Tongues

[TaylorDonBarret]

those people who thought they were drunk are probably those didn't hear anything but gibberish.

my idea of tongues is that sounds are spoken - not a real language - and The Holy Spirit then manipulates the sound waves in flight so that the intended target hears a language they know.

you know, one person speaks in tongues - but 10 people hear that person , each person hearing their own language. the original message in tongues wasnt in any particular language (or maybe it is a language of angels and unknown to man) - but it was converted into the native tongues of each of those who were blessed to receive it.

the ones who thought they were drunk... maybe they werent blessed to have received it

 

[Grace]

those people who thought they were drunk are probably those didn't hear anything but gibberish.

my idea of tongues is that sounds are spoken - not a real language - and The Holy Spirit then manipulates the sound waves in flight so that the intended target hears a language they know.

you know, one person speaks in tongues - but 10 people hear that person , each person hearing their own language. the original message in tongues wasnt in any particular language (or maybe it is a language of angels and unknown to man) - but it was converted into the native tongues of each of those who were blessed to receive it.

the ones who thought they were drunk... maybe they werent blessed to have received it

Possible! Tongues sounds foolish to many people. It even feels foolish to our own minds when we start...because we can not understand it ourselves. We have to trust (have faith) in the one who is doing the praying (Holy Spirit) through us.

I like that Peter corrected them in Acts 2:14-16.

 

[Grace]

I can think of many benefits of speaking in tongues..
#1- It spiritually builds us up. (Jude 1:20-21).
#2-It is a method God uses to edify us.(1 Cor. 14:4)
#3-Our intercessory prayers are unlimited! We are able to pray for things known only to the Holy Spirit (mysteries). (Rom. 8:26-27).

We should never elevate speaking in tongues to a place of false importance. But just because it is mentioned as a "lesser" gift...we should not throw it away either.
Everyone will have to make up their own mind to what they believe concerning tongues.

 

[Dovegiven]

That is right, there were no interpreters because tongues were spoken in native tongues of those there. SO, what is your point about what Paul said about the use of Tongues?

Paul said no it is not a good thing unless everyone knows what is being said...you are ignoring what Paul said about tongues.

It is not a "hissy-fit" when it is in opposition to what the Bible says is not appropriate and done in churches all the time. I consider myself a Charismatic because of my love to look at things from a spiritual perspective. As a result I have tried Charismatic churches in my past. Each time, many people were speaking tongues I guess. I say, I guess, because at no time was an interpretation offered. I once even asked a person what they were saying and got no response. I was eventually told that I didn't have the gift of tongues and the necessary faith to understand! I am sure they were right!

1 Corinthians 12:10-11 (KJV) 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

I put that up do show there are different kinds of tongues, such as praying in tongues, like Paul did with and without understanding, and prophesy in tongues requiring interpretation.

1 Corinthians 14:5 (KJV) 5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

The way I look at that is if you prophesy in a known language, everyone benefits. Next, prophesying in unknown tongues is apparently equal to prophesy if it is interpreted. But for the majority of folks that isn't to be, only "some" being given such gifts as the Lord wills.
Paul wished everyone speak in tongues. That's better than not opening the mouth for God. Most don't know enough Bible to have confidence to deliver a message for all to understand. I believe it is fine with God for each of us to be edified in the Spirit however that comes, as any edification is good. It's also common that in many congregations there are people incapable of being edified, dead folks walking. So what would be wrong with the majority of people being edified even when a newbie launches out with tongues, with or without an interpreter, when that congregation is accustomed to frequent tongues? Many places rarely have a visitor anyway, there being none to offend by many tongues.

So it is with Paul "I'd rather" it happen the way he prescribed, do it all to edification. How much non-edification is OK among defiant visitors? Congregations these days are filled with people that would be better off yielding their mouth to tongues with or without interpretation rather than to be set on prophesying against themselves day after day in their own known tongue, speaking curses over their kids, fears abounding, failures every day, kicking the car, kicking the dog out of frustration. Talk to God, even if nobody understands that conversation.

Now to your comment. Is it possible everyone hearing a message in tongues can be contacted by the Holy Spirit with a message just for each person, at least by thoughts? Again, if the congregation experiences that, then why should they forsake such experiences, conforming to what a visitor expects? That's more likely to happen in a Pentecostal denomination, but among the "charismatic" churches tongues isn't much emphasized, the former elders that engaged now gone, the young er "working on it". Many of the charismatics have combined into non-denominational made up of many denominations, so that has had a dampening effect on tongues.

 

[RJ]

Did you consider my reference to the 120 disciples at Pentecost? All spoke in unknown tongues to thousands of feast attendees right at the Temple. There were no interpreters, yet the hearers understood those tongues in every dialect represented there

• No, that is because you misuse scripture to support you theology and agenda because, the miracle of tongues at Pentecost was that those who spoke them did not know the language but those who heard understood them in their own language. They DID NOT speak in unknown tongues as you say! So,what you say is a false teaching!
• Acts 2: 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?
• Act 2: 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!"
• I go by what Paul preached about tongues and the need to edify the church and not one's self.

 

[Travis]

I go by what Paul preached about tongues...

Me too,

[1Co 14:2-4 KJV] 2 For he that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth [him]; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. 3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men [to] edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4 He that speaketh in an [unknown] tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

 

[TaylorDonBarret]

• No, that is because you misuse scripture to support you theology and agenda because, the miracle of tongues at Pentecost was that those who spoke them did not know the language but those who heard understood them in their own language. They DID NOT speak in unknown tongues as you say! So,what you say is a false teaching!
• Acts 2: 8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?
• Act 2: 11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!"
• I go by what Paul preached about tongues and the need to edify the church and not one's self.

If only 12 men were speaking in tongues, and more than 12 languages were heard .... then it would seem that the apostles were not each speaking a single language, but each apostle was speaking more than one language at one time. Or, possibly, each apostle was speaking in an angelic tongue unknown to humans which has the capability to be heard by anyone no matter what language they speak or dont speak.

i would think that angels can understand human language, no matter what the language, without the need to actually "know" the language. a sort of spiritual communication where the actual content of the sound doesnt matter. But then what kind of verbal communication would angels use to communicate? an unknown tongue that humans would think sounds like gibberish? unless of course The Holy Spirit makes it known to us.

 

[B-A-C]

Just as a side note...

Acts 1:15; At this time Peter stood up in the midst of the brethren (a gathering of about one hundred and twenty persons was there together), and said,
Acts 2:1; When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place.
Acts 2:2; And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
Acts 2:3; And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.
Acts 2:4; And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

There were about 120 people in the upper room.
However in Acts 19:7; ...

Acts 19:1; It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples.
Acts 19:2; He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
Acts 19:3; And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."
Acts 19:4; Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
Acts 19:5; When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 19:6; And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
Acts 19:7; There were in all about twelve men.

... there were "about" 12 men here. (maybe 11?)

In the case of Acts 10, we don't know exactly how many friends and family Cornelius had.

Acts 10:24; On the following day he entered Caesarea. Now Cornelius was waiting for them and had called together his relatives and close friends.
Acts 10:44; While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message

But it sounds like it could have been a crowd.

 

[B-A-C]

If we count the 120 in the upper room, (which included 11 of the apostles and Mary as well as 108 other people)
and the 12 disciples at Ephesus, and Cornelius and lets say at least two family members and two friends, we have at
least 137 people who spoke in tongues when they received the Holy Spirit.

We don't now for sure if Paul spoke in tongues immediately when he received the Holy Spirit ( Acts 9:17; )
but if not, he certainly made up for it later. ( 1 Cor 14:18; ) although, I personally think he likely did because it would be consistent with the other
three instances. (the upper room, the disciples at Ephesus, and Cornelius and his family) so that makes at least 138 people who received the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues.

The question I would ask here is... Is there anyone who received the Holy Spirit after Jesus ascended back into heaven, who did NOT speak in tongues? (at least when they first received it)
===============================================================================================

1 Cor 14:17; For you are giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not edified.
1 Cor 14:18; I thank God, I speak in tongues more than you all;
1 Cor 14:19; however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.
1 Cor 14:20; Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature.
1 Cor 14:21; In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord.
1 Cor 14:22; So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.

Paul makes the statement that not everything edifies other people. He doesn't say it's wrong, he simply is making a statement.
He then says he speaks in tongues more than everyone else.
He continues on with.. "however in the church" .. which leads to the obvious conclusion that he doesn't always speak in tongues in the church.

One other point here is that I don't think I've seen tongues spoken out loud to a congregation, where there weren't at least a few unbelievers. (see verse 22 above)

 

[RJ]

If only 12 men were speaking in tongues, and more than 12 languages were heard .... then it would seem that the apostles were not each speaking a single language, but each apostle was speaking more than one language at one time. Or, possibly, each apostle was speaking in an angelic tongue unknown to humans which has the capability to be heard by anyone no matter what language they speak or dont speak.

i would think that angels can understand human language, no matter what the language, without the need to actually "know" the language. a sort of spiritual communication where the actual content of the sound doesnt matter. But then what kind of verbal communication would angels use to communicate? an unknown tongue that humans would think sounds like gibberish? unless of course The Holy Spirit makes it known to us.

The whole point with the discussion of tongues at Pentecost again, is found in Acts 2:8 and Acts 2:11:

• The tongues spoken were, in fact, spoken in the actual language of those hearing.
• It was not in some mysterious language of God that NO one knew, but in their native tongue.
• There was no mentioning of interpreters because, as the scripture says: " we heard them speak the wonders of God in our own language!"
• That is what was done here in ACTS and had nothing to do with what Paul said in the Corinth church!

 

[RJ]

Or, possibly, each apostle was speaking in an angelic tongue unknown to humans which has the capability to be heard by anyone no matter what language they speak or dont speak.

That is not what ACTs 2: 8 and Acts 2: 11 say!

 

[RJ]

Possible! Tongues sounds foolish to many people. It even feels foolish to our own minds when we start...because we can not understand it ourselves. We have to trust (have faith) in the one who is doing the praying (Holy Spirit) through us.

It even feels foolish to our own minds when we start

We are not talking about your experiences only:

• The tongues at Pentecost, has nothing to do with your own exposure. The tongues spoken that day were done only in the native tongue of many there.
• The tongues you are exposed to, Paul requires you to have an interpreter and to do it only to edify the church or he rather you just prophesy to the church.

 

[RJ]

the ones who thought they were drunk... maybe they werent blessed to have received it

This indicates that there were some there that the tongues were not in their own language and they were confused. This why Paul requires full interpretation to edify anyone hearing the tongue .

 

[Grace]

We are not talking about your experiences only:

• The tongues at Pentecost, has nothing to do with your own exposure. The tongues spoken that day were done only in the native tongue of many there.
• The tongues you are exposed to, Paul requires you to have an interpreter and to do it only to edify the church or he rather you just prophesy to the church.

I hate that you have read this whole thread and feel that I was only sharing my experience. I backed up everything I posted with scriptures.
As far as the "tongues I am exposed to" as you put it... is from the Holy Spirit, a gift from God!
Your opinion and interpretation of the scriptures has been noted several times in this thread. We disagree on having to have an interpreter when we pray in the spirit in private.

 

[Grace]

This indicates that there were some there that the tongues were not in their own language and they were confused. This why Paul requires full interpretation to edify anyone hearing the tongue .

Curious why there was not an interpreter to help those people that did not understand in their own language?!?

 

[RJ]

We disagree on having to have an interpreter when we pray in the spirit in private

Hmmm, never said that! In fact, I said I am not concerned with what you do in private!

 

[Grace]

Hmmm, never said that! In fact, I said I am not concerned with what you do in private!

• The tongues you are exposed to, Paul requires you to have an interpreter and to do it only to edify the church or he rather you just prophesy to the church.

The tongues I am exposed to is private prayer!

 

[RJ]

Curious why there was not an interpreter to help those people that did not understand in their own language?!?

Hmm, can't answer that but it still doesn't negate what Paul stated some 27-28 years after Pentecost! Possibly, God spoke to Paul because there were those at Pentecost that didn't understand. There is nothing at Pentecost to indicate that the tongues was done to edify the church like it does when Paul addressed the church of Corinth.

 

[Grace]

Hmm, can't answer that but it still doesn't negate what Paul stated some 27-28 years after Pentecost! Possibly, God spoke to Paul because there were those at Pentecost that didn't understand. There is nothing at Pentecost to indicate that the tongues was done to edify the church like it does when Paul addressed the church of Corinth.

My point from the beginning of the thread. We can not put the same rules on all expression of tongues! If we do not understand the different kinds of tongues, then scriptures can come across confusing.

 

[RJ]

We can not put the same rules on all expression of tongues!

With all due respect, Tongues is a gift from God and it is he not "we" who makes the rules!