Is Rapture going to happen Before the Tribulation or After?

[DHC]

I'm kind of sad that you so quickly dismissed 2 Corinthians 5 as if it has nothing to do with the conversation. I don't think that is a very fair representation of those verses. But that's ok.

You seem to believe in soul sleep. I guess we've been talking about believers only. But if believers are 'asleep' until the judgement, what about unbelievers? Do you also believe that unbelievers are 'asleep' until the judgement?

Blessings,

Travis

Hello travis.

Yes travis, all fall asleep until Christ returns.

 

[norapture]

The scripture does not say that Jesus returns with the saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING with him.

 

[DHC]

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING with him.

Hello norapture.

Read that line you quoted again, you have refuted yourself.

This part, 'which sleep in Jesus', this is the clear and direct refutation of your claim. If they are asleep this means they
are dead. Christ arrives and the dead are with Him. Then we have the resurrection of the living and the dead, and only
then do we enter the kingdom. If your quotation actually said Christ arrives with the living saints, then you would be correct.
But the verse states 'which sleep in Jesus' or 'the dead in Christ' might be better.

Look norapture, the triune creature, the saint, is not transformed until Christ returns, fact. So a saint cannot arrive with Jesus
fact. This interpretation of yours is grossly incorrect.

 

[norapture]

This is only a parable is never a good platform for any doctrine.

Matthew 13:34-35
34 All these things spake Jesus
unto the multitude in parables; and
without a parable spake he not
unto them.
35 That it might be fulfilled which
was spoken by the prophet, saying
I will open my mouth in PARABLES; I will utter things which have been KEPT SECRET from the foundation of the world.

Sounds like to me he spoke of
things in parables , that was kept a secret from the foundation of the world.

2 Timothy 3:16 ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for reproof , for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

So you say a parable isn't good platform for doctrine, sorry but I will believe scripture over any man.

 

[DHC]

I have been on this thread from the beginning and respectfully, have some comments on this:

I take this as written here: The dead in Christ will rise first, there is nothing here about the dead not in Christ.

I am not sure why there would be confusion here?
Yes, they have been with the lord, spiritually! What is being addressed here is resurrection of the body. At this time of gathering his church, those who are spiritually in or with Jesus Christ, will miraculously have their bodies raised to join there spirits where God will converted both body and spirit and transform them into the complete resurrected body as Jesus had demonstrated and God has promised.

That is another subject, but for sure the dead non-believers will not be raised incorruptible and will not be with the Lord (body and/or spirit) in heaven!
As opposed to some others here at T.J, I respect both of you DHC and Travis, but I am just saying...where am I wrong so far?

Hello RJ.

How did I miss this post of yours, still trying to come to grips with the new forum, sorry mate.

I likewise do respect your comments also RJ.

The verse in question.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and
with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

I take this as written here: The dead in Christ will rise first, there is nothing here about the
dead not in Christ

Correct RJ, Paul letter is not addressed to the unbelievers, so no mention of unbelievers rising here.
No need for Paul to discuss the unbelievers rising with the Thessalonians.

Yes, they have been with the lord, spiritually! What is being addressed here is resurrection of the
body. At this time of gathering his church, those who are spiritually in or with Jesus Christ, will miraculously
have their bodies raised to join there spirits where God will converted both body and spirit and transform
them into the complete resurrected body as Jesus had demonstrated and God has promised

You need the scripture to support the ideology of a resurrected body only, regarding the resurrection
of the living and the dead. Also the scripture that states that we are spiritually resurrected before
Christ's return.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with
the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

The verse says 'the dead in Christ', it does not mention a resurrection of a body?

Just to put a nail into the coffin of the idea of only a resurrected body at the resurrection event.

1 Corinthians 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead
will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

The dead believers are raised at the last trumpet. The dead believer and not the body only, will be
transformed into the imperishable.

Again I apologize RJ, in future if i do not reply, just message me in future.

 

[RJ]

Hello RJ.

How did I miss this post of yours, still trying to come to grips with the new forum, sorry mate.

I likewise do respect your comments also RJ.

The verse in question.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and
with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Correct RJ, Paul letter is not addressed to the unbelievers, so no mention of unbelievers rising here.
No need for Paul to discuss the unbelievers rising with the Thessalonians.

You need the scripture to support the ideology of a resurrected body only, regarding the resurrection
of the living and the dead. Also the scripture that states that we are spiritually resurrected before
Christ's return.

1 Thessalonians 4:16
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with
the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

The verse says 'the dead in Christ', it does not mention a resurrection of a body?

Just to put a nail into the coffin of the idea of only a resurrected body at the resurrection event.

1 Corinthians 15:52
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead
will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

The dead believers are raised at the last trumpet. The dead believer and not the body only, will be
transformed into the imperishable.

Again I apologize RJ, in future if i do not reply, just message me in future.

Received, but one of the best things about truth is that it requires no apologies

 

[just-a-servant]

There is a lot to say about this, so it can't be done in a simple forum post. All I will say is that the ancient world and the patristic writings expound upon the idea that the body is planted in the earth like a seed, when one is buried at death. As the seed awaits to be transfigured into the flower when it resurrects from the ground, so we await our resurrected transfiguration on the last day. Christ was the first fruits, which is a promise that the rest is coming (a tree cannot produce 1 fruit, it either produces many or none)

What you've said Aenon is only partly true. The dead are planted like a seed to rise anew at the resurrection, however you neglect the passage in 1 Thes 4:16-17:
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Verse 16 says the dead in Christ shall rise first - which is what you've said. Verse 17 goes on to say those who are alive (note "not dead") shall be caught up with them (the resurrected dead) to be with the Lord. The scripture can be no clearer on the subject. The only issue left to debate amongst we who believe is when this event WILL take place.

As to the "rapture" word, call it whatever you want - catching up, taken away, going to glory - it really doesn't matter what it's called, the fact remains the living will be transformed and will be with the Lord and not die as their predecessors did. Take a look at the scripture with your anti-John Darby lenses off, you might find something useful.

IMHO,
just-a-servant

 

[RJ]

What you've said Aenon is only partly true. The dead are planted like a seed to rise anew at the resurrection, however you neglect the passage in 1 Thes 4:16-17:
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Verse 16 says the dead in Christ shall rise first - which is what you've said. Verse 17 goes on to say those who are alive (note "not dead") shall be caught up with them (the resurrected dead) to be with the Lord. The scripture can be no clearer on the subject. The only issue left to debate amongst we who believe is when this event WILL take place.

As to the "rapture" word, call it whatever you want - catching up, taken away, going to glory - it really doesn't matter what it's called, the fact remains the living will be transformed and will be with the Lord and not die as their predecessors did. Take a look at the scripture with your anti-John Darby lenses off, you might find something useful.

IMHO,
just-a-servant

I don't believe Aenon is with us anymore

 

[Curtis]

There is no rapture in the sense of how modern dispensationalism defines. Like I said, it is a misinterpretation of what i said. What I said was how the early church interpreted Paul. They did not understand the resurrection of the body on the last day the way you understand the rapture. That's my point. Everyone is raised, not just believers. The unbelievers are raised unto judgment, and the believers are raised unto glory.

There is one thousand years between the "rapture" (first resurrection) until all the rest of the dead are raised. (second resurrection)

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Curtis]

Eric how does a man, that does not have the Holy Ghost, not take the mark, or worship the beast?
By his on power?
Even Peter denied the Lord 3 times, before he got the Holy Ghost.
So what keeps those in Revelation 20 from worshiping the beast , so much they will die first.
Nowhere in scripture, does it say the Holy Ghost goes to heaven.
Do you not no that the Holy Ghost , is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
And Jesus Christ said in Matthew, I will be with you even until , the END of the WORLD

When the Church is taken away the Holy Spirit will still be here on earth. The reason the "man of sin" can not be revealed is because of the Church in which the Holy Spirit flows from is "restraining" him. God can not send the Holy Spirit to go preach the Gospel without a man to preach it through! Man has authority on earth, and because of this authority the Holy Spirit can work. Take the people out and the Spirit of God remains here as there will be others who will need his power.