RJ
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Tongues
- Thread starter Grace
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On the Day of Pentecost these languages are understood by many that were gathering. Some mocked?!? I see this expressiong of tongues as only one of many uses by the Holy Spirit.
I Acts 10 when the Holy Spirit was given to the Gentiles they also spoke in tongues just as the Jewish group did. Scriptures do not say that they were known languages. Peter preached to them in a known tongue, the Gentiles were not preaching in tongues.
Some teach that tongues are to evangalize the unbelieving Jews but in this case the Gentiles are also included in its use. In the Gentiles case it was to show the Jews that they had received the Holy Spirit.
One common thing that I see in these two cases..."we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God" "Magnifying God. So tongues enables us to praise, extol and glorify (magnify) God.
Tongues goes far beyond a one time purpose that God used to set up the church...and then discontinued.
I Acts 10 when the Holy Spirit was given to the Gentiles they also spoke in tongues just as the Jewish group did. Scriptures do not say that they were known languages. Peter preached to them in a known tongue, the Gentiles were not preaching in tongues.
Some teach that tongues are to evangalize the unbelieving Jews but in this case the Gentiles are also included in its use. In the Gentiles case it was to show the Jews that they had received the Holy Spirit.
One common thing that I see in these two cases..."we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God" "Magnifying God. So tongues enables us to praise, extol and glorify (magnify) God.
Tongues goes far beyond a one time purpose that God used to set up the church...and then discontinued.
RJ
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I would say that is so true, as long as you are not just edifying yourself. You can't edify the unbeliever unless he knows what you are saying and by those with the gift to interpret!
Again one of the primary ways the Holy Spirit uses tongues (from his position inside us) to glorify and praise God in a way that can't be achieved through natural methods. In John 16:13-14 it shows us how the Holy Spirits will glorify God and show it to us. I think it is a perfect praise to God, sacred ministry of worship to our heavenly Father.
1 Corinthians 14 shows us how to operate in this gift and it's boundaries of its operation. This chapter can be very confusing to us if we do not understand the various reasons for speaking in tongues ( It did me for years).
Evidence of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:1-4; Acts 10:45, Acts 19:1-6). I am not saying that speaking in tongues are the only evidence, but these verses show that tongues were the evidence in this situation.
A sign to the unbeliever (1 Cor. 14:22)
A ministry of the Holy Spirit to express worship...to magnify and extol God (Acts 2:8-10; Acts 10:45-46)
A public ministry gift used to communicate a message from God through an interpreter "when ye come together" or "the public gathering of the church" (1 Cor. 14:14-17)
Praying in tongues..singing with the spirit used in prayer and worship to God (1 Cor. 14:14-17).
Blessing in tongues..or blessing in the Spirit (1 Cor. 14:14-17).
Paul taught two areas for the use of tongues in the life of a Christian. Each one has different rules that govern it.
1 Corinthians 14 shows us how to operate in this gift and it's boundaries of its operation. This chapter can be very confusing to us if we do not understand the various reasons for speaking in tongues ( It did me for years).
Evidence of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:1-4; Acts 10:45, Acts 19:1-6). I am not saying that speaking in tongues are the only evidence, but these verses show that tongues were the evidence in this situation.
A sign to the unbeliever (1 Cor. 14:22)
A ministry of the Holy Spirit to express worship...to magnify and extol God (Acts 2:8-10; Acts 10:45-46)
A public ministry gift used to communicate a message from God through an interpreter "when ye come together" or "the public gathering of the church" (1 Cor. 14:14-17)
Praying in tongues..singing with the spirit used in prayer and worship to God (1 Cor. 14:14-17).
Blessing in tongues..or blessing in the Spirit (1 Cor. 14:14-17).
Paul taught two areas for the use of tongues in the life of a Christian. Each one has different rules that govern it.
1 Corinthians 12:28-30 is plain that not every believer is called by God to operate...
In the public ministry of tongues
In the public ministry of an apostle
In the public ministry of a prophet
In the public ministry of a teacher
In the public ministry of working miracles
In the public ministry of healing
Paul's statement, "do all speak with tongues" and "do all interpret" must be kept within the context of the public ministry of the Church. Attempting to apply these statements outside their context leads to confusion and error. The answer is NO! Not everyone is called in the ministry of these mentioned. The phrase "IN THE CHURCH" is there for a good reason.
In the public ministry of tongues
In the public ministry of an apostle
In the public ministry of a prophet
In the public ministry of a teacher
In the public ministry of working miracles
In the public ministry of healing
Paul's statement, "do all speak with tongues" and "do all interpret" must be kept within the context of the public ministry of the Church. Attempting to apply these statements outside their context leads to confusion and error. The answer is NO! Not everyone is called in the ministry of these mentioned. The phrase "IN THE CHURCH" is there for a good reason.
"For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also." (1 Cor. 14:14-15)
Paul calls tongues..praying in tongues or praying with the spirit (Pauls own words). Some christians refer to it as a spiritual language. I do not see where that description contradicts Paul's definition.
Paul calls tongues..praying in tongues or praying with the spirit (Pauls own words). Some christians refer to it as a spiritual language. I do not see where that description contradicts Paul's definition.
Personal prayer life represents one of the most important aspects of speaking in tongues. It is not restricted to having an interpreter present, as in the public gift, because an interpreter is not needed in this case. It's part of the "Intercessory Prayer Ministry" of the Holy Spirit and it's not to be confused with the public ministry gift.
RJ
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- So personal prayer, just you and no one else, right?
- So during this during personal prayer time, you speak in tongues correct? And do you know what you're saying in the tongues?
B-A-C
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Most Pentecostals would say they don't know what they are saying in that type of prayer.
1 Cor 14:14; For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.
1 Cor 14:15; What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
Rom 8:26; In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words;
Rom 8:27; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.
The way I've heard it explained is we are making the sounds, and the Spirit gives us the sounds to make.
Travis
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See, I guess I've just never really seen the correlation between tongues and Romans 8:26. Idk, I guess it could be there, I just sure don't see it.
I'm not a pentecostal, but I do think tongues are still quite applicable to today. Which is ironic because I hang around a lot of southern baptists.
Meh,
Travis
Do you believe that those speaking on the day of Pentecost, Acts 10 and 19 understood what they were saying?
"For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." (1 Cor. 14:2)
Praying in the spirit allows the Holy Spirit to use you as an instrument of spiritual prayer, which goes far beyand our knowledge or intellect. If it is the Holy Spirit doing the praying...then it is in His perfect will!
Another note....Why would you ask for an interpretation if you understood it?1 Cor. 14:13
RJ
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Sorry, you are using vs. 14 out of context with regard to Paul's entire discussion of tongues.
- Speak all you want in private but with anyone in hearing distance you better have an interpreter otherwise God says not to do it because you are not edifying the church....the church is any other Christian.
Dovegiven
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I went from So. Baptist to "charismatic", to Assembles of God with some Church of God association, to "current "non-denominational", maintaining great relationships. For years I was honored to fill in to preach and teach wherever I was invited, and still do when a church is without a pastor. Among the So. Baptists I know not to raise a hand high in praise when overcome by the Spirit while speaking. I know not to raise a hand while singing a hymn. I shall not offend by speaking in, or speaking of tongues there. So there I speak of the cross of Christ, which is always a welcome topic
In the Pentecostal churches, the old mainline UPC did in fact exhibit too much tongues spoken at once, everyone wanting to "prove" they were saved by doing so. It was really just a part of their worship and prayer time as a congregation. In the charismatic congregations it tended to be more tongues with interpretation than in the AOG. In the AOG I witnessed very little congregational tongues, occasionally one prophesy in tongues followed by one interpretation, as that is generally all they will allow. I've never spoke a message in tongues in church, but have many times received the same interpretation as what is next spoken.
In our non-denominational days I am witnessing more than one message, but each accompanied by interpretation. Pretty often it is in those minutes that the altar has some coming right then. People are positively touched upon hearing tongues, mostly those who have never heard anything negative or positive about it. I am persuaded that is an expression of 1 Corinthians 14:22 (KJV) 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
Now I have a comment about 1 Corinthians 14:14-15 (KJV) 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
That isn't necessarily a spiritual gift to be practiced in a church meeting. It is at least for me and many other believers a tool that can be used at home, in private, or maybe in that moment when a preacher runs out of words.We pull the microphone aside a moment, ask in tongues, then resume with a wealth of message from the Holy Spirit. I personally believe it is a confirmation to the speaker from the Lord that he is speaking spiritually, not a prepared statement. Far more response comes from "impromptu" preaching that way than to just string words together from memory.
My wife and I respond to alarming phone calls, or maybe TV news in a special way. The middle school popped up ion the news that it was on lockdown due to some gunshots in the neighborhood. We've learned not to jump in the car to rescue grands, as they can't leave the building anyway. If we tried we'd find hundreds of cars packed on every street leading there. Instead, we both pray in tongues, then have confidence in prayer with understanding. That always results in peace, and every incident has been an overreaction from law enforcement and/or school staff out of abundant caution. A dear friend called to say she was about to divorce after 44 years of marriage. My wife hung up, prayed in tongues, then had a special prayer. The woman called back a few minutes later apologizing for thinking that way.
That sort of thing is simply the way we live here. I was recently driving along about 70 on the expressway with a friend when a boy on a motorcycle sped by in a blur, cycle up on the rear wheel, passing everything in sight. My buddy said "We'll be picking his body parts up a mile down!" I chose to pray in tongues, then with understanding that the Lord would be merciful and spare him. We came upon the accident, the cycle having spun and slid under an 18 wheeler next to him, then off into the grass. The cycle was totaled, the boy walking away from it with but torn clothing. In my own understanding I might have chosen to pray that he not doe in an accident. In a matter of a few seconds we don't always have the best words of understanding to deal with a looming emergency. I would guess most cars he passed like that generated all sorts of curses, dire predictions, which need to be washed away by praying with the Spirit.
In the Pentecostal churches, the old mainline UPC did in fact exhibit too much tongues spoken at once, everyone wanting to "prove" they were saved by doing so. It was really just a part of their worship and prayer time as a congregation. In the charismatic congregations it tended to be more tongues with interpretation than in the AOG. In the AOG I witnessed very little congregational tongues, occasionally one prophesy in tongues followed by one interpretation, as that is generally all they will allow. I've never spoke a message in tongues in church, but have many times received the same interpretation as what is next spoken.
In our non-denominational days I am witnessing more than one message, but each accompanied by interpretation. Pretty often it is in those minutes that the altar has some coming right then. People are positively touched upon hearing tongues, mostly those who have never heard anything negative or positive about it. I am persuaded that is an expression of 1 Corinthians 14:22 (KJV) 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
Now I have a comment about 1 Corinthians 14:14-15 (KJV) 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
That isn't necessarily a spiritual gift to be practiced in a church meeting. It is at least for me and many other believers a tool that can be used at home, in private, or maybe in that moment when a preacher runs out of words.We pull the microphone aside a moment, ask in tongues, then resume with a wealth of message from the Holy Spirit. I personally believe it is a confirmation to the speaker from the Lord that he is speaking spiritually, not a prepared statement. Far more response comes from "impromptu" preaching that way than to just string words together from memory.
My wife and I respond to alarming phone calls, or maybe TV news in a special way. The middle school popped up ion the news that it was on lockdown due to some gunshots in the neighborhood. We've learned not to jump in the car to rescue grands, as they can't leave the building anyway. If we tried we'd find hundreds of cars packed on every street leading there. Instead, we both pray in tongues, then have confidence in prayer with understanding. That always results in peace, and every incident has been an overreaction from law enforcement and/or school staff out of abundant caution. A dear friend called to say she was about to divorce after 44 years of marriage. My wife hung up, prayed in tongues, then had a special prayer. The woman called back a few minutes later apologizing for thinking that way.
That sort of thing is simply the way we live here. I was recently driving along about 70 on the expressway with a friend when a boy on a motorcycle sped by in a blur, cycle up on the rear wheel, passing everything in sight. My buddy said "We'll be picking his body parts up a mile down!" I chose to pray in tongues, then with understanding that the Lord would be merciful and spare him. We came upon the accident, the cycle having spun and slid under an 18 wheeler next to him, then off into the grass. The cycle was totaled, the boy walking away from it with but torn clothing. In my own understanding I might have chosen to pray that he not doe in an accident. In a matter of a few seconds we don't always have the best words of understanding to deal with a looming emergency. I would guess most cars he passed like that generated all sorts of curses, dire predictions, which need to be washed away by praying with the Spirit.
Sorry, No I am not! It still says to pray for an interpretation! Why would he tell you to pray for an interpretation if you understood what you were saying?
Can you point out the interpreters in Acts 10 and 19? Look, I agree that in a gathering unless there is an interpretation to edify the body it is out of order. But you ask if I understood what I was saying when I was praying in the spirit.
Can all believers speak in tongues?
Acts 2:2-4 clearly says that the entire group of 120 were filled with the Holy Spirit and all spoke in tongues. Acts 19:1-7 suggests that all 12 men spoke in tongues and prophesied. Acts 10 also suggests that they all spoke in tongues.
Do you suppose that it is false teaching that hinders some from speaking in tongues...which creates unbelief?
Mark 16:17-18 says that speaking with new tongues would follow the believers.
Acts 2:2-4 clearly says that the entire group of 120 were filled with the Holy Spirit and all spoke in tongues. Acts 19:1-7 suggests that all 12 men spoke in tongues and prophesied. Acts 10 also suggests that they all spoke in tongues.
Do you suppose that it is false teaching that hinders some from speaking in tongues...which creates unbelief?
Mark 16:17-18 says that speaking with new tongues would follow the believers.
Dovegiven
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Allow me to help with understanding by way of scriptures and actual exercise of them. I've learned that probably most Christians have had no first hand experience with tongues, as well as most other spiritual gifts designed for congregations to experience in a worship service. As it was for me my Baptist years, it was easy to accept teaching that all that passed away when the last apostle died. Over time I began going past just reading
1 Corinthians 13:8 (KJV) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
It appears we have agreement here that tongues has not ceased, like knowledge hasn't, neither prophecy nor love. All of those are in operation today. The common disagreement now expressed here seems to be around the use of tongues in public without an interpretation. Well, the scriptures require either the tongues speaker pray for understanding then speak that, or let someone else interpret. If there is no interpreter then the pastor ought to gently point that out, moving on to a hymn, sing in tongues from the pulpit, or quite often deliver an interpretation of that too. Eventually he/she will know who has that gift, and those who should not "try it out". Most congregations that use that gift have one or two people that are spiritually mature elders that speak it, and one or two who have the gift of interpretation.
An exception that is scriptural, and that is congregational praise and worship singing. I could not estimate how many times we would be singing a hymn from a book or on a screen, when the Holy Spirit manifested in remarkable ways. I have always been very practical, when preaching, sticking to the Bible with minimum discussion, ready to teach or preach without notice, but I have never exercised the gift of tongues prophesy, but have received the understanding, yet not contribute it. But then came my first of many times to join in with the whole congregation singing in tongues, each person "on their own". The result is always an extended time of worship like at the dedication of Solomon's Temple, but without of course that dramatic entry of God into it. It's very liberating to find your self face down on the carpet, full of unspeakable joy. There is no interpretation possible or necessary. Here's why.
Acts 2:6-8 (KJV)
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
I believe there might be too much emphasis on the speaking of unknown tongues, that is, the words, the sounds when the major thing is what people hear of that. One speaks in what might sound like mad gibberish, but while that is happening, the Spirit speaks a message directly to a hearer, in whatever language they know. That's what happened at Pentecost. 120 disciples were not all vocalizing the same in unison, words not possibly matching or according to a known language. There were thousands of hearers present (3,000 saved that day), each hearing them speak of the wonderful works of God in their own dialects of their home nations. The miracle was, as I see it, in the hearing. Each hearer had no interpreter but the Holy Spirit. That happened again a few times later with Peter and Paul on a much smaller scale. I note also there is no mention that anyone was offended due to lack of interpretations. Nobody needed that! And I note none of them listening are said to have been Christians yet, having only attended the Jewish feast.
The amazement of that doubtless helped the hearers seek faith to believe, then to ask Peter what they should do. I've seen thousands of people over the past decades do the same upon hearing congregational singing in tongues, which is a beautiful sound like that of harps. Visitors fill the altar area, and eventually everyone is there praising and worshiping. That experiences both edifies each person, but is a sign to the unbelievers that it is time to believe. At home we sing in tongues often, mostly my wife singing to me, each of us edified greatly daily
That's why Paul admonished not to forbid to speak in tongues. The Lord uses that to reach the most stubborn of souls, and that quite suddenly.
1 Corinthians 13:8 (KJV) Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
It appears we have agreement here that tongues has not ceased, like knowledge hasn't, neither prophecy nor love. All of those are in operation today. The common disagreement now expressed here seems to be around the use of tongues in public without an interpretation. Well, the scriptures require either the tongues speaker pray for understanding then speak that, or let someone else interpret. If there is no interpreter then the pastor ought to gently point that out, moving on to a hymn, sing in tongues from the pulpit, or quite often deliver an interpretation of that too. Eventually he/she will know who has that gift, and those who should not "try it out". Most congregations that use that gift have one or two people that are spiritually mature elders that speak it, and one or two who have the gift of interpretation.
An exception that is scriptural, and that is congregational praise and worship singing. I could not estimate how many times we would be singing a hymn from a book or on a screen, when the Holy Spirit manifested in remarkable ways. I have always been very practical, when preaching, sticking to the Bible with minimum discussion, ready to teach or preach without notice, but I have never exercised the gift of tongues prophesy, but have received the understanding, yet not contribute it. But then came my first of many times to join in with the whole congregation singing in tongues, each person "on their own". The result is always an extended time of worship like at the dedication of Solomon's Temple, but without of course that dramatic entry of God into it. It's very liberating to find your self face down on the carpet, full of unspeakable joy. There is no interpretation possible or necessary. Here's why.
Acts 2:6-8 (KJV)
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
I believe there might be too much emphasis on the speaking of unknown tongues, that is, the words, the sounds when the major thing is what people hear of that. One speaks in what might sound like mad gibberish, but while that is happening, the Spirit speaks a message directly to a hearer, in whatever language they know. That's what happened at Pentecost. 120 disciples were not all vocalizing the same in unison, words not possibly matching or according to a known language. There were thousands of hearers present (3,000 saved that day), each hearing them speak of the wonderful works of God in their own dialects of their home nations. The miracle was, as I see it, in the hearing. Each hearer had no interpreter but the Holy Spirit. That happened again a few times later with Peter and Paul on a much smaller scale. I note also there is no mention that anyone was offended due to lack of interpretations. Nobody needed that! And I note none of them listening are said to have been Christians yet, having only attended the Jewish feast.
The amazement of that doubtless helped the hearers seek faith to believe, then to ask Peter what they should do. I've seen thousands of people over the past decades do the same upon hearing congregational singing in tongues, which is a beautiful sound like that of harps. Visitors fill the altar area, and eventually everyone is there praising and worshiping. That experiences both edifies each person, but is a sign to the unbelievers that it is time to believe. At home we sing in tongues often, mostly my wife singing to me, each of us edified greatly daily
That's why Paul admonished not to forbid to speak in tongues. The Lord uses that to reach the most stubborn of souls, and that quite suddenly.
RJ
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That is fine, so you pray for interpretation for each of these prayers and you get it, right?
Look, I agree that tongues is definitely one of God's spiritual gifts, but I stand by the point that , anytime, with out interpretation, no matter when it is done, it is not edifying the church, which includes you!
Travis
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If tongues is not interpreted, then it is not edifying to the church. That's correct. But, we shouldn't throw a hissy fit if once in a while someone speaks in tongues in the church or there is someone who thinks they are supposed to give a message in tongues and none one gets an interpretation. People make mistakes, and we should give them room to grow and learn, I don't think we should castigate people for trying to operate in the gifts. Only that we should grow in wisdom and knowledge concerning them.
Blessings,
Travis
RJ
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It is not a "hissy-fit" when it is in opposition to what the Bible says is not appropriate and done in churches all the time. I consider myself a Charismatic because of my love to look at things from a spiritual perspective. As a result I have tried Charismatic churches in my past. Each time, many people were speaking tongues I guess. I say, I guess, because at no time was an interpretation offered. I once even asked a person what they were saying and got no response. I was eventually told that I didn't have the gift of tongues and the necessary faith to understand! I am sure they were right!
