Is Rapture going to happen Before the Tribulation or After?

[Travis]

There is a lot to say about this, so it can't be done in a simple forum post. All I will say is that the ancient world and the patristic writings expound upon the idea that the body is planted in the earth like a seed, when one is buried at death. As the seed awaits to be transfigured into the flower when it resurrects from the ground, so we await our resurrected transfiguration on the last day. Christ was the first fruits, which is a promise that the rest is coming (a tree cannot produce 1 fruit, it either produces many or none)

So then….. what about those who are still alive at the coming of the Lord, who are believers in Christ Jesus.

 

[Aenon]

So then….. what about those who are still alive at the coming of the Lord, who are believers in Christ Jesus.

I hope you're not wondering whether or not they are allowed to rise if they are not physically in the ground...

 

[Travis]

I hope you're not wondering whether or not they are allowed to rise if they are not physically in the ground...

The only thing I'm wondering is what you are implying when you say there is no rapture.

The bible speaks plainly about a rapture. The only question is what is the timing of it.

I know what I believe regarding this. I'm trying to understand what you believe.

 

[RJ]

There is a lot to say about this, so it can't be done in a simple forum post. All I will say is that the ancient world and the patristic writings expound upon the idea that the body is planted in the earth like a seed, when one is buried at death. As the seed awaits to be transfigured into the flower when it resurrects from the ground, so we await our resurrected transfiguration on the last day. Christ was the first fruits, which is a promise that the rest is coming (a tree cannot produce 1 fruit, it either produces many or none)

If your religion teaches you currently have just this one fruit first fruit of Christ, then I feel very sad for you, for the true Christ exhibits multiple fruits of the vine!

 

[Aenon]

The only thing I'm wondering is what you are implying when you say there is no rapture.

The bible speaks plainly about a rapture. The only question is what is the timing of it.

I know what I believe regarding this. I'm trying to understand what you believe.

There is no rapture in the sense of how modern dispensationalism defines. Like I said, it is a misinterpretation of what i said. What I said was how the early church interpreted Paul. They did not understand the resurrection of the body on the last day the way you understand the rapture. That's my point. Everyone is raised, not just believers. The unbelievers are raised unto judgment, and the believers are raised unto glory.

 

[Aenon]

If your religion teaches you currently have just this one fruit first fruit of Christ, then I feel very sad for you, for the true Christ exhibits multiple fruits of the vine!

I don't think you read my post.

 

[Travis]

They did not understand the resurrection of the body on the last day the way you understand the rapture.

How do you know how I understand it... Lol.

You come off as a slight bit arrogant. Just sayin.

Blessings,

Travis

 

[DHC]

Hello Eric.

Long time no see.

You stated that you believe the following.

(1) Jesus took the Old Testament saints to Heaven at His ascension. Ephesians 4:8 KJV

I believe these verses indicate that Jesus took the Old Testament saints to heaven when he went back.

Where exactly does the scripture state that the old testament saints are in heaven?

This passage in Ephesians is not saying that the old testament saints are in heaven already, Eric.

1 Thessalonians 4
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and
with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Only when Christ returns are the dead raised from their slumber. We do not precede the dead in Christ,
nor do the OT saints precede anyone else. All together, we all will meet the Lord together.

 

[RJ]

How do you know how I understand it... Lol.

You come off as a slight bit arrogant. Just sayin.

Blessings,

Travis

I believe that is his down fall, usually the sign of a False teacher.

 

[Aenon]

How do you know how I understand it... Lol.

You come off as a slight bit arrogant. Just sayin.

Blessings,

Travis

Wow. If I said, "your definition of arrogance is very different from mine," would you perceive that as arrogant? Of course not, because I can see your understanding of the definition based on what you have said.

 

[Travis]

Wow. If I said, "your definition of arrogance is very different from mine," would you perceive that as arrogant? Of course not, because I can see your understanding of the definition based on what you have said.

Like I said = )

"You come off as a slight bit arrogant. Just sayin."

 

[Travis]

Where exactly does the scripture state that the old testament saints are in heaven?

What do you make of these verses DHC?

2 Corinthians 5
6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

Philippians 1
21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better. 24 But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.​

Blessings,

Travis

 

[DHC]

What do you make of these verses DHC?

Hello Travis.

Thanks for the reply Travis.

You asked me to comment on the following verses in light of the idea, that a person is not with the Lord until Christ arrives.

2 Corinthians 5
6 So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord,
7 for we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and
at home with the Lord.

This verse is not applicable Travis, since Paul is talking about walking by faith and not by sight.

Philippians 1
21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me.
Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. 23 I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with
Christ, for that is far better. 24 But to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.

This verse is applicable to our discussion Travis, well chosen. Please note that Paul does not say
that the moment he falls asleep he will be with the Lord. One cannot use this verse to support the
idea that when you fall asleep, you are then with the Lord immediately. Simply because Paul tells
us that the dead in Christ are not raised until the Lord returns. When you read the following verses
please note the references to sleep!

1 Thessalonians 4
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will
not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even
so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word
of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who
have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the
archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Those who sleep are those who have already passed away. The dead in Christ will be the first to
rise, but this does not occur until Jesus returns. The whole point of Paul's explanation is one group
does not precede the other group, the dead in Christ are also not lost because they have died already.
This idea that the dead are lost is what the Thessalonians were thinking and Paul corrects them
on this misunderstanding. I must emphasize 'who have fallen asleep in Jesus'.

 

[Travis]

Simply because Paul tells
us that the dead in Christ are not raised until the Lord returns. When you read the following verses
please note the references to sleep!

I'm kind of sad that you so quickly dismissed 2 Corinthians 5 as if it has nothing to do with the conversation. I don't think that is a very fair representation of those verses. But that's ok.

You seem to believe in soul sleep. I guess we've been talking about believers only. But if believers are 'asleep' until the judgement, what about unbelievers? Do you also believe that unbelievers are 'asleep' until the judgement?

Blessings,

Travis

 

[DHC]

I'm kind of sad that you so quickly dismissed 2 Corinthians 5 as if it has nothing to do with the conversation. I don't think that is a very fair representation of those verses. But that's ok.

You seem to believe in soul sleep. I guess we've been talking about believers only. But if believers are 'asleep' until the judgement, what about unbelievers? Do you also believe that unbelievers are 'asleep' until the judgement?

Blessings,

Travis

Hello Travis.

Don't be sad Travis, rejoice because your name is written in the book of life.

Please explain how you read the following line from the post above.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the
archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

How can the dead in Christ rise when they are already with the Lord?

Of course unbelievers are asleep also.

 

[norapture]

DHC , Let me ask you this , those that are dead in Christ, that God will bring with him , when he comes. How can he bring them with him, if they are still in the grave, when he comes?
A man's spirit goes to be with the Lord, when he dies , the only way the body is dead is without the spirit. Steven gave up the ghost (spirit) and died.
Faith is dead without works , same as the body is dead without a man's spirit.
Then Lazerus, and the rich man,
was not in there flesh body in the ground.
So how could someone believe, that upon death , you dont leave your flesh body, which is just a shell for the spirit

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

So how could someone believe, that upon death , you dont leave your flesh body, which is just a shell for the spirit

Don't confuse spirit with soul
Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Solomon agrees with you the spirit returns to where it came from.

The soul is a whole subject unto itself.
Old testament
Strong's 5315 Nephesh=a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion

New testament
Strong's 5590 psyxḗ (from psyxō, "to breathe, blow" which is the root of the English words "psyche," "psychology") – soul (psyche); a person's distinct identity (unique personhood), i.e. individual personality.

I agree with you,the question is are we a soul or a spirit?

 

[RJ]

I have been on this thread from the beginning and respectfully, have some comments on this:

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the
archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

I take this as written here: The dead in Christ will rise first, there is nothing here about the dead not in Christ.

How can the dead in Christ rise when they are already with the Lord?

I am not sure why there would be confusion here?
Yes, they have been with the lord, spiritually! What is being addressed here is resurrection of the body. At this time of gathering his church, those who are spiritually in or with Jesus Christ, will miraculously have their bodies raised to join there spirits where God will converted both body and spirit and transform them into the complete resurrected body as Jesus had demonstrated and God has promised.

Of course unbelievers are asleep also.

That is another subject, but for sure the dead non-believers will not be raised incorruptible and will not be with the Lord (body and/or spirit) in heaven!
As opposed to some others here at T.J, I respect both of you DHC and Travis, but I am just saying...where am I wrong so far?

 

[norapture]

[That's ="Thiscrosshurts, post: 254299, member: 22162"]
Don't confuse spirit with soul
Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Solomon agrees with you the spirit returns to where it came from.

The soul is a whole subject unto itself.
Old testament
Strong's 5315 Nephesh=a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion

New testament
Strong's 5590 psyxḗ (from psyxō, "to breathe, blow" which is the root of the English words "psyche," "psychology") – soul (psyche); a person's distinct identity (unique personhood), i.e. individual personality.

I agree with you,the question is are we a soul or a spirit?[/QUOTE]

Thats the question, so if we are made in the image of God, what are we ?

 

[DHC]

DHC , Let me ask you this , those that are dead in Christ, that God will bring with him , when he comes. How can he bring them with him, if they are still in the grave, when he comes?
A man's spirit goes to be with the Lord, when he dies , the only way the body is dead is without the spirit. Steven gave up the ghost (spirit) and died.
Faith is dead without works , same as the body is dead without a man's spirit.
Then Lazerus, and the rich man,
was not in there flesh body in the ground.
So how could someone believe, that upon death , you dont leave your flesh body, which is just a shell for the spirit

Hello Norapture.

Sorry for the delay.

Let me ask you this , those that are dead in Christ, that God will bring with him, when he comes

The scripture does not say that Jesus returns with the saints.

Matthew 24
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on
His glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from
one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His
right, and the goats on the left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are
blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

Jesus returns and is accompanied by the angels, Jesus does not return with the saints.

Man is a triune creature, body, soul and spirit, these three components are the necessary components.
It may be unsound to consider a saint as ever being but one of the three parts, of the triune form.

How can he bring them with him, if they are still in the grave, when he comes?

The apsotles and Jesus both taught that we await the return of Christ, when Jesus returns He will
judge the living and the dead. Then and only then, are we eligible to undergo the transformation
and enter the kingdom of heaven.

A man's spirit goes to be with the Lord, when he dies , the only way the body is dead is
without the spirit. Steven gave up the ghost (spirit) and died.

Again norapture, a man (saint) is comprised of body, soul and spirit. A saint is a three part creature,
it would be incorrect to claim that any saint is in heaven already. This is an impossibility and is in
direct conflict with the teaching of Jesus and the apostles.

Then Lazerus, and the rich man, was not in there flesh body in the ground.
So how could someone believe, that upon death , you dont leave your flesh body,
which is just a shell for the spirit

This is only a parable and a parable is never a good platform for any doctrine. I can safely assure
you that hell will not contain any rich man who did not feed a poor man at his gate. Hell will be
over flowing with unbelievers, people who have not accepted the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There
is only one way to avoid God's wrath and that is through and in His Son, Jesus Christ.