Hi 'WaterRock'
Ummm, what's your own thought-world concerning the term 'spiritual temple'?
If I could know that first, I might be better able to give response to the question you've posed.
Believe it or not
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Ummm, what's your own thought-world concerning the term 'spiritual temple'?
If I could know that first, I might be better able to give response to the question you've posed.
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You know enough to support what your experiences are with scripture. So plain you might describe yourself as being, but, I do believe you are far more than that. :thumbsup:
This of cause doesn't even begin to take into account that as a Believer you are specially chosen, Child of the Most High! It would be like saying Jesus was just a rabbi, and the Apostles were just plain everyday folks as well
Yes, they enjoyed life, fellowship, God's Grace, but plain is not a word I would ever describe a citizen in the Heavenly Kingdom of God. Also, you know one does not have to be a Bible Scholar to be a theologian. That we can reason together about God, His Holy Word fits the bill of theologian quite nicely.
Though as you well know, at times we have to pigeonwhole what is communicated. It has more to do with the world we live in and the roaring lion seeking whom to devourer. Caution, could also be a theme of the NT.
A multitude of occurrences with Godly experiences arrive on many a door step, whether sought out or not. All part of growing in Him. So if we can rejoice at all times that is awesome. If we can't. We need to learn to.
Or at the very least be able to teach, pray, support, cry if need be with those who've yet to grow to a point where the joys are all we see.YBIC
C4E
Hi! 'Christ4Life'You know enough to support what your experiences are with scripture. So plain you might describe yourself as being, but, I do believe you are far more than that. :thumbsup:
This of cause doesn't even begin to take into account that as a Believer you are specially chosen, Child of the Most High! It would be like saying Jesus was just a rabbi, and the Apostles were just plain everyday folks as well
Also, you know one does not have to be a Bible Scholar to be a theologian. That we can reason together about God, His Holy Word fits the bill of theologian quite nicely.
Though as you well know, at times we have to pigeonwhole what is communicated. It has more to do with the world we live in and the roaring lion seeking whom to devourer. Caution, could also be a theme of the NT.
A multitude of occurrences with Godly experiences arrive on many a door step, whether sought out or not. All part of growing in Him. So if we can rejoice at all times that is awesome. If we can't. We need to learn to.
YBIC
C4E
Thanks for comments.
Ummm, my prior response was attempting to address the question asked of me: "Do you believe in the "Kingdom Now" or a similar theology? " To be perfectly honest, I don't ever recall even having heard/read about this particular 'label' and/or 'category' before.
Frankly, I loathe labels. Categorical labeling is oftentimes a tool that some Christians use to negotiate through a complexity of circumstances which they themselves are grappling to perceive. Like so many of our social interactions, labeling contributes to some of the deepest problems that Christians are increasingly facing today. In my opinion, it's all so much trivia and worthless banter to paste labels or to categorize a particular thought-world.
For instance, English and Russian speakers were once asked to distinguish between two very similar but subtly different shades of blue. In English, we have a single word for the color blue, but Russians divide the spectrum of blue into lighter blues, ('goluboy'), and darker blues, ('siniy'). Where we English speakers use a single label for the color, they use two different labels. When the two shades of blue straddled the 'goluboy'/'siniy' divide, the Russian speakers were much quicker to distinguish between them, because they had readily available labels for the two colors that the English speakers lumped together as "blue."
I personally don't find any compelling need for Christians to insist on labels. I'm jus' happy and content to be known as a child of the Living God.
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It's actually Christ4Ever not Life, but I like that also, but Christ4Life might think you're talking to them
My father who didn't even make it to the 6th grade, was Puerto Rican and had an ear for languages. He could speak fluently, German, French, Greek, Italian, Yiddish, and of cause Spanish. Yet he said that English was the most difficult to learn. The reason he said, was because it made no sense. :laugh: Interesting is seeing the differences in the one English word of "love". While in the Greek has finer nuances providing for a greater clarity. Similar to your story on the color blue. Agápē, érōs, philía, and storgē. Conveying so much more in their use in the Greek, but little help in the English.
Communication requires the need to define what is being talked about. Labeling allows for communicating a deep matter without having to explain the subject in any greater detail since the label is understood by both parties. In our case, you do not know the theological term I used so we're at an impasse moving forward. At least to that particular category of thought.
You've caught my interest in your attempt in not labeling and/or categorizing things. The problem I see is that the Bible is full of them. Just saying I believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior, automatically creates an alternative category, that is those who do not believe in Jesus Christ as their Saviors. So....labels of "believer" and "non-believer" have been created. Not altogether useless, and one I hope you don't loathe. :whistle
Knowing someone is an unbeliever then allows the communication to move from that point forward or backwards since the label has created the starting point of the discussion. The same would be the case if they were a believer. Labels provide a point of reference, which I pray people use to further understand something within the Biblical context. With even more prayer, that they are able to convey their communication in a loving manner.
Christians using labels to me isn't the problem. It's usually what the label signifies or better yet the behavior it's identified or associated to it that creates the issues. I can see why you loathe them, yet it should still not take away from their importance or usefulness in communicating with others. Constructing labels and assigning them doesn't necessarily have to make the use of them in conversation negative, positive, or even limiting. Since it's in the Biblical setting that is being talked about here. It really has to do with understanding scripture and being able to communicate in "Love" the point one is trying to make. That is why when I first heard a label placed on the bible as "A letter of love." I kind of liked it. In total context, it communicated it perfectly. Others may not like that label, but hey. they can go out and buy their own label maker (humor) If I had to attempt to label the Bible the only thing I could come up with would be "WOW', and who would understand that? Kinda of what I feel like in trying to describe "God's Heavenly Kingdom".
Nice talking to ya.
YBIC
C4E
My father who didn't even make it to the 6th grade, was Puerto Rican and had an ear for languages. He could speak fluently, German, French, Greek, Italian, Yiddish, and of cause Spanish. Yet he said that English was the most difficult to learn. The reason he said, was because it made no sense. :laugh: Interesting is seeing the differences in the one English word of "love". While in the Greek has finer nuances providing for a greater clarity. Similar to your story on the color blue. Agápē, érōs, philía, and storgē. Conveying so much more in their use in the Greek, but little help in the English.
Communication requires the need to define what is being talked about. Labeling allows for communicating a deep matter without having to explain the subject in any greater detail since the label is understood by both parties. In our case, you do not know the theological term I used so we're at an impasse moving forward. At least to that particular category of thought.
You've caught my interest in your attempt in not labeling and/or categorizing things. The problem I see is that the Bible is full of them. Just saying I believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior, automatically creates an alternative category, that is those who do not believe in Jesus Christ as their Saviors. So....labels of "believer" and "non-believer" have been created. Not altogether useless, and one I hope you don't loathe. :whistle
Knowing someone is an unbeliever then allows the communication to move from that point forward or backwards since the label has created the starting point of the discussion. The same would be the case if they were a believer. Labels provide a point of reference, which I pray people use to further understand something within the Biblical context. With even more prayer, that they are able to convey their communication in a loving manner.
Christians using labels to me isn't the problem. It's usually what the label signifies or better yet the behavior it's identified or associated to it that creates the issues. I can see why you loathe them, yet it should still not take away from their importance or usefulness in communicating with others. Constructing labels and assigning them doesn't necessarily have to make the use of them in conversation negative, positive, or even limiting. Since it's in the Biblical setting that is being talked about here. It really has to do with understanding scripture and being able to communicate in "Love" the point one is trying to make. That is why when I first heard a label placed on the bible as "A letter of love." I kind of liked it. In total context, it communicated it perfectly. Others may not like that label, but hey. they can go out and buy their own label maker (humor)
If I had to attempt to label the Bible the only thing I could come up with would be "WOW', and who would understand that? Kinda of what I feel like in trying to describe "God's Heavenly Kingdom". Nice talking to ya.
YBIC
C4E
Hi! 'Christ4EVER'It's actually Christ4Ever not Life, but I like that also, but Christ4Life might think you're talking to them
My father who didn't even make it to the 6th grade, was Puerto Rican and had an ear for languages. He could speak fluently, German, French, Greek, Italian, Yiddish, and of cause Spanish. Yet he said that English was the most difficult to learn. The reason he said, was because it made no sense. :laugh: Interesting is seeing the differences in the one English word of "love". While in the Greek has finer nuances providing for a greater clarity. Similar to your story on the color blue. Agápē, érōs, philía, and storgē. Conveying so much more in their use in the Greek, but little help in the English.
Communication requires the need to define what is being talked about. Labeling allows for communicating a deep matter without having to explain the subject in any greater detail since the label is understood by both parties. In our case, you do not know the theological term I used so we're at an impasse moving forward. At least to that particular category of thought.
You've caught my interest in your attempt in not labeling and/or categorizing things. The problem I see is that the Bible is full of them. Just saying I believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior, automatically creates an alternative category, that is those who do not believe in Jesus Christ as their Saviors. So....labels of "believer" and "non-believer" have been created. Not altogether useless, and one I hope you don't loathe. :whistle
Knowing someone is an unbeliever then allows the communication to move from that point forward or backwards since the label has created the starting point of the discussion. The same would be the case if they were a believer. Labels provide a point of reference, which I pray people use to further understand something within the Biblical context. With even more prayer, that they are able to convey their communication in a loving manner.
Christians using labels to me isn't the problem. It's usually what the label signifies or better yet the behavior it's identified or associated to it that creates the issues. I can see why you loathe them, yet it should still not take away from their importance or usefulness in communicating with others. Constructing labels and assigning them doesn't necessarily have to make the use of them in conversation negative, positive, or even limiting. Since it's in the Biblical setting that is being talked about here. It really has to do with understanding scripture and being able to communicate in "Love" the point one is trying to make. That is why when I first heard a label placed on the bible as "A letter of love." I kind of liked it. In total context, it communicated it perfectly. Others may not like that label, but hey. they can go out and buy their own label maker (humor)
Nice talking to ya.
YBIC
C4E
I very much appreciated your above Comment(s). Thank you!
By the way, you and the others who perform administrative duties within this 'XenForo' Software richly deserve both our gratitude and admiration for your efforts. I've been acquainted with computers since before the advent of Windows v3.1 what became known as the 'Internet' ... at least 35 years ago now ... from way-back-when BBS's were beginning to be launched and when my 'USR Robotics' dual-standard modem, (14.4 kbit/s) cost in excess of $1,200 . So, I certainly have first-hand knowledge about managing and maintaining an Online presence. I take my hat off and bow to you all for your dedication to the exceptionally worthy cause of propagating our Gospel.
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The hat off I will take, and I'm sure is appreciated by all, but you can give the bow to the one who makes all things possible! Who deserves all the praise and glory! God Almighty!!
Though I will agree with you on the worthy call. The work of Chad and many current and past Moderators over the years has been a blessing not only to me, but to many who call Jesus Christ Lord & Savior. Which has allowed Talk Jesus to become an Oasis of fellowship in the midst of a very dry world we currently live in.
Blessings Brother
YBIC
C4E
A prayer I have read I now share: Lord teach me to trust in you in my times of happiness and sorrow, in my struggles and triumphs. Lord, help me to have faith so I can walk on water and move mountains. I thank You for your faithfulness to those who seek You. Amen.
John saw heaven in revelation by a vision -a virtual tour so to speak, of the heavenly throne and later visions of future events of the end time which have not yet occurred .
Astronauts in the second heaven-space-no matter how far out they travel would never find heaven-it is invisible to us being a spiritual realm.
In John 14:3 Jesus is telling us we will be where he is-on earth-that is established by all other scripture relating to the Kingdom of God being on earth.
in Hebrews 11:13 we see that all the great patriarchs have died in faith, but have not received the promises.........."
They have not received the promises of eternal life yet. They are not in heaven.
Where in the Bible does it actually says " We will go to Heaven when we die ".
There are various verses that allude to this if misinterpreted but there are no verses that give us a precise and direct meaning that when we die we go to heaven.
What I mean by God is not trying to save the whole world now is that millions die yearly without even the knowledge of Christ.
All that He does not call now in this present age will have an opportunity for salvation in the future
Jesus and the apostles always compare death to sleep.
The idea that souls go to heaven at death apparently originated in pagan religions, not the bible.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God-so we are not living in the Kingdom now, not until we are spiritual beings. and that only happens after Jesus second coming and the resurrections from the dead in the future.
Ophel
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We are spiritual beings NOW.
If one doesn't understand the fact that we are created as tripartite creatures---body, soul and spirit---they will never come to grips with the fact that when the body dies (sleeps as the ancients put it), our body remains earthbound, but our soul (mind, will and emotions--the personality of the person) and his spirit, which we have no conscious knowledge of, goes directly to Jesus.
Paul talks about being absent in the body, yet present with the Lord and that is the kingpin of the truth concerning our forever presence with Jesus when we die. Jesus Himself prays to the Father saying in John 7:22-24: "“I have given them the glory you gave me, so they may be one as we are one. 23 I am in them and you are in me. May they experience such perfect unity that the world will know that you sent me and that you love them as much as you love me. 24 Father, I want these whom you have given me to be with me where I am. Then they can see all the glory you gave me because you loved me even before the world began!" Even Solon, the wise king himself, in ancient days spoke the truth when he said, "Yes, remember your Creator now while you are young, before the silver cord of life snaps and the golden bowl is broken. Don’t wait until the water jar is smashed at the spring and the pulley is broken at the well. 7 For then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:6-7)
There is NO TIME of separation from Jesus Christ for those who are in Christ. Death cannot separate us.
If one doesn't understand the fact that we are created as tripartite creatures---body, soul and spirit---they will never come to grips with the fact that when the body dies (sleeps as the ancients put it), our body remains earthbound, but our soul (mind, will and emotions--the personality of the person) and his spirit, which we have no conscious knowledge of, goes directly to Jesus.
Paul talks about being absent in the body, yet present with the Lord and that is the kingpin of the truth concerning our forever presence with Jesus when we die. Jesus Himself prays to the Father saying in John 7:22-24: "“I have given them the glory you gave me, so they may be one as we are one. 23 I am in them and you are in me. May they experience such perfect unity that the world will know that you sent me and that you love them as much as you love me. 24 Father, I want these whom you have given me to be with me where I am. Then they can see all the glory you gave me because you loved me even before the world began!" Even Solon, the wise king himself, in ancient days spoke the truth when he said, "Yes, remember your Creator now while you are young, before the silver cord of life snaps and the golden bowl is broken. Don’t wait until the water jar is smashed at the spring and the pulley is broken at the well. 7 For then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:6-7)
There is NO TIME of separation from Jesus Christ for those who are in Christ. Death cannot separate us.
Hi! 'JudgeNot'
While I'm agreement with most of your expressed points, I became more than a little baffled with your concluding comments.
Yes, it's indeed true that, (as you say), "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God". However, I'm sure that you're also aware that the substance of a human creature is much more than what is visible to the naked eye ... much more than what is visible. After all, you possess a soul and spirit too; and these both remain invisible.
As such, the substance of every human creature, (both the repentant and unrepentant), are simultaneously attached to both the natural world and spiritual world.
The visible properties of the human creature are attached to the physical world only and are not able to inherit/enter the invisible kingdom of God. But the invisible properties of the human creature, (soul and spirit), are attached to the spiritual world and therefore become eligible to inherit/enter the kingdom of God.
Did you notice that the verse does not read "Kingdom of 'HEAVEN'? The reason for that is because the 'Kingdom of Heaven' is a term which expresses the totality of the invisible world while the "Kingdom of God' expresses a particular environment of that invisible world.
By the way, I also found it rather remarkable that you neglected to include the latter portion your quoted verse within your comments: "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable [visible] inherit the imperishable [invisible]" . It's precisely the latter portion which would avails a more complete perspective.
A rhetorical question: What portion of you was transferred from the 'kingdom of darkness' to the 'kingdom of light'? Certainly not the flesh and blood properties of yourself ... correct? No, it was the invisible properties of yourself ,,, what the Bible names as your "inner man" and/or "inner being" which is comprised of a soul and spirit. And, a further rhetorical question: If your inner man now resides in the "kingdom of light", where is that kingdom? Of course, it's within the unseen spiritual world. Therefore, (aware of it or not), you dwell in two worlds or dimensions simultaneously. Notice the PAST TENSE of the verb here: "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
The bible speaks often of the resurrection of the dead. But what is the purpose then of the dead being raised if people go to heaven after death?
Psalms 6:5 says we have no relationship with God after death. And Psalms 115:17 reiterates it.
Our mind, our thoughts, our human spirit is unconscious-asleep as the bible refers to it.
Absent from the body, present with the Lord does not mention heaven
2 Tim 4:6-8 - Paul understood here that he would not receive his reward immediately at death. That would happen at the second coming of Christ.
We will not realize the passage of time from death to the resurrection-it will be like Paul says , in the twinkling of an eye. Instantaneously, even though a hundred years may have gone by.
Ophel
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The resurrection of the dead is the time set apart for them to receive the physical, yet glorified, imperishable bodies they will need to do the work of governing the nations of the world when Jesus returns as King. We will all require the same physical bodies that Jesus has. People in heaven now are there in only their spiritual form, but they will need flesh and bone to be able to function in the earthly Kingdom.
What you are gathering from your offered passages is incorrect. It is only talking about the dead physical body that can no longer, see, nor hear, nor speak, nor praise the Lord.
Yes, when Paul speaks about being absent from the body and present with the Lord, he is talking about the immediate transportation to heaven of our spirits. We will receive our heavenly home immediately upon vacating this flesh. Our spiritual rewards come at the Bema Seat of Christ, however, and that is another topic.
You are also incorrect about us receiving our rewards at Jesus' second coming, for it as that time that we will already have received our new bodies and our rewards, for we will be coming with Jesus, already judged and rewarded and ready to rule and reign with Him.
The allusion to the "twinkling of an eye" is only referring to the nanosecond of time it will take for us all---both dead and alive---to change from our physical flesh (or as in the case of the dead, from dust) to glorified when Jesus shouts for us to "Come!"
Hi! 'Ophel'
Because the truth about the resurrection of the dead is perhaps the most important pillar of our Christian faith, (1Cor 15:13-14), I'd like to further add to your most excellent thoughts which are expressed above:
The specific subject matter concerns those who share in the first resurrection, (Revelation 20:4-6). The first resurrection starts when man's life is restored on the new foundation of God; and, it's completed in the physical resurrection. Both our inner as well as our outer man is concerned in the resurrection of the dead; it is the restoration of soul, spirit and body. It's a process of renewal; beginning at repentance and regeneration and, for those who are in Christ, finishing with a physical return to life at the Lord's coming. The temple of God is complete when the Christian has been restored in soul, spirit and body, when he is completely filled with the Spirit of God.
Of course, the resurrection of the dead draws our attention to the fact that man lives forever and ever. The Bible teaches that man's visible life is transient, but his unseen life is eternal, (2Cor 4:18). Soul and spirit belong to the spiritual world and so make man's inner life indestructible.
While it's true that Ephesians 2:1 says that we were dead through our trespasses and sins, this does not mean that our inner man did not exist before. Instead, it means to say that our inner life was alienated from real life with our Creator; not functioning after His laws, a prey of evil powers. The verse also continues saying, "In which you once walked, following the course of this world, (which is ruled by the evil one). following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience". The inner man being dead means that he is under the power and sway of Satan's henchmen.
Death of the outward man is the separation of the inner man and the body. A dead body does not remain unchanged; it is subjected to the influences of negative and destructive forces. A person who is inwardly dead is subject to the destructive forces of hate, jealousy, lies, uncleanness, depression, etc. He functions after the law of powers of sin and death. In the body, death manifests itself in decomposition, a return to dust. On the other hand, life after the laws of God, life in righteousness, manifests itself in joy, peace, and strength in the inner man and health for the outward man.
Resurrection is the change from death into life, from darkness into light, deliverance from the power of Satan and return to God. In the case of the prodigal son resurrection started when he said: "I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.' His resurrection became a fact when the Father accepted him, put the best robe on him, and provided a ring on his hand and shoes on his feet. Then the Father said about his son: 'He was dead, and is alive again' ",(Luke 15:11-32). Jesus described the spiritual resurrection in these words: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes Him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live", (John 5:24-25).
When a Christian is baptized in water, he testifies that his old ways of thinking, his old man, is buried and that a new life has started which is nourished from the heavenly places. Many Christians think that a believer goes to heaven only after he dies. If so, how can his ways and citizenship be in heaven? How will he be able to fight and conquer in the heavenlies if he is not present there? It says: "And raised us up with him, and made us sit with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus", (Eph 2:6). He who is in Christ, that is, he who belongs to His spiritual body, (of which He is the Head), is in heaven, in the Kingdom of God, which is the light/good part of the Kingdom of heaven. In him our Lord's prayer is fulfilled: "Father, I desire that they also, whom Thou hast given me, may be with me where I am, to behold my glory", (John 17:24).
Our life there is through faith and we see with eyes that are opened spiritually. Natural feet cannot tread in the spiritual world, physical eyes cannot see it hands of flesh cannot touch it. It's from out of the invisible kingdom of heaven that we hear God's voice in our inner man and are subsequently able to imagine and express these inspirations in images derived from natural life to create a picture of this unseen, unheard and untouched reality. In this same manner, Jesus spoke of this invisible world in parables too. He began His parables with these words: "The Kingdom of heaven may be compared to ..."
Jesus said: "I am the resurrection and the life", We are resurrected with Him when we adopt His ways of thinking, for then we will speak and act as He did. Then we view earthly circumstances from the heavenly places, from 'above.' When a beloved disciple tried to keep Jesus from going to Jerusalem to suffer and die the Lord saw immediately who it was that had influenced and penetrated Peter in the spiritual world. Therefore the Lord said to Peter, "Get thee behind me, Satan". Before this same disciple denied Him, Jesus warned that Satan would sift him like wheat. But the Lord also told him that He had prayed for Peter, that He had been active in the heavenly places to save this apostle from the claws of Satan.
Lacking insight concerning the Kingdom of Heaven, there are Christians who remain largely unable to live and develop there. It could be said that their faith and life is near identical to the frail thought-world of the Old Testament personalities. Their knowledge is related to the natural world and this world does not go beyond the grave. The things that lie beyond the grave are a closed book for them. They like to quote the words of Moses, "The secret things belong to the Lord our God; but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children for ever", (Deut 29:29). But in the New Covenant Paul says: "For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths (the deepest thoughts) of God", (1Cor 2:10). We should all rejoice and pray for a double portion of this Spirit!
Yes, we're well aware that some Christians boast that well-loved text which seems to teach the so-called 'sleep of the soul', Psalm 115:16: "The heavens are the Lord's heavens, but the earth He has given to the sons of man. The dead do not praise the Lord". Clearly, they failed to see that this verse shows the tremendous difference between the Old and the New covenant. For the Lord says to His followers: "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the Kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given", (Matt 13:11). Ecclesiastes says: "The dead know nothing, and they have no more reward; but the memory of them is lost". It could be said about those Christians who live at the Old Testament level that they certainly do have knowledge of the things happening on earth, but know nothing of that which is related to the unseen Kingdom of heaven and have little share with the body of the Lord which is formed there.
When we bury someone, while he's dead for us, he lives for God who dwells in the unseen world, (Luke 20:38). The so-called doctrine of the sleep of the soul is based on the assumption that at his death the entire person dies. He is assumed to cease existing in body, soul and spirit. This error is in flat contradiction with the things the New Testament teaches about the Kingdom of heaven. Just think of Abraham's discussion with Lazarus and the rich man. Revelation 6:9 tells us of the crying of the souls that were slain for the Word of God. These dead are capable of crying even though they do not have a physical body. God Himself, and the host of spirits, are capable of calling, sometimes even with a loud voice, (Rev 14:5).
A sleeping person is not dead but moves in the unseen world only. In the spirit he is able to walk, to struggle, to have fear, even to make long journeys, traveling in the spirit. When a Christian dies he ceases to be able to function on earth. He falls asleep and lives on in the unseen Kingdom of God.
When we were born again, we rose to a new life. To us applied: "Awake, O sleeper, and arise from the dead". This makes it clear that this unseen man, the inner man, does not die a second time to be resurrected a second time at the coming of Jesus. After all, Jesus said to the faithful of the New Covenant they would never see or taste death, (John 8:51-52), and those who believe in Him shall live, even though they die, and whoever lives and believes in Him shall never die, (John 11:25-26).
Once we have risen from spiritual death, and persevere in faith, we will not die to fall victim to death and Hades. We belong to the body of Christ and have, just as that body, eternal life only. When the believer dies when his soul is separated from his body, he will be at home with the Lord, (1Cor 5:8). Death no longer has dominion over him because he is united with Jesus Christ, the Head of the body, who has conquered death, (Romans 6:9). On earth we live m the power of the Holy Spirit, the same Spirit Who raised Jesus from the dead, He who is united with such a Spirit will not enter death, and that Spirit will not abandon man when he dies. Timothy 1:10 says that Christ Jesus abolished death and has brought to light life and immortality through the gospel. That means He has done away with death.
God said to Adam, "In the day that you eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall die". For us Christians however, there is a tree of life, and those who eat of it will live forever. "I am the bread of life. If any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever, and those who eat it shall not die", (John 6:48-51). The doctrine of the sleep of the soul horridly interferes with the foundation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It says that the spiritually resurrected will die again. A natural orientated thought-world which primarily occupies itself visible world rather than with the Kingdom of God is, in itself, 'life-less'. Such a thought-world hardly recognizes the most well-known text in the Bible: "For God so loved the world that He gave his only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life", (John 3:16). Because of this eternal life the inner man is able to go on, and to persevere forever. This hidden, unseen eternal life cannot be damaged by death because it's sustained by the Holy Spirit. It's a life of a endless high quality. In 2Cor 5:1-10, Paul compares our death with the destruction of the earthly tent. He shows that even then the faithful have a building from God in heaven, an eternal house. The apostle longed for the moment of taking up a dwelling place in that heavenly house. It is a heavenly home, that is, a purely spiritual body which functions in the unseen world only.
Some may ask, What is now the resurrection of the dead?. Does it mean that the graves are opened and the tombstones lifted and dead people suddenly arise? But then how about those who died ages ago whose graves have vanished? How about the martyrs who were burned, their ashes strewn out in the river? The answers are found in 1Cor 15:35-49: "But some one will ask, 'How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come? You foolish man! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body which is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as He has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body". The kernel has the invisible life in itself and this life is the beginning of the new plant. The kernel does not produce a kernel, but a new plant which will produce new kernels later. The new life starts at regeneration and it grows just like a plant develops from the seed. The seed is not made alive, it dies. But that which was its life develops into a new plant.
In the same way the physical body that dies is not made alive again but decomposes in the same way as the outside of the kernel. The inner life develops into a new appearance, different from the seed, but in keeping with the laws of life that were hidden in it. From every seed an individual body develops. It may be a tree, a shrub, or some kind of corn or any other kind of plant. The plant that develops may be compared with the spiritual house. The seed that vanished decomposes to dust, picture of the natural body, but the plant itself develops in another atmosphere where there is light and air and sun.
When the Lord returns those who slept in Christ will be raised, they will arise first. Their spiritual body is raised, (1Cor 15:44), but their physical body has long returned to dust and will not be raised.
Resurrection is a new life and work in the unseen world. Those who have fallen asleep have rested from their labors, but at a sign of the Most High they will arise and take up their work. The power of God gives substance to their spiritual bodies, giving it flesh and bones, similar to that of the glorified Lord. At all times, however the spiritual body remains spiritual, that is subjected to spiritual laws only, not to earthly laws. For that reason it is not confined in time or place; this body cannot be localized or entered into a time-scheme.
Life in the body of resurrection is a mystery but we can conceptualize an imagining to draw this weak comparison: we know that water vapor is invisible. It is subject to the physical laws for gases. Water vapor is even able to penetrate walls. Under certain circumstances, however, it is transformed and becomes visible as water, fog, hoarfrost, snow or hail, which are all subjected to the laws for solids or liquids. The Lord's immortal body was able to penetrate doors but at the same time Jesus said: "See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself; handle me, and see for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see that I have", (Luke 24:39). When Jesus ascended to heaven a cloud 'took Him out of their sight". Now Jesus is in the heavenly places only; although the possibility also exists for our Lord to appear in a visible shape. (Mark 16:12). This is what happened to John at Patmos, and to Paul, who was told that he is appointed "to see the Just One and to hear a voice from his mouth", (Acts 22:14).
During his life on earth a Christian moves in two worlds. In his physical body he is on earth, 'away from the Lord' in a foreign country but his spiritual body is in Christ, that is in Christ's body. When he dies he is detached from the natural sphere and dwells with the Lord only. When Jesus returns to earth He is accompanied by the saints who have fallen asleep. When He appears they will appear with Him. The Christians who are alive left until the coming of the Lord. will be changed in a moment, 'in the twinkling of an eye,' and their perishable bodies will be transformed into immortal and glorified bodies. In these bodies they will be caught up to meet the Lord to join the saints who have already risen, (1Thess 4:16-17). Then the time has come that the 'planting of the Lord' will be functioning anew and bear new fruit. These 'trees of life,' the Bible says, will bear fruit twelve times, yielding it each month, and their leaves, (the gifts of the spirit), are for the healing of the nations.
My above comments only concern the first resurrection and not the 'last resurrection' in which the dead, small and great, will stand before the throne of God.
Ophel
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Some good thoughts there, Itz Me...but the Resurrection is the ACTUAL and LITERAL resurrection of the dead in Christ and the translation of the living in Christ. It is a one-time event. It is malarkey to super-spiritualize it. You just confuse new believers with that.
The dead in Christ literally come out of their graves--both marked and tended graves and unmarked, long gone graves (God knows where their atoms are) and are renewed physically, reunited with their living spirits. It's physical.
The dead in Christ literally come out of their graves--both marked and tended graves and unmarked, long gone graves (God knows where their atoms are) and are renewed physically, reunited with their living spirits. It's physical.
Hi! 'Ophel'
Not a problem. I appreciate your response.
I was jus' sharin' some thoughts ... I don't pretend to be some theological 'Pope' 'er anything as such. I always maintain a posture which is prepared to be corrected.
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@Ophel @Itz Me @judge not
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:42-43 KJV
Now when the thief asked the Lord while on the cross to remember him when He came into His kingdom. Where do believe the kingdom was that the thief was referring to at?
When the Lord said "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise". Where also, is this paradise located and what was the time period for this to happen?
We know that the Lord's resurrection (Bodily) did not happen for 3 days, and the thief stayed in the ground or wherever he happend to be buried, which is more than likely a common grave "potters field" unless family came to claim the body (less likely since he was a thief).
So, where were the spirits of the Lord & thief go after the body died?
If we know where the thief went, then rest assured that we also who believe will get to meet this man on the cross, who identified as a thief, but is a Brother in Christ Jesus!
In love.
YBIC
C4E
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Luke 23:42-43 KJV
Now when the thief asked the Lord while on the cross to remember him when He came into His kingdom. Where do believe the kingdom was that the thief was referring to at?
When the Lord said "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise". Where also, is this paradise located and what was the time period for this to happen?
We know that the Lord's resurrection (Bodily) did not happen for 3 days, and the thief stayed in the ground or wherever he happend to be buried, which is more than likely a common grave "potters field" unless family came to claim the body (less likely since he was a thief).
So, where were the spirits of the Lord & thief go after the body died?
If we know where the thief went, then rest assured that we also who believe will get to meet this man on the cross, who identified as a thief, but is a Brother in Christ Jesus!
In love.
YBIC
C4E
Ophel
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By faith the thief on the cross entered into the spiritual Kingdom, but when he died, his spirit went to that same place that Jesus went---to Paradise, Abraham's Bosom, the compartment of Hades reserved for the righteous. Jesus revealed Himself as their long-awaited Messiah, and at that point, Paradise was no longer necessary, for they were led out to heaven and from that moment on, the way to the Father has been through faith in the Son, Jesus, who made a way for us.
The problem with this assumption is that you have given man's spirit immortality-eternal life- at the time of death yet 1 Cor 15:53 tells us immortality is something we receive or put on at the time of Christ's second coming.
the Bible shows we will not be coming with Jesus at His return to earth but we will be changed, some while still alive and others in Christ who are on earth asleep(dead) then into spiritual immortal beings and meet Him up in the air to return to the earth to reign with Him. this is the very first resurrection of any human being.into a spiritual body. Jesus was the first fruit of that change from human to spiritual.
What happened to all the millions who have died over the thousands of years not even hearing of Jesus or any gospel ?
Are they in heaven or are they asleep still in their graves? What is their fate?
Ophel
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No, God has given us eternal life and it begins at faith. That is not an assumption. It is truth.
John 17:3
And this is the way to have eternal life--to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth.
John 3:36
And anyone who believes in God’s Son has eternal life. Anyone who doesn’t obey the Son will never experience eternal life but remains under
God’s angry judgment.
Eternal life is found in knowing God. Are you living out your eternal life today? Do people want what you have in Christ or are you just happy enough to have escaped hellfire and are waiting it out until heaven? You can enjoy your eternal life NOW.
God tells us in His word that Jesus will come with all His saints. We will be changed and with Him, and will have celebrated the wedding of he Lamb before God issues the command to His Son to "Go!" then the Bridegroom with His Bride will go to claim their home. You have gotten the timing of the first resurrection off. You've mixed it up with Jesus' Second Coming.
All the dead will be dealt with on Judgment Day, and all who have never heard of Jesus Christ will be judged on the revelation that they had been given. God has it all in hand. All those people who lived and died before Jesus came and who believed that there was a coming Messiah and were righteous in God's eyes will have had a wondrous visit in Hades (Paradise) from the Saviour after He died, and he will have led them all out and they are now in heaven.
No one is "asleep" anywhere. The spirits of the redeemed are enjoying Jesus now, and the spirits of the lost are languishing in Hades awaiting final judgment.
Ophel
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Zechariah 14:5(AMP)
And you shall flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal, and you shall flee as you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah; and the Lord my [Zechariah’s] God shall come, and all the holy ones [saints and angels] with Him.
And you shall flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal, and you shall flee as you fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah; and the Lord my [Zechariah’s] God shall come, and all the holy ones [saints and angels] with Him.
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. John 5:39
No to engage in semantics since the term 'eternal' is defined by principle and not interpretation.
Consider the term 'mortal'. It is defined as a living being or life form whose physical nature has a beginning of existence or birth and has an end of existence, or death. Thus, in Genesis 1:1, "in the beginning" defines the physical nature of this universe as being finite, or rather having a mortal nature. Since everything which has a beginning must have an end according to the physical laws of nature, even Jesus said that the universe would too pass away or end. [See Matt 24, verse 35 "Heaven and earth shall pass away,..."][ See Mark 13, verse 31 "Heaven and earth shall pass away:..."][See Luke 21, verse 33 "Heaven and earth shall pass away:" ]
I got $5 it don't ever end.
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