ways to please God, were it possible).

Hell

Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Luke 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Matt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Amos 9:2 Though they dig into hell, thence shall mine hand take them; though they climb up to heaven, thence will I bring them down:

Isaiah 28:18 ¶ And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

Hell is Hot as Fire

Matthew 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

“lake of fire” 4x

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

“hell” + “fire” (8 verses)

Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Hell is Low/Deep

Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Job 11:8 It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?

Psalms 55:15 Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.

Psalms 86:13 For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

Proverbs 5:5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.

Proverbs 7:27 Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.

Proverbs 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

Proverbs 9:18 But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.

Proverbs 15:24 The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.

Isaiah 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Ezekiel 31:16 I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth.

Ezekiel 31:17 They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.

Ezekiel 32:27 And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.

Matthew 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

Luke 10:15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Hell is eternal

Proverbs 27:20 Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.

Isaiah 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.


Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


Thankfully, by God's amazing grace, our repentance of sins, and faith in Christ Jesus saves us from this eternal damnation!


Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Luke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Luke 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 3:19 ¶ Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Acts 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.

Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

 

[Chad]

Yes, hell is real. Fire, brimstone, eternal separation from GOD.

Unfortunately there are ample out there that don't believe in hell being eternal. It's quite unreal since it's all over the Scripture. Even some of the most well respected, notable preachers and evangelists preach an eternal hell.

Some relevant threads on this topic for the audience viewing this thread

Rejecting God Because of Hell Is Illogical
How Can I Not Go To Hell?
A loving God would never send anyone to hell
How is Hell a fair punishment for sin?
Eternal Hell

 

[Christ4Ever]

I think it is this fear, the Fear of the LORD, that compels us to find ways to please God, were it possible

Only one part I would rephrase. "...were it possible" as it pertains to pleasing God. With some this might be the case as you have stated. That fear compels some to find ways to please God. Yet, there are other ways that this may done. It is possible!

Here are some of many scriptures verses showing that God can be pleased by us. Some are; our walk; uprightness, broken, contrite heart, song, thanksgiving, doing good, sharing. Of cause these things are not about keeping us out of hell. For that is only through Christ Jesus. However, we can, believing, do things that are pleasing to Him and we should endeavor to do so!

Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God; 1 Thessalonians 4:1

"I know also, my God, that You test the heart and have pleasure in uprightness. As for me, in the uprightness of my heart I have willingly offered all these [things]; and now with joy I have seen Your people, who are present here to offer willingly to You. 1 Chronicles 29:17

For You do not desire sacrifice, or else I would give [it]; You do not delight in burnt offering. 17 The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit, A broken and a contrite heart--These, O God, You will not despise. Psalm 51:16-17

I will praise the name of God with a song, And will magnify Him with thanksgiving. 31 [This] also shall please the LORD better than an ox [or] bull, Which has horns and hooves. Psalm 69:30-31

Those who are of a perverse heart [are] an abomination to the LORD, But [the] blameless in their ways [are] His delight. Proverbs 11:20

But without faith [it is] impossible to please [Him], for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and [that] He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. Hebrews 11:6

Indeed I have all and abound. I am full, having received from Epaphroditus the things [sent] from you, a sweet-smelling aroma, an acceptable sacrifice, well pleasing to God. Philippians 4:18

But do not forget to do good and to share, for with such sacrifices God is well pleased. Hebrews 13:16

It is a good thing to remember that there is a hell. A good kick of reality can be beneficial!
Thanks for the post Allyson.
YBIC
C4E
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[HAllyson]

"...were it possible"

Thank you much for the feedback! I suppose I often forget that I, being as wretched as I feel that I am, could somehow please God. I can never please God they way his Son did, but I think the point I aim toward making is that trying is very important. Thank you again for reminding me that there are indeed ways to please God, and he is a rewarder of them that seek him: (This will be a great in-depth study for me)!

God bless!

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

 

[Dovegiven]

Do all Christians believe in hell? Do ideas about hell vary; are those ideas based upon scripture or speculation? Do all Christians understand how to escape eternal hell? Is it healthy to have a fear of hell; or more precisely, the one who has the power to destroy the soul in hell? (I think it is this fear, the Fear of the LORD, that compels us to find ways to please God, were it possible).[/QUOTE]

All that matters is what the Bible says about Hell, regardless of what some Christians think about it. God has made it very clear throughout the scriptures what pleases God, so there ought not be any "searches" for ways to please him. It's very possible to please God frequently, daily even. Just do what he has already prescribed.

 

[KingJ]

Do all Christians believe in hell? Do ideas about hell vary; are those ideas based upon scripture or speculation? Do all Christians understand how to escape eternal hell? Is it healthy to have a fear of hell; or more precisely, the one who has the power to destroy the soul in hell? (I think it is this fear, the Fear of the LORD, that compels us to find ways to please God, were it possible).

I don't have a problem with hell. But I do have a real problem with what people expect in hell.

There needs to be a hell. Since many hate God and cannot be with Him. It is literally as simple as that. People hate God. The devil has been sinning from the beginning. He wants to hate God. He does not ever want to repent and serve anyone but himself.

But what exactly happens there? I will cut to the chase. I disagree with any idea that God will torture anyone there. There is no example in the entire bible of God torturing His enemy yet so many assume it is en route to those that go to hell. God speaks of hell from His vantage point. He says someone in sin is currently in death. Has no peace. Well that person in sin will disagree. He is living it up. God is not lying. God just grasps what that person in sin does not.

God tells us to love our enemies because He hates His? When we understand that God loves His enemies but just can't be with them. We can better understand what exactly awaits them. We all know of the Geneva convention. I propose that if we can treat our enemies that hate us so well, God can do better.

When we imagine God torturing people and angels... how exactly would God be better then the devil? We must all remember that after WW2 the Germans ran to the West because they were afraid of the Russians. Now are we to equate our God with the Russians over the West? (Please no Godwins law).

 

[B-A-C]

I doesn't have nearly as much to do with hating God, as it does with not accepting Jesus as your savior.
I know a lot of people who say they don't hate God. They just don't believe in Jesus.

Does God punish?
God punished Cain in Genesis 4:11-13;
God punishes those who sin Exod 32:32-35;
God punishes certain sin up to seven times. Lev 26:21;
There are over 100 verses similar to these.
Prov 15:10; Isa 13:1;; Isa 24:21; Isa 26:21; Jer 6:15; Jer 9:9; etc...

How long does He punish?
David says the punishment of those who hate God would be forever. Psalms 81:15;
Jude 1:25; says the black darkness has been reserved "forever" for those who turn the grace of God into a license to sin.
(That would seem to include about a dozen or so here on TJ).
Those who receive the mark of the beast, will be tormented forever and ever... Rev 14:11;
Satan, the beast, and the false prophet of the beast, will be tormented forever and ever... Rev 20:10;
Matt 3:12; says the fire is "unquenchable" (unable to be put out).
Matt 13:42; and Matt 13:50; say there will be "gnashing of teeth and weeping" there.
Matt 18:8; says there is an "eternal fire".
When Jesus separates the sheep and the goats... the goats go into the "eternal" fire.
Mark 9:44; Mark 9:46; and Mark 9:48; says their soul does not die, and the fire is not quenched.
Jude 1:7; says the angels who rebelled against God are exhibited as an example... undergoing the punishment
of "eternal fire". These could be the angels that rebelled with Satan before the garden of Eden, or it
could be those "who went after strange flesh" in Gen 6:2; when angels had relations with human women.
Either way, it was at least 3,000 years before Jude was written, that's a long time to be punished.

It seems there are over a dozen verses that say you will burn forever.
If there is no punishment for not repenting and believing in Jesus.. then why bother?
If it's just momentary, barely painful at all, then why should anyone get saved?

Why does the lake of fire need to burn forever if all unbelievers are annihilated instantly?
Why in Luke 16:24-25; isn't the rich man annihilated instantly? Why is he in torment?

When we imagine God torturing people and angels... how exactly would God be better then the devil?

Do you think Satan can torture anyone without God's permission? Did God torture Job without permission?
Did God allow His own Son to be tortured?

Satan wants to punish us for trying to be Godly and righteous and believing in Jesus.
God punishes the evil, wicked, ungodly and those who refuse to believe in Jesus.

 

[KingJ]

1. I doesn't have nearly as much to do with hating God, as it does with not accepting Jesus as your savior.
I know a lot of people who say they don't hate God. They just don't believe in Jesus.

2. Do you think Satan can torture anyone without God's permission? Did God torture Job without permission?
Did God allow His own Son to be tortured?

3. Satan wants to punish us for trying to be Godly and righteous and believing in Jesus.
God punishes the evil, wicked, ungodly and those who refuse to believe in Jesus.

1. If you hate God you will not accept Jesus. Hating God is loving what He hates. Genuine love is to hate what He hates Rom 12:9. Nobody who loves what He loves and hates what He hates will reject Jesus / be in hell James 4:8, James 1:27.

2. We have to analyze every instance. Job was not God's enemy. Job was tortured, no doubt. But God knew Job was His. His to be tested and trialed. Job was not an enemy receiving a punishment. Jesus was definitely tortured. God definitely gave us and the devil power to do so. Jesus was a lamb to the slaughter. 100% under our evil will to do with as we pleased. This however has absolutely nothing to do with how God treats His enemy.

God's enemies are destroyed properly. No brazen bulls. No days and weeks of suffering. The worst mud a god basher can sling at God is perhaps Noah's flood (drowning), Sodom and the plagues on the Egyptians. Drowning is bad, but not close to a brazen bull / what people imagine hell will be like. Sodom, if you read the verses on its destruction you will see that when they looked at the city they saw the fire was very high and the heat intense. IE God destroyed them pretty instantly / poperly. No, slow death by fire. Then the plagues was merely warnings at increasing levels of severity. Even the seventh trumpets en route to those in the tribulation. If we look at context it is much in line with the plagues on the Egyptians. Sores on only those who have the mark of the beast. It is not God torturing His enemy. It is God warning mankind. The warning is that time is running out and they must get their act together. We have to see things for what they are. Those sores are perhaps the strongest argument for God torturing His enemy now that I think about it . But we have to see it for what it is. Signs and warnings. The Egyptians brought the plagues upon themselves and saw the increasing levels of severity from God. It was not a case of God killed their firstborns from the onset. Or God had them all thrown into brazen bulls. Not ever did God ever instruct the Israelites to do anything of the sort. God is not barbaric.

3. God punishes. Agreed. But His punishment is not ever torture. Can any Christian truly picture God spending time inventing torture machines? As Dante's inferno suggests? People don't refuse to believe in Jesus they choose to hate what is good and love what is evil. That love for what is evil is what equates to rejection of Jesus John 3:19 and Psalm 51:17.

Satan wants us all to be tortured. Satan's hell will be many preachers view of hell. God's hell will be better then the Geneva convention treatment of enemies.

 

[KingJ]

1 John 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Many conveniently forget this verse when teaching God will burn people alive for all eternity. I like how it says ''at all''. The writer really does want to ensure that we not get this truth wrong.

 

[B-A-C]

Using punishment does not make you "darkness".
Heb 10:29; 2 Pet 2:9; Heb 12:7-9;

If a father punishes his child, does that make him darkness? (Some liberals would say yes).
There is a fine line between discipline and torture.
If you ask the teenager who is barred from the internet and their cell phone for a week,
they would tell you that is torture.

What about Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:1-6; ? Were they God's friends or enemies?
How about Herod in Acts 12:23; ? friend or enemy?

How about the beast and Satan? Friend or enemy? Rev 20:10;
Rejecting salvation has eternal consequences.

Those who practice Judaism would say they love God. Are they saved?
Those who practice Islam would say they love God, are they saved?

Somehow the world today equates punishment with being evil. Heb 10:31;
Punishment is not evil... we deserve it. Jesus took it for us... but He didn't take it for those
who reject Him.

 

[Dave M]

I don't have a problem with hell. But I do have a real problem with what people expect in hell.



But what exactly happens there? I will cut to the chase. I disagree with any idea that God will torture anyone there. There is no example in the entire bible of God torturing His enemy yet so many assume it is en route to those that go to hell.

I would say that you may have missed this



What would you call Luke 16;
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’


you right in a way GOd does not torture them, but they are tortured in hell or did I mis read what you are saying??

 

[KingJ]

I would say that you may have missed this



What would you call Luke 16;
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’


you right in a way GOd does not torture them, but they are tortured in hell or did I mis read what you are saying??

If you are going to focus closely on the fire and agony. Focus also on the fact that he is talking to Abraham. Understand then that if he can talk to Abraham he can talk to God and ...one-day perhaps even you and I. None of those in AB were reigning with Christ at the time. That is what I imagine the reason being for him being unable to talk to Lazarus.

Now there are things to consider in addition to this verse. 1. Us and our ability to judge and discern matters now and even more so in heaven. 2. Rom 2:6, 3. God's vantage point, 4. God's nature as shown throughout scripture and 5. Communication between God, the devil and the demons.

1. One-day in heaven would you permit / be happy with God if you saw someone suffering unreasonably for an hour? For a day? Let alone eternity. Now if you had a gripe with this do think God will not listen? Are we going to imagine God brainwashing us in heaven? Our current minds will be enhanced in heaven. We will no longer see through a glass darkly. Meaning if we currently on any level disagree with what a sane mind would judge as fair punishment...this will only be worse for us in heaven. Now if we can discern this how much more God who gave us our minds? My argument is that fire and agony will be acceptable then as it is now. The only way it is acceptable now is if it is not literal fire. Rather torment from greater spiritual awareness. Like a rapist grasping the evil of his actions.

2. Rom 2:6 and many more such scriptures on fair punishment make a strong argument for temporary suffering. If even there will be any real suffering. Now you and I can discern the pain of burning someone alive. OT we would do that to some sorcerers. But they would be burnt instantly. No brazen bulls. Suddenly on eternity when we are able to judge even better it is ok to burn someone alive for eternity....?

3. God describes things from His vantage point. When Adam and Eve sinned they chose death, pain and suffering. Was / is the earth really that bad? A sinners is dead in his trespasses. Does a sinner feel dead? Does a sinner care about not having peace? Hence an argument can be made that the rich man was only aware of his suffering when he knew and compared his position to Lazarus's.

4. God has always been the epitome of good. Psalm 136:1. We give thanks to God because He is good. Repeat that scripture a million times. If God cannot and does not treat His enemy on par or better then the Geneva convention treatment of enemies...then He is not good. Then we should not give thanks or really care about serving Him. I am not interested in serving an evil God. Now I don't have to worry on this. Because I know that there is no darkness whatsoever in my God. It is false preachers that need to preach eternal cruelty. There is no evidence in the entire bible of God torturing His enemy. You can show me ONE verse on potential suffering. I can show a million on fair treatment.

5. Look properly at Jesus casting the demons into swine. Did the demons say they hate God for the unfair treatment coming? Do you think Jesus would honor their request to be cast into pigs (when He loves pigs) if He hated them and knew / wanted them to be in hell right now suffering? Another way to see it. Would Nero honor a request from a Christian? Then Jesus speaking to the devil. We know the devil hated Jesus but did Jesus show ANY sign of hatred for the devil. The kind of hatred you imagine being able to dish out terrible eternal torture? No. Jesus spoke to the devil politely. Gave him the time of day on not one but three occasions. I would expect Jesus to say, ''eternal torture is awaiting you, you sick son pf perdition''. Nope. Just... hi. Don't tempt God. Ok, that's enough, get behind me now satan. Even the manner in which God communicates with satan with Job. Or the manner in which he was removed from heaven. But I don't want to go into that here.

I will end with the fact that we are told to love our enemies. Loving our enemies = separation + Geneva convention treatment. If we imagine God doing worse then what we would do / sorry '''should'' do. Then God is going to be removing some peoples minds. IE brainwashing them. IE hiding the truth. IE making us dumb. Now all these would make God evil. God is not evil. God is an open book. God has got nothing to hide. Punishment en route to the wicked, we will agree with. Because it is what we would do to them. Now I would NOT in a million years do anything cruel. That would make me no better then them.

 

[KingJ]

1. Using punishment does not make you "darkness".
Heb 10:29; 2 Pet 2:9; Heb 12:7-9;

2. If a father punishes his child, does that make him darkness? (Some liberals would say yes).

3. There is a fine line between discipline and torture.

4. If you ask the teenager who is barred from the internet and their cell phone for a week,
they would tell you that is torture.

5. What about Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5:1-6; ? Were they God's friends or enemies?

6. How about Herod in Acts 12:23; ? friend or enemy?
How about the beast and Satan? Friend or enemy? Rev 20:10;
Rejecting salvation has eternal consequences.

7. Those who practice Judaism would say they love God. Are they saved?
Those who practice Islam would say they love God, are they saved?

8. Somehow the world today equates punishment with being evil. Heb 10:31;
Punishment is not evil... we deserve it. Jesus took it for us... but He didn't take it for those
who reject Him.

1. Agreed. Punishment is eternal separation. Torture however would make you 'darkness'.

2. Not if it is fair.

3. No there is not. Punishment is putting Saddam Hussein in prison for his crimes and perhaps even the death penalty. Torture is....well I won't go into detail. It is not appropriate.

4. I can agree with that. From his vantage point he will say torture. From ours we will say punishment and a fair one at that. Now eternal suffering in fire...

5. Not sure of the relevance. Other then that they were killed instantly.

6. Yes agreed. But rejecting salvation is not saying 'I reject Jesus'.

7. Any truly devout God-fearing person is drawing near to God and Jesus will find them James 4:8 / they will have an encounter with Jesus (nobody can believe Jesus is Lord except the Holy Spirit reveal it to them 1 Cor 12:3). These scriptures could not be clearer James 1:27, Rom 12:9, Psalm 51:17.

8. Punishment of banishment, we are all fine with. As Jesus says the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The Amorites were not taken out because their sin was not full measure Gen 15:16. God only sends those to hell who would never from free will choose to serve Him. IE they hate Him full measure. They love what is evil more then they will ever hate it. Punishment of suffering.....entirely different story.

 

[amadeus2]

Thank you much for the feedback! I suppose I often forget that I, being as wretched as I feel that I am, could somehow please God. I can never please God they way his Son did, but I think the point I aim toward making is that trying is very important. Thank you again for reminding me that there are indeed ways to please God, and he is a rewarder of them that seek him: (This will be a great in-depth study for me)!

God bless!

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Yes, trying is very important. We cannot do it by our efforts, but I believe that God will add to us whatever is necessary if we are really sincerely trying to please Him. If, on the other hand, we don't try to please God we will, I believe, lose out with God.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

I don't have a problem with hell. But I do have a real problem with what people expect in hell.

There needs to be a hell. Since many hate God and cannot be with Him. It is literally as simple as that. People hate God. The devil has been sinning from the beginning. He wants to hate God. He does not ever want to repent and serve anyone but himself.

But what exactly happens there? I will cut to the chase. I disagree with any idea that God will torture anyone there. There is no example in the entire bible of God torturing His enemy yet so many assume it is en route to those that go to hell. God speaks of hell from His vantage point. He says someone in sin is currently in death. Has no peace. Well that person in sin will disagree. He is living it up. God is not lying. God just grasps what that person in sin does not.

God tells us to love our enemies because He hates His? When we understand that God loves His enemies but just can't be with them. We can better understand what exactly awaits them. We all know of the Geneva convention. I propose that if we can treat our enemies that hate us so well, God can do better.

When we imagine God torturing people and angels... how exactly would God be better then the devil? We must all remember that after WW2 the Germans ran to the West because they were afraid of the Russians. Now are we to equate our God with the Russians over the West? (Please no Godwins law).

Kj Blessings to you !!
You said The devil has been sinning from the beginning. He wants to hate God. He does not ever want to repent and serve anyone but himself.

The devil does not wantto hate God Brother Kj he does HATE God and that is why he works hard to destroy Gods creation in which God loves dearly.
Bro it is not even about the devil does not ever want to repent - it is IMPOSSIBLE for the devil to do so. There is no redeption for the devil EVER or his fallen foes.

KJ said God tells us to love our enemies because He hates His? When we understand that God loves His enemies but just can't be with them. We can better understand what exactly awaits them. We all know of the Geneva convention. I propose that if we can treat our enemies that hate us so well, God can do better.

Kj once again you are not grasping this "love your enemies" - Howmany times must it be said unto you before you will go seek and study and find this out for your self.
God is talking "about PEOPLE" HERE AS OUR ENEMIES not created fallen spirit beings.
Look at ..........Ephesians 6:12 and there is somuch more as well -For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. That high places being the second heavens bro or the spiritual realm. These are our enemies.

As to the rest of this section above - there you go again using and comparing spiritual matters with human reasoning and understanding. You will NOT ever gain any true spiritual understanding that way Bro nor will you ever begin to grasp Gods word to it's fullness.

Look bro is is so simple you need help to not understand this.
God created HELL for the devil and the angels that follwed him.
Scripture tells us we are all born into sin thanks to the actions of the first adam.
Scripture tells us God not only gives us the choice to choose His way or any other way and what we will have when we choose either of them.

Scripture tells us the only way to the Father is through Jesus ( being born again )

So we choose to our destination bro - we choose Heaven or Hell NOT GOD. God is not punishing any one.
Look Bro if God says to only play with tinker toys and dont play with guns....God explains what will happen. You then choose the gun and kill 15 people - is that Gods fault ? NO.....does this make God evil? NO
Then God telling you what hell is really likie and not only making you away to avoid hell and even explains step by step how to do this - then how could it ever be God being evil or punishing any one.

Gods will is that all men be saved.
KJ taking understanding with human thinking as you say common sense will not get you any more understanding then any un-saved person reading the bible. Why can't you understand this ?

Have a wonderful week end Brother KJ
God Bless
James W

 

[KingJ]

1. Kj once again you are not grasping this "love your enemies" - Howmany times must it be said unto you before you will go seek and study and find this out for your self.
God is talking "about PEOPLE" HERE AS OUR ENEMIES not created fallen spirit beings.

2. As to the rest of this section above - there you go again using and comparing spiritual matters with human reasoning and understanding. You will NOT ever gain any true spiritual understanding that way Bro nor will you ever begin to grasp Gods word to it's fullness. KJ taking understanding with human thinking as you say common sense will not get you any more understanding then any un-saved person reading the bible. Why can't you understand this ?

3. So we choose to our destination bro - we choose Heaven or Hell NOT GOD. God is not punishing any one.
Look Bro if God says to only play with tinker toys and dont play with guns....God explains what will happen. You then choose the gun and kill 15 people - is that Gods fault ? NO.....does this make God evil? NO
Then God telling you what hell is really likie and not only making you away to avoid hell and even explains step by step how to do this - then how could it ever be God being evil or punishing any one.

Gods will is that all men be saved.

1. God is impassible, He doesn't hate. We word it as He hates, but correct context when considering His position is that He detests. Or as in the case of Esau, simply not chosen.

You believe God hates the devil like the devil hates God? God hates Esau like the devil hates you and I? Please try grasp the full concept of the word ''hate''. It is such a harsh word that implies one is capable of all and any evil. God would not have made the devil if He hated him. God loves the devil, but hates his sin. As is the case with all of his creation. It is not just a human thing. It is in God's nature to be good. There is no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

2. I believe you are half correct. You need to understand that the bible is written in human vernacular. When God says ''give thanks because I am good'', He expects a human with a working brain to be able to grasp and hold Him to that. The bible is not gibberish. The bible is not written in a spiritual language. Then of course there is lateral thought and hermeneutics. Then, for us Christians, the Holy Spirits help and rhema's.

3. I agree we choose hell. You say God is not punishing anyone. But how is hell not 'punishment of banishment'?

I think I agree with you. Are you saying that hell is bad because of torment we have brought upon ourselves and nothing from God's doing?

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

1. God is impassible, He doesn't hate. We word it as He hates, but correct context when considering His position is that He detests. Or as in the case of Esau, simply not chosen.

You believe God hates the devil like the devil hates God? God hates Esau like the devil hates you and I? Please try grasp the full concept of the word ''hate''. It is such a harsh word that implies one is capable of all and any evil. God would not have made the devil if He hated him. God loves the devil, but hates his sin. As is the case with all of his creation. It is not just a human thing. It is in God's nature to be good. There is no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

2. I believe you are half correct. You need to understand that the bible is written in human vernacular. When God says ''give thanks because I am good'', He expects a human with a working brain to be able to grasp and hold Him to that. The bible is not gibberish. The bible is not written in a spiritual language. Then of course there is lateral thought and hermeneutics. Then, for us Christians, the Holy Spirits help and rhema's.

3. I agree we choose hell. You say God is not punishing anyone. But how is hell not 'punishment of banishment'?

I think I agree with you. Are you saying that hell is bad because of torment we have brought upon ourselves and nothing from God's doing?

Brother KJ I will say it once again and pray that you begin to understand truth in this.
1.....God hates sin and evil

2....The bible or the written word of God is written in such a way that we need spiritual insight to understand the depth of Gods Words or ways. You dont get this just because you are born again. No sir you need to draw close to God daily and get His word in you daily and here is the Big One For You - be willing to change the way you think and do things unto Gods ways.

3....God created hell for the devil and his angels.............understand the word CREATED..........this involves where it is - what happens in hell - and what will happen to hell
So there you go Hell and it's ways - now then if a person rejects Gods saving grace and dies the second death ( seperation from God ) then he or she too will spend eternity in HELL with the devil and the angels that stayed with the devil - now grasp this please - THEY TOO WILL SUFFER just as the devil and those angels of his will.

God created hell for the devil and his angels - put into being what happens in hell - nothing changes this.
God created hell for the devil and his angels and NOT PEOPLE - BUT if people refuse His grace and refuse to surrender unto Him - then they TOO WILL JOIN THE DEVIL......

Please stop this insanity that God does not hate the devil or evil or sin. Stop this insanity that when God says love your enemies that he is talking about the devil and how Him and Jesus treated the devil politly....That is totally far fetched.

Blessings unto you brother Kj and I pray you have a wonderful day.
James W

 

[B-A-C]

I am not saying @KingJ is this way, I have nothing to base that on.

But it seems today's society thinks punishment is evil.
The world was a lot different when I was a child.
Parents spanked children. Teachers spanked children. Children were punished.
Criminals were punished. The majority of states at that time had a death penalty for certain crimes.

Kids didn't die from spankings, they learned discipline and respect for authority.
Something that is severely lacking in today's society.
Children didn't hate their parents for disciplining them (oh, they might for a day or so, but never for a long period)
In fact, many children, thanked their parents for disciplining them later in life.
Better a spanking, or being confined to my room for a day or two than to spend a life-time in prison.

Prov 13:24; He who withholds his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him diligently.
Prov 22:15; Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; The rod of discipline will remove it far from him.
Prov 23:13; Do not hold back discipline from from the child, Although you strike him with the rod, he will not die.
Prov 23:14; You shall strike him with the rod And rescue his soul from Sheol.
Prov 29:15; The rod and reproof give wisdom, But a child who gets his own way brings shame to his mother.

There are over 50 scriptures in the Bible that talk about the "rod of God" bringing discipline, wrath and affliction
to those disobeying God.

1 Cor 11:32; Eph 6:4;

Heb 12:4; You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;
Heb 12:5; and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,

“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
Nor faint when you are reproved by Him;
Heb 12:6; For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines, And He scourges every son whom He receives.”
Heb 12:7; It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
Heb 12:8; But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
Heb 12:9; Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10; For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness.
Heb 12:11; All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

These are sayings and words that can get people arrested these days.
Parents have had their power to raise children effectively taken away. Counselors, psychiatrists, and medical drugs
have become the replacement for discipline. Parents have become little more than providers and entertainment
for their children in many cases.

 

[KingJ]

A controlled hiding from a calm / sane / loving parent is not physical abuse.

Physical abuse of your kids is evil.

Physical abuse of your neighbors kids (devils children), no matter how rebellious they are, is evil.

God is not evil.

 

[Hekuran]

And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and cast it from you; it is better for you to enter into life one-eyed, than having two eyes to be cast into the Gehenna ... Matthew 18:9

In many of places translated fire of hell, the original word is the fire of Gehenna. Gehenna was the dump outside Jerusalem where the waste was burned. So it may be that the mental picture we should have when talking about hell is not a fiery torture chamber, but being thrown out with the garbage.

I'm not well-informed enough to make a big statement about this - but when I read through the passages that speak of hell fire with this kind of mental picture, they make sense.

Judgement is real, but we should not let ourselves be too much influenced by the gruesome imagination of the mediaeval church.