Wondering About Faith (Ephesians 2)

[Spockrates]

This sort of gets into my understanding of what hell actually is. I don't believe hell to be a cosmic prison that bad people are condemned to. I believe hell is the inverted experience of eternal life with God, which is eternal corruption from the presence of God. This is why sanctification is important, because it purges you of everything (metaphorically/spiritually) flammable.

Yes, it's possible the descriptions of hell in scripture are symbolic rather than literal.

That said, I do not believe scripture says anything to support the idea that faith and works are somehow separate things. James says we must prove our faith BY our works. Love, charity, repentance, etc. These things justify your faith, and prove its salvific power within you.

Then I think you must believe as many Catholics I've spoken to do. They say the works of verse 9 are not the same as the works of verse 10. The former are useless in causing salvation and the later are essential to such salvation, I believe they believe.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—9 not by works, so that no one can boast.10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
(Ephesians 2)​

 

[Aenon]

Yes, it's possible the descriptions of hell in scripture are symbolic rather than literal.

Then I think you must believe as many Catholics I've spoken to do. They say the works of verse 9 are not the same as the works of verse 10. The former are useless in causing salvation and the later are essential to such salvation, I believe they believe.

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—9 not by works, so that no one can boast.10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
(Ephesians 2)​

I can't speak for catholics, but I am probably more aligned with them on this point than protestants. I do not believe Paul was referring to charity when talking about "works," but rather things like ceremonial jewish rituals such as circumcision.

 

[Spockrates]

I can't speak for catholics, but I am probably more aligned with them on this point than protestants. I do not believe Paul was referring to charity when talking about "works," but rather things like ceremonial jewish rituals such as circumcision.

You mean verse 9 was speaking of the of Jewish rituals, but verse 10 was speaking of charity?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Question is too vague.

I suppose if you see saved as an ongoing process that would be a vague or even invalid question.

There seem to be two main camps.
Those who believe being saved is a one time deal like an inheritance and the other believes
that is an ongoing process.
The ongoing process camp seems to have some more variations but there are also many more options.

So that question was for the one timers.
.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

This sort of gets into my understanding of what hell actually is. I don't believe hell to be a cosmic prison that bad people are condemned to. I believe hell is the inverted experience of eternal life with God, which is eternal corruption from the presence of God. This is why sanctification is important, because it purges you of everything (metaphorically/spiritually) flammable.

We talked about this before, and I think there is some truth to what you are saying, but we cannot dismiss the scriptures.

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" Matthew 25:41

The above scripture indicates that Hell is outside the presence of God ('depart from me'), and that it is a separate placed specifically created for the punishment of evil doers (eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels).

Here again, we see Hell being defined as a place away from God.

"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might," 2 thessalonians 1:9

And of course, the strongest evidence of a "cosmic prison that bad people are condemned to", would be found in the story Jesus told about Lazarus and the rich man.



“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
LUKE 16

 

[DHC]

I was away too long and I don't really know where to jump in anymore...

Hello Aenon.
You can find my reply, it is number 202, every post is numbered in the bottom right hand corner.

 

[Aenon]

We talked about this before, and I think there is some truth to what you are saying, but we cannot dismiss the scriptures.

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels" Matthew 25:41

The above scripture indicates that Hell is outside the presence of God ('depart from me'), and that it is a separate placed specifically created for the punishment of evil doers (eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels).

Here again, we see Hell being defined as a place away from God.

"They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might," 2 thessalonians 1:9

And of course, the strongest evidence of a "cosmic prison that bad people are condemned to", would be found in the story Jesus told about Lazarus and the rich man.



“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

“But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
LUKE 16

Actually, your version of 2 th 1:9 is a bad translation. The ESV is wrong by inserting the word "away." It should simply read "from." That verse actually proves my point that the presence of the Lord is the actual source of the torment. Also:

Revelation 14:10 (KJV)
"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb"

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

Ok, so, like I said, i do think there is some truth to your point of view. But, 2 Thessalonians 1:9 aside, there are other scriptures (like i said, lazarus and the rich man would be the best one), that indicate otherwise. so i think its important not to get too caught up in traditions but instead just focus on what scripture says. i am not saying that scripture says one way or the other, what i am saying is that we can not say one way or the other but can only say what scripture says. now, if we want to express our opinion based on our interpretation, thats good and well. lets just qualify our statements though. (not saying you havent qualified your statements, but just speaking in general terms.. and... to myself)

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Let me state it in a question.
In Saul's encounter on the road to damascus,did he suddenly believe because of faith or confrontation?

Well let me ask you this......if you were walking down the road and a super bright light appears and a voice starts talking to you. Now the voice is saying He is the one in which you have been persecuting...........and so on.........now tell me this...........would faith come before being confronted in a situation like this or would Faith come after the confrontation or after he was blind or perhaps after he could see again ? In there is your asnswer !

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

The soul is still hanging there waiting to be defined.
I never got your feedback on whether soul and spirit are different things.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
The soul is not mentioned but the spirit is.

Do you feel that you are spirit, a soul or flesh or something else?
Sometimes person is used instead of soul,a captain of a boat has souls on board.

Old testament
Strong's 5315 Nephesh=a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion

New testament
Strong's 5590 psyxḗ (from psyxō, "to breathe, blow" which is the root of the English words "psyche," "psychology") – soul (psyche); a person's distinct identity (unique personhood), i.e. individual personality.

Is there any scripture that provides evidence that a soul is eternal?

Soul is MIND WILL AND EMOTIONS ......Through out the written word of God it is referred to as THE FLESH or THE OLD MAN or THE OLD NATURE.........When we become born again God places His spirit in us thus the battle of the flesh "soul" vs the spirit man.
So the human man must have a spirit but not Gods spirit until He is born again. How else would one be able to suffer in hell?
The flesh/body would not be able to.........you have heard it said that joe smo sold his soul to the devil.... this simply means joe has given rights to the devil to lead or control him through his life BUT joe can still find Christ especially if there are some spirit filled believers praying for him.............

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Hi Wired. Glad you replied.

So let's focus on verse 8 and use an imaginary situation to consider the truth of the words. Since I'm a fan of Spock and science fiction, this might suffice:

I'm an alien whose space craft has crashed on Earth. You are a linguist who is hired by the U.S. government to learn my language. After I'm nursed back to health, you are asked to try to communicate with me. I don't have a mouth as you know it and don't appear to communicate verbally, but there is written language in the wreckage of my space craft. In fact, there is a kind of Rosetta Stone from the wreckage, which has some words in my language juxtaposition to English, Arabic, Hebrew and other languages, some of which are not of Earth. Unfortunately, my assignment was to pilot the craft to Earth and the linguist who was on the mission with be perished in the crash.

After much research you are able to translate English into my alien language and begin communicating with me in writing. Since you are also a Christian you decide to translate the Bible for me. God created all life, you reason, and Christ must have died for aliens as well as humans. So you begin with Ephesians and translate chapter 2, through verse 10.

My question for the sake of discussion is this: Will I now have everything I need to know to be saved, or will you need to translate another passage from the Bible to give me the full truth about salvation? If I need another passage, which one will you translate for me?

At first thought, Hmmm I call my friend in Christ who is named The Curse of the Rodian. See he writes reports and transcripts such as this and books as well. So to be truthful I would call him and then I would be going fishing..... :whistle

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

would faith come before being confronted in a situation like this or would Faith come after the confrontation or after he was blind or perhaps after he could see again ? In there is your asnswer !

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Through faith I am confronted with evidence,if there is overwhelming evidence then there is no faith,only fact.
If there is very little evidence then it could be fantasy.
It does not take much faith to get up and walk across the room and flip a light switch and expect the light to come on unless no one has paid the bill for a year.
Just also said we can have little faith or great faith.

Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
I would tend to think that Paul had overwhelming evidence of the reality of jesus as God..

Soul is MIND WILL AND EMOTIONS ......Through out the written word of God it is referred to as THE FLESH or THE OLD MAN or THE OLD NATURE.........When we become born again God places His spirit in us thus the battle of the flesh "soul" vs the spirit man.

Thats how I understand it also although I am not certain that his spirit is not already in us in some form because saved or unsaved it returns to god who gave it.

So the human man must have a spirit but not Gods spirit until He is born again. How else would one be able to suffer in hell?

That's the first time I've heard that. ,I will certainly have to consider that.
I assumed most believed the soul was what was saved from hell.
Thanks for you response.

 

[Aenon]

Ok, so, like I said, i do think there is some truth to your point of view. But, 2 Thessalonians 1:9 aside, there are other scriptures (like i said, lazarus and the rich man would be the best one), that indicate otherwise. so i think its important not to get too caught up in traditions but instead just focus on what scripture says. i am not saying that scripture says one way or the other, what i am saying is that we can not say one way or the other but can only say what scripture says. now, if we want to express our opinion based on our interpretation, thats good and well. lets just qualify our statements though. (not saying you havent qualified your statements, but just speaking in general terms.. and... to myself)

You can't make such a false dichotomy. There is no such thing as "scripture or tradition." If you think you are siding with scripture over tradition, you're kidding yourself. What is actually happening is you are siding with your own understanding of what scripture means over what others have said scripture means. The dichotomy is not scripture vs tradition, it is "you vs tradition." I could very well explain those passages to fit my understanding, just like you explain them to fit yours.

 

[Aenon]

So all occurrences of the word 'saved' in the scripture never actually mean saved, the word usage
by the apostles actually means 'unsaved'. Simply because no one is saved until all the specified
works have been successfully accomplished. Is this correct so far Aenon?

I wouldn't say it means "unsaved." I would say it means "on the narrow way." It means one walks the path to salvation. It means as the ancient Didache says, one walks "in the way of life."

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

You can't make such a false dichotomy. There is no such thing as "scripture or tradition." If you think you are siding with scripture over tradition, you're kidding yourself. What is actually happening is you are siding with your own understanding of what scripture means over what others have said scripture means. The dichotomy is not scripture vs tradition, it is "you vs tradition." I could very well explain those passages to fit my understanding, just like you explain them to fit yours.

i understand what you are trying to say. but i am not saying what you think i am saying.

for example, you used to be a calvinist. so back then you allowed your traditions to define scripture for you. and at times that meant twisting a scripture to mold it to meet with other scriptures that you based your traditions on.

there are many examples of scriptures which seem to present a contradiction, or better stated a paradox. we usually choose the scripture we like better, form some tradition which molds the entire bible around our understanding of those scriptures we prefer best, and then twist and bend and shape the other scriptures which are at conflict with our understanding.

for example, the story of lazarus and the rich man. i am not using tradition to interpret what this scripture says, i am only simply giving you directly what it says. If we take this scripture as plainly written, it is obviously talking about physical separation, with a great physical distance between two real separate physical locations. This scripture plainly speaks of a "cosmic prison" type of hell. if you wish to bend and twist it in order to better meet with the plain reading of other scriptures, then what your doing is elevating your understanding, your traditions, above that of scripture. we should not try to eliminate apparent paradoxes in order to appease our understandings.


""Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us."

 

[Dovegiven]

Would you say, then God finds fault with the disobedient (and I agree the only holy God certainly has every right to disapprove of them!) and so he withholds wisdom from them?
Please share with me just one passage of scripture you are sure clearly teaches you are now immune to deception.

Sorry to be so late replying, been very busy. James 4:7-8 (KJV)
7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

That's my immunity promise. However, it's conditional, like I have a new Kaspersky antifvirus DVD still in the mailer envelope, it's useless if not installed and maintained by paying the annual renewal. I just checked, have 12 days left to do that.

Double mindedness is the real danger for any Christian, deceiving ourselves if not submitted to God.
James 1:19-25 (KJV)
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

So am I immune to being deceived? Yes, now. It's conditional, though. Can I deceive myself? Yes, later. I can do the Devil's work as soon as I neglect the conditions of the promise of immunity.

 

[Dovegiven]

Dovegiven. I'm not saying I doubt there is such a passage. I'm saying please don't feel obligated to spent time providing many. Choosing one for me to consider for now will do.

Also I very much want to know if I'm understanding you correctly and you believe God withholds wisdom from the disobedient.

Sorry to disturb the current trend of this thread.

By that promise the Devil is eliminated from abusing me, so it's left to the Lord with me. Letting my Old Man resume control could disrupt that relationship, which I don't contemplate.

King Solomon was gifted much wealth and wisdom from God. Yet, in his end days he abandoned much of that wisdom, distracted by the wealth and ways of the world. It isn't that God takes anything back, at all, even anointing, but that he will allow a person to abandon his gifts by neglecting them.

 

[DHC]

I wouldn't say it means "unsaved." I would say it means "on the narrow way." It means one walks the path to salvation. It means as the ancient Didache says, one walks "in the way of life."

Hello Aenon.

I asked you what the apostles meant Aenon, when they used the word 'saved' in the New Testament.

The reason I asked you for the meaning of the word 'saved', was because you seemed to be using an
alternative definition of this word. Your theological disposition or understanding, necessitates that
you do not accept the simple definition of the word 'saved'. Rather Aenon, you see the meaning of
the word 'saved' as "on the narrow way"?

Shall we examine the text together in order to establish the correct meaning of the word 'saved'.

Act 15:11
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved (G4982) even as they.

The meaning of the word 'saved' in the Koine Greek (G4982), is simply: to save, keep safe and sound,
to rescue from danger or destruction. The English translation of the Koine Greek (G4982) will not permit
the application of your alternate definition, i.e., "on the narrow way".

Aenon your definition of the word 'saved' is nothing more than a distortion of the correct meaning of the word.
When the apostles announced that one was 'saved' by Grace, they meant exactly what they said.

"through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved"

Grace will always be a free gift, and will always be the underlying mechanism of salvation. To be "saved"
means simply that one is "saved" and is entirely through the unmerited and free gift of Grace.

Your theological definition is based on a faulty understanding or interpretation, of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
More than likely Aenon, you have been taught an unsound interpretation which causes you, to alter the meanings
of words in the text. It is unacceptable to offer an alternate meaning to any word in the text, we play by the rules
at all times Aenon. The accepted definition will always be the only definition utilized by us.

 

[Aenon]

Hello Aenon.

I asked you what the apostles meant Aenon, when they used the word 'saved' in the New Testament.

The reason I asked you for the meaning of the word 'saved', was because you seemed to be using an
alternative definition of this word. Your theological disposition or understanding, necessitates that
you do not accept the simple definition of the word 'saved'. Rather Aenon, you see the meaning of
the word 'saved' as "on the narrow way"?

Shall we examine the text together in order to establish the correct meaning of the word 'saved'.

Act 15:11
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved (G4982) even as they.

The meaning of the word 'saved' in the Koine Greek (G4982), is simply: to save, keep safe and sound,
to rescue from danger or destruction. The English translation of the Koine Greek (G4982) will not permit
the application of your alternate definition, i.e., "on the narrow way".

Aenon your definition of the word 'saved' is nothing more than a distortion of the correct meaning of the word.
When the apostles announced that one was 'saved' by Grace, they meant exactly what they said.

"through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved"

Grace will always be a free gift, and will always be the underlying mechanism of salvation. To be "saved"
means simply that one is "saved" and is entirely through the unmerited and free gift of Grace.

Your theological definition is based on a faulty understanding or interpretation, of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
More than likely Aenon, you have been taught an unsound interpretation which causes you, to alter the meanings
of words in the text. It is unacceptable to offer an alternate meaning to any word in the text, we play by the rules
at all times Aenon. The accepted definition will always be the only definition utilized by us.

"Shall be" saved has absolutely nothing to say about present timeline. In fact, you just strengthened my argument because "shall be" is future tense. Thanks.

 

[Aenon]

i understand what you are trying to say. but i am not saying what you think i am saying.

for example, you used to be a calvinist. so back then you allowed your traditions to define scripture for you. and at times that meant twisting a scripture to mold it to meet with other scriptures that you based your traditions on.

there are many examples of scriptures which seem to present a contradiction, or better stated a paradox. we usually choose the scripture we like better, form some tradition which molds the entire bible around our understanding of those scriptures we prefer best, and then twist and bend and shape the other scriptures which are at conflict with our understanding.

for example, the story of lazarus and the rich man. i am not using tradition to interpret what this scripture says, i am only simply giving you directly what it says. If we take this scripture as plainly written, it is obviously talking about physical separation, with a great physical distance between two real separate physical locations. This scripture plainly speaks of a "cosmic prison" type of hell. if you wish to bend and twist it in order to better meet with the plain reading of other scriptures, then what your doing is elevating your understanding, your traditions, above that of scripture. we should not try to eliminate apparent paradoxes in order to appease our understandings.


""Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried out and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us."

Scripture also says God will cover you "with his feathers." (Psa 91:4) I guess by your simplistic criteria, God is a chicken, because we must always simply believe whatever literal interpretation comes to our individualistic minds.

You are reading it wrong. Hell is not literally a place where people need to drink water. It is symbolic for a deprived soul in need of Christ, the living water.