Are You Saved By Grace or Faith Alone

[Spockrates]

Paychecks are never gifts. They yield to the employee what they earned, that being their property. No worker is "rewarded" though payroll, who leases himself out in exchange for some wealth.

Dovegiven: Thanks for joining the conversation. I agree a paycheck is not a gift, but do you think a bonus check should never be considered a gift? Regarding a paycheck being a reward, please consider this: If two people are doing the same job for the same employer and one of them makes twice as much pay as the other, doesn't that mean one is being rewarded more than the other?

 

[Spockrates]

All through the Bible "grace" has meant in Hebrew and Greek alike "favor". We use "grace" to explain how your life insurance plan can't be cancelled if you are late on a payment, that there is provision (grace period) for a time to catch up, staying in favor of the insurer.
The grace of God is an attitude of his that's similar to his mercy, except that grace lets God keep value in a person on the basis of loving the person rather than on the basis of pity and forgiveness for every shortcoming. By his grace he determined before man was made that there would be a plan to recover his value of man who would be swallowed in sin.

I have a grace plan for my household of females who tend to drop earrings and other things precious to them in sinks. The hard side of me would be to say "Sorry", not wanting take the plumbing apart. But because I love my wife and daughters and grand daughters, I keep a 36" mechanics retriever tool handy that can snake down to grab whatever is lost without taking the plumbing apart. It brings up lots of hair, too :thumbsup:

God's grace plan for us always has been infinitely better than that. He introduced it to Adam and Eve, previewed it in the Torah, affirmed it through the prophets and psalmists, and manifested it in fully glory in Christ Jesus. Grace is always conditional, while mercy is one-sided, an act without condition, but only limited to specific situations, like a certain financial debt to be forgiven. Grace is far better, the conditions easy to meet, and is continuous for the obedient child of God. He makes us an offer we cannot resist in a right mind. He will even right a mind long enough to comprehend his offer when he calls a person to answer the Father..

The only way to access it is through faith in the words of God to assure our eternal life. That isn't a work, for as already said God gives us the faith that we might believe his word. James added that if we have received God's grace plan through faith to believe it, then evidence of works or righteousness will attend that faith, follow it, prove our faith is really from God and not along the lines of having faith in a sturdy looking chair to sit in it with all our weight. God's faith doesn't rely upon what we see and have reasonable flesh knowledge concerning something tangible. Once we believe without seeing, then the substance of our faith begins to manifest into what can be seen, held, heard, etc. But if the seeing, holding, hearing is demanded before acting upon the free gift of faith, then it is not a matter of faith, but more of a relationship like customer to a car sales agent.

Regarding the passages abut faith, were you referring to these?

Hebrews 12:2. "...Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith".

Romans 12:3. " ... God has allotted to each a measure of faith.”

 

[RJ]

I'm sorry for not confusing you. Maybe this will help: If I said, "RJ, Dovegiven just gave me $100.00!" would you say the money I got from Dovegiven was a gift or a payment?

:laugh::laugh::laugh: You said: Do you understand my point, or should I give further explanation?
I said no for both questions. I am not interested in anymore of your examples. God clearly says what grace, faith and works are. You can read scripture, you either know what it says or you don't

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

If I said, "RJ, Dovegiven just gave me $100.00!" would you say the money I got from Dovegiven was a gift or a payment?

I would need more information to determine causality.
Did he feel sorry for you?
Did he owe you money?
Did you contract some kind of service in exchange for cash.
Did you give him some kind of commodity?
Are you a politician in a place of power?
Are you a cop who just gave him a ticket?
Do you have a gun?

 

[Spockrates]

Greetings,
I am saved by grace and it is only because of His Shed Blood

Bless you ....><>

*please all read this from Revelation 5;

1And I saw in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? 3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

4 And I wept much,

because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. 5 And one of the elders saith unto me,
Weep not:
behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
6 And I beheld,
and, lo,
in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts,
and in the midst of the elders,

stood a Lamb as it had been slain,

having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7 And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him that sat upon the throne. 8 And when He had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying,
Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
11 And I beheld,
and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders:
and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

12 Saying with a loud voice,
Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. 13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto Him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. 14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped Him that liveth for ever and ever.

Mr. Bear. Thanks for the scripture. Please explain how it ties into our discussion.

 

[Spockrates]

:laugh::laugh::laugh: You said: Do you understand my point, or should I give further explanation?
I said no for both questions. I am not interested in anymore of your examples. God clearly says what grace, faith and works are. You can read scripture, you either know what it says or you don't

Yes, sorry for misunderstanding you and for trying your patience. Socrates said of himself, "I have, it seems a tedious way of asking a simple question." I suppose I have the same. Thank you so much for sticking with me as long as you did. I suppose someday I'll find the truth about the scripture you quoted. Blessings to you.

 

[Spockrates]

I would need more information to determine causality.
Did he feel sorry for you?
Did he owe you money?
Did you contract some kind of service in exchange for cash.
Did you give him some kind of commodity?
Are you a politician in a place of power?
Are you a cop who just gave him a ticket?
Do you have a gun?

Yes! That's exactly the answer I was hoping to receive from our forum friend. So giving something to someone does not necessitate that the thing given is a gift. It might very well be a payment or reward.

So Thiscrosshurts, perhaps you would like to help me continue a little further on my journey toward the truth about faith? If so, then please tell me what you think of these two passages:

Hebrews 12:2. "...Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith".

Romans 12:3. " ... God has allotted to each a measure of faith.”

In both cases it speaks of God giving people faith. Would you say the words quoted make it certain that such faith is a gift? Or would you say, as you said of the $100.00 I received, that you would need more information before you could definitively say it is gift and not a reward?

 

[RJ]

Yes, sorry for misunderstanding you, and for trying your patience. Socrates said of himself, "I have, it seems a tedious way of asking a simple question." I suppose I have the same. Thank you so much for sticking with me as long as you did. I suppose someday I'll find the truth about the scripture you quoted. Blessings to you.

Socrates was a Polytheist, believing in many Greek Gods; I would be careful in quoting him with anything to do with spiritual matters!

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

In both cases it speaks of God giving people faith. Would you say the words quoted make it certain that such faith is a gift? Or would you say, as you said of the $100.00 I received, that you would need more information before you could definitively say it is gift and not a reward?

Yes.I feel there is not enough information to form an opinion.
I have not read what you were discussing with the others so I can see many options, connections and possibilities at this point.

 

[RJ]

In both cases it speaks of God giving people faith. Would you say the words quoted make it certain that such faith is a gift? Or would you say, as you said of the $100.00 I received, that you would need more information before you could definitively say it is gift and not a reward?

This sort of statement mocks God and His concept of Grace to man and His concept of Grace being a gift and His entire New Covenant!!!!!

 

[Johnlove]

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do" Ephesians 2:8-10
" For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you." Romans 12 :3

It is pretty simple, but many just can't see it for some reason!

• Grace is Gods' gift.
• Faith is another gift from God.
• Faith is by God's Grace alone.
• God's Grace existed before we did or our Faith.
• We are saved by Gods' Grace Alone.

I believe saved only means one will not go to hell.


Nowhere in scripture does it say one who is saved will go to heaven.


To go to Heaven one has to do what Jesus told us to do. Only those who through the Holy Spirit, and the grace given to him or her by the Holy Spirit, will be able to go to Heaven with Jesus.



(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”

 

[RJ]

I believe saved only means one will not go to hell.

OK, if you are saved, where is it you go Johnlove?

 

[Johnlove]

OK, if you are saved, where is it you go Johnlove?

Scripture does not say, but Hebrews gives us a clue.


(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. -------------“


You see people who have been given the knowledge of the truth have proclaimed Jesus name, and have been baptized in his name.


They were saved but are not going to heaven.



Salvation may be a free gift, but Jesus told us what it takes to go with him to heaven, and he is not giving out free passes.


(Matthew 7:21-23) “It is not those who say to me, ‘Lord, Lord’, who will enter the kingdom of Heaven but the person who does the will of My Father in Heaven. When the day comes many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, cast out demons in your name, work many miracles in your name?’ Then I shall tell them to their faces: I have never known you; away from me, you evil men!”


Also the people in the above scripture proclaimed Jesus’ name, and is that not all scripture says one has to do to be saved?

 

[norapture]

John if there was a tree, which we will call Christ.
And this tree had natural branches, but theses branches , did not won't to produce , any fruit.
So some guy , who we will call
God, was over this tree.
And because these natural
branches , didn't bare fruit he cut
them off ,and cast them in a fire and burn them.
And he takes , some wild
branches, that's no good to start
with.
So he decides that he will grath,
these wild branches in , to see if he
can get them to bare fruit.
And some do bare fruit,some 30
percent, some 60 percent, and
some even 100 percent.
But not all the branches , he
grafted in brought forth fruit.
Now he cut off the natural
branches, because they did not
bare fruit.
If this guy is a good, and honesty
man, and is not respect of persons
What do you believe he will do to
the wild branches, that don't bare fruit?

 

[Dovegiven]

Dovegiven: Thanks for joining the conversation. I agree a paycheck is not a gift, but do you think a bonus check should never be considered a gift? Regarding a paycheck being a reward, please consider this: If two people are doing the same job for the same employer and one of them makes twice as much pay as the other, doesn't that mean one is being rewarded more than the other?

I'm a businessman, have been for decades. I sit or stand at the computer, the desk piled too high for usefulness, on the phone all day and into the night (80+ hours daily except Sunday and ministry), letting others do the field work I did for 30 years, asking 40 hours a week of employees. As for me, any "bonus" is what I consider to be what is owed for work over and above the required, after applying overtime pay. I pay minimum wage for all new employees, sometimes only for a day if they are in fact experienced. Anyone, no matter what the resume' indicates, that won't be willing to start at that for day one is not a candidate for us. As soon as they demonstrate ability to do their job well, they are paid double that, then upward as expertise and productivity increases, and training costs become good business investments. A gift to an employee is like giving each $1,000 for Christmas regardless of pay scale, or helping one with a sudden unexpected expense that workman's comp doesn't cover.

A gift is a gift. Paying a workman what he deserves is not a gift, but returning what is owed.

 

[RJ]

Also the people in the above scripture proclaimed Jesus’ name, and is that not all scripture says one has to do to be saved?

Here is just a few!

• Romans 10:13 - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
• John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
• 1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
• Ephesians 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith
• Romans 10:9 - If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
• Acts 16:31 - They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."
• Romans 10:10 - For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
• 1 John 4:15 - If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God

 

[Johnlove]

Here is just a few!

• Romans 10:13 - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
• John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
• 1 John 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
• Ephesians 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith
• Romans 10:9 - If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
• Acts 16:31 - They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household."
• Romans 10:10 - For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
• 1 John 4:15 - If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God

When John says one is believing in Jesus, he is saying that one needs to be in Jesus to believe.


You need to read what John says about being in Jesus, or Jesus being in him or her.


(1 John 2:6) “But if anyone obeys his word, God’s love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did”


John says this is how we know we are in him. One who sin can’t believe in Jesus, because they are not living as Jesus lived.


(1 John 3:9) “No one who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”


Here John says God is in one who does not sin. So Children of God are in God, and God is in them.


(1 John 3: 5 - 6) “Now you know that He appeared in order to abolish sin, and that in Him there is no sin; anyone who lives in God does not sin, and anyone who sins has never seen Him or known Him.”


Here John says if one sins they don’t even know God. One can’t believe in someone they do not even know.


(John 14: 23) “Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”


Jesus told us what one needs to do to have God be in them. Keeping God’s Word includes not sinning.


The reason my argument does not make sense to most people, is because to understand God’s Word and come to know God his or her teacher needs to be God.


(1 Corinthians 2:10-13) “These are the very things that God has revealed to us through the Spirit, for the Spirit reaches the depts. Of everything, even the depths of God. After all, the depths of a man can only be known by his own spirit, not by any other man, and in the same way the depths of God can only be known by the Spirit of God”

 

[Johnlove]

John if there was a tree, which we will call Christ.
And this tree had natural branches, but theses branches , did not won't to produce , any fruit.
So some guy , who we will call
God, was over this tree.
And because these natural
branches , didn't bare fruit he cut
them off ,and cast them in a fire and burn them.
And he takes , some wild
branches, that's no good to start
with.
So he decides that he will grath,
these wild branches in , to see if he
can get them to bare fruit.
And some do bare fruit,some 30
percent, some 60 percent, and
some even 100 percent.
But not all the branches , he
grafted in brought forth fruit.
Now he cut off the natural
branches, because they did not
bare fruit.
If this guy is a good, and honesty
man, and is not respect of persons
What do you believe he will do to
the wild branches, that don't bare fruit?

(John 15:4-14) “Remain in me, as I in you. As a branch cannot bear fruit all by itself, unless it remains part of the vine, neither can you unless you remain in me. I am the vine, you are the branches. Whoever remains in me, with me in him, bears fruit in plenty; for cut off from me you can do nothing. Anyone who does not remain in me is thrown away like a branch -- and withers; these branches are collected and thrown on the fire and are burnt. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, you may ask for whatever you please and you will get it. It is to the glory of my Father that you should bear much fruit and be my disciples. I have loved you just as the Father has loved me. Remain in my love. If you keep my commandments you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and remain in his love. I have told you this so that my own joy may be in you and your joy be complete. This is my commandment: love one another, as I have loved you. No one can have greater love than to lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends, if you do what I command you.”


Did Jesus say where that fire is? If one believes it is Hell then is that not only an assumption?

 

[Spockrates]

Socrates was a Polytheist, believing in many Greek Gods; I would be careful in quoting him with anything to do with spiritual matters!

So you disagree with Socrates?

I am called wise, for my hearers always imagine that I myself possess the wisdom which I find wanting in others. But the truth is, O men of Athens, that God only is wise, and...the wisdom of men is little or nothing!

(Apology)

 

[Spockrates]

This sort of statement mocks God and His concept of Grace to man and His concept of Grace being a gift and His entire New Covenant!!!!!

Why do you say that?