Tribulation

[B-A-C]

The Bible says there will be tribulation. Tribulation is often translated as "trouble". Jesus says we will have troubles from time to time.

John 16:33; "These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

Of course this is different from "the tribulation" and the "great tribulation" spoken of in Revelation chapters 5 through 19.
These are often called the 7 trumpets, the seven woes, the seven bowls, and the seven peals of thunder.
Matthew chapter 24 also speaks of the tribulation. 1 Thes 5:3; 2 Thes 1:7-9; Daniel chapters 11 and 12 are often thought as an allegory to the events of the tribulation as well.

Some think the tribulation has already taken place, or we are currently living in it. But as of yet, there is no one world government.
We do not have to take a mark or our hands or foreheads to buy or sell anything. A loaf of bread does not quite cost a days wage yet.
A third of the sea has not become blood and a third of sea life has not died yet. I don't think we can pick out the man of perdition just yet, we all may
have some ideas of who this may be, but so far the world hasn't come together to worship one man yet. A third of mankind hasn't suddenly been killed.
There has been no great earthquake in Jerusalem since Jesus was crucified. There is no army of 200 million roaming the earth for the Lord right now.
Armageddon hasn't happened yet. A third of the trees and grass hasn't burned up yet. A third of the waters aren't poisoned yet and a third of mankind
hasn't died from drinking it.

I don't want to get into a debate about exactly when the rapture happens, because none of us know for sure. But whether it's before, in the middle, or after
the tribulation, the fact is.. it hasn't happened yet.

There is some beheading going on for the Christian faith right now. This is mostly going on in the middle east currently (ISIS comes to mind) and some
Christians in Africa as well. But it isn't going on a global scale yet. There are no flying scorpions or insects that have the power to sting for 6 months
currently flying around. Whoever the 2 witnesses may be (yet another debate no one knows the answer to) thy apparently aren't here yet because no
one has died in the streets and come back to life and gone up to heaven before our eyes.

You may think things are bad now, But it doesn't seem like any of this has really happened yet.

Also if these things had already taken place, wouldn't the New Jerusalem be here now? Wouldn't Christ be reigning over the world in peace right now?

 

[NoHype]

Lot of assumptions in that, when God gave His to know those things per His Word. The problem is not that many are listening to our Heavenly Father and His Son in His Word today, but have instead allowed men's doctrines to sway them away from it.

If the Bible student gets back to what the early 1st & 2nd century Church fathers understood, they will come a lot closer to what God's Word actually reveals about the very end. They understood a singular Antichrist entity is coming to set himself up as God in Jerusalem, and how the prophecies given Daniel relate to that timing of the end, and how our Lord Jesus was giving the signs of Revelation for the end in His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, and how the locust army of Rev.9 is actually about Antichrist's servants working during the great tribulation and not at Armageddon.

Jesus also revealed His second coming will be at the end of the great tribulation He spoke of, and that is the one-time gathering of His Church to Him to go to Jerusalem. This is also what the early Church fathers understood, and rightly so, because it is what is actually written, the many other doctrines being men's doctrines that were added in the Church by men in later centuries.

 

[Travis]

Hey B-A-C,

Honest question. What is the question or intent of your thread? Is it about whether or not we are in the great tribulation or not?

 

[Travis]

If the Bible student gets back to what the early 1st & 2nd century Church fathers understood, they will come a lot closer to what God's Word actually reveals about the very end. They understood a singular Antichrist entity is coming to set himself up as God in Jerusalem, and how the prophecies given Daniel relate to that timing of the end, and how our Lord Jesus was giving the signs of Revelation for the end in His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, and how the locust army of Rev.9 is actually about Antichrist's servants working during the great tribulation and not at Armageddon.

Where can I find what the early church fathers believed about eschatology? Specifically that is.

 

[NoHype]

Where can I find what the early church fathers believed about eschatology? Specifically that is.

Early Church Fathers - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

 

[Travis]

Early Church Fathers - Christian Classics Ethereal Library

Yes, I know who they were and where to access their writings. I have some of the early church fathers writings in my library. But, I mean, can you point to something more specific than that, that supports your theory? Like a certain author and a certain article or book he wrote? I don't really have the time to read through thousands of pages of text at the moment.

Travis

 

[NoHype]

If you have copies of their writings in your library, then you should already know what they held to. They even claimed per God's Word that the coming Antichrist will build the temple in Jerusalem for the end. If you have copies of their writings and didn't know that, then it means you haven't read their writings, even in your own library. What a pity.

 

[tulsa 2011]

The tribulation of Matthew 24: 29-30 is partly the threshing floor of Jeremiah 51: 33. "For thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; The daughter of Babylon is like a threshingfloor, it is time to thresh her: yet a little while, and the time of her harvest shall come." Jeremiah 51: 33

The threshing floor is where the wheat is separated from the chaff, the tares. In the threshing floor those who have come to the knowledge of the truth (I Timothy 2: 4, II Timothy 3: 7, III John 1: 4) are separated from those who have not come to that knowledge and resist the truth, though they may think they have been born again by procedures which do not change them from the state of the natural man to spiritually new creatures..

In the threshing floor, those deceived by the huge number of false prophets of Matthew 24: 11, II Peter 2: 1-3 and Revelation 9: 14-9, are separated from those not deceived, who come to the knowledge of the truth. Those who are deceived by the false prophets and their man made doctrines, are under the indignation of God of Isaiah 26: 20. This is a time after the falling away of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 begins in the modern timeline.

"Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15. The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining." Joel 3: 14-15

Toward the end of the age the conflict between the multitude and the remnant will be for many a valley of decision (Joel 3: 14).

Someone mentioned the one man anti-Christ of dispensationalism. The dispensationalists might agree that their anti-Christ figure has something to do with I John 2: 18-19 and I John 4:3. But in those two places it says even when John wrote there were many anti-Christs running around and that it is the spirit of anti-Christ which teaches that Jesus Christ did not appear in the flesh.

The dispensationalist one man super anti-Christ who appears to be some kind of political and military leader replaces the spirit of anti-Christ which is Biblical. Dispensationalists do not want to talk too much about a spirit of anti-Christ because the way that spirit is defined in I John 4: 3 leads to places they do not want to go - to the Little Horn of Daniel 7: 8 and to the head of the first beast in Revelation 13: 3 whose deadly wound was healed. In their honoring of Israel of the flesh, dispensationalists are honoring a people who by John's definition of the spirit of anti-Christ have that spirit. So the dispensationalists go off on the trail of their one man anti-Christ to draw attention away from their honoring of a people who have the spirit of anti-Christ.

The dispensationalists sometimes mix their single anti-Christ person with the False Prophets. The False Prophets and those with the spirit of anti-Christ are two different forces under the dragon. The False Prophets are defined in Matthew 24: 5. They agree that there is a Christ, but they deceive many in teaching doctrines that are not Christ's doctrines. On the other hand, the people under the spirit of anti-Christ totally reject Christ, and many of them are in the religion of Talmudic Judaism.

It is the False Prophets who teach people to honor (it says worship in Revelation 13: 12) the head of the first beast whose deadly wound was healed, which has the spirit of anti-Christ.

 

[Travis]

If you have copies of their writings in your library, then you should already know what they held to. They even claimed per God's Word that the coming Antichrist will build the temple in Jerusalem for the end. If you have copies of their writings and didn't know that, then it means you haven't read their writings, even in your own library. What a pity.

I was asking because I really want to know what you are talking about..... Thanks for making me look like a jerk though.

 

[Strypes]

If you have copies of their writings in your library, then you should already know what they held to. They even claimed per God's Word that the coming Antichrist will build the temple in Jerusalem for the end. If you have copies of their writings and didn't know that, then it means you haven't read their writings, even in your own library. What a pity.

NoHype,
There is no reason to be condescending and persnickety with our new young friend. I too have questions. Like where in the Bible does it say the Anti-Christ will build the temple? I have a Bible and I have read it and I do not recall any passage where the Anti-Christ builds the temple.

I was asking because I really want to know what you are talking about..... Thanks for making me look like a jerk though.

Travis,
Don't be discouraged.

John 16:33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”

 

[NoHype]

I was asking because I really want to know what you are talking about..... Thanks for making me look like a jerk though.

No intention of making you look like a jerk, my intention was to drive you towards further study on your own.

Does this sound like the early Church fathers, like Hippolytus understood the Antichrist to be some 'force' of many, or a specific individual that will accomplish the events as Apostle Paul describes in 2 Thess.2?...

Hippolytus

"Now as our Lord Jesus Christ, who is also God, was prophesied of under the figure of a lion, on account of his royalty and glory, in the same way have the scriptures also beforehand spoken of Antichrist as a lion, on account of his tyranny and violence. For the deceiver seeks to liken himself in all things to the Son of God. Christ is a lion, so Antichrist is also a lion. Christ is a king, so Antichrist is also a king. The Savior was manifested as a lamb, so he too in like manner will appear as a lamb without; within he is a wolf. The Savior came into the world in the circumcision [i.e., the Jewish race], and he will come in the same manner. . . . The Savior raised up and showed his holy flesh like a temple, and he will raise a temple of stone in Jerusalem" (The Antichrist 6 [A.D. 200]).


"[W]e find it written regarding Antichrist . . . ‘Dan is a lion’s whelp, and he shall leap from Bashan’ [Deut. 33:22]. But that no one may err by supposing that this is said of the Savior, let him attend carefully to the matter. Dan, he says, is a lion’s whelp. And in naming the tribe of Dan, he declared clearly the tribe from which Antichrist is destined to spring. For as Christ springs from the tribe of Judah, so Antichrist is to spring from the tribe of Dan. And that the case stands thus, we see also from the words of Jacob: ‘Let Dan be a serpent, lying upon the ground, biting the horse’s heel’ [Gen. 49:17]. What then is meant by the serpent but Antichrist, that deceiver who is mentioned in Genesis [Gen. 3:1], who deceived Eve and supplanted Adam? . . . t is in reality out of the tribe of Dan, then, that tyrant and king, that dread judge, that son of the devil, is destined to spring and arise" (ibid., 14).


"Above all, moreover, he will love the nation of the Jews. And with all these [Jews] he will work signs and terrible wonders, false wonders and not true, in order to deceive his impious equals. . . . And after that he will build the temple in Jerusalem and will restore it again speedily and give it over to the Jews" (Discourse on the End of the World 23-25 [A.D. 217]).

Where did Hippolytus get that interpretation about the coming singular Antichrist? From God's Word, because that's the actual subject of Scripture like 2 Thess.2 from Apostle Paul, and from our Lord Jesus in His Olivet Discourse warning about that coming false one (pseudochristos).

How does that compare with what many of today's Churches are teaching today? Will one just say those early Church fathers are 'outdated' with their interpretation of those events for the end, and that we now have more learned men to guide us on different interpretations of the Scriptures?

 

[NoHype]

Someone mentioned the one man anti-Christ of dispensationalism. The dispensationalists might agree that their anti-Christ figure has something to do with I John 2:18-19 and I John 4:3. But in those two places it says even when John wrote there were many anti-Christs running around and that it is the spirit of anti-Christ which teaches that Jesus Christ did not appear in the flesh.

Dispensationalism was a movement that first began in 1830's Great Britain, around 1,500 years AFTER the early Church fathers proclaimed a singular coming Antichrist to Jerusalem. That reveals you don't really understand what you're talking about when you speak against the idea of a singular Antichrist for the end as given in God's Word.

 

[NoHype]

NoHype,
There is no reason to be condescending and persnickety with our new young friend. I too have questions. Like where in the Bible does it say the Anti-Christ will build the temple? I have a Bible and I have read it and I do not recall any passage where the Anti-Christ builds the temple.

Being condescending and persnickety, continued then...

If you have believed on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ unto Salvation, then where in God's Holy Writ is your 'specific' name (insert your name here) written in Scripture showing that you are saved? Clearly, our names don't appear 'specifically' in God's Word, but we are assured of Christ's Salvation by His Promise according to our Faith on Him, and He has our names written in Heaven (that you cannot see today by the way).

Likewise with many prophecies in God's Word, He does not always make 'specific' statements as to who will manifest a prophecy, and especially in the case with the coming Antichrist, which is why the world has been searching the identity of that coming Antichrist since the prophecy was given. Those given to know will know, those who do not will wonder at the beast, like Christ said (through Apostle John in Revelation 13).

 

[Strypes]

Luke 10:17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. 18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. 19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

\O/



So there is no passage in the Bible that implies the Anti-Christ builds the temple.


Jesus is the Lamb of God and His sacrifice was perfect and complete.


When the third temple is built and the sacrifices resume, they will be in vain.

Tiz true.

 

[NoHype]

Uh, yes, there is Scripture written that 'implies' the coming Antichrist will build the next Jewish temple in Jerusalem.

It's in Zechariah 6, and in the portions of the Book of Daniel about that coming Antichrist.

One of the main warnings from our Lord Jesus and His Apostles about the end of this world is to not be deceived by the coming pseudo-Christ. And to show us how powerful a deception that specific Antichrist is going to work, Jesus told us that it would deceive His very elect, if it were possible (Matt.24). Jesus gave the same warning of great signs and wonders that false one will do like Apostle Paul did in 2 Thess.2 about that false one, as did Apostle John also in Rev.13. It is impossible... for a true believing Christian to miss that specific warning for the end. It is given within the Book of Daniel also, as Jesus linked the "abomination of desolation" prophecy from Daniel to that pseudo-Christ in Matt.24 also.

Twice, our Lord Jesus warned in Matt.24 when others come up to us and say things like, "Lo, here is Christ, or there", He said, "believe it not" (Matt.24:21-26). Very difficult to miss that warning, especially since Jesus gave it twice for emphasis.

Christ is to build the temple per Zech.6. So what will the deceived in Jerusalem expect that pseudo-Christ to do since they will believe that false one is The Christ-Messiah?

Apostle Paul showed in 2 Thess.2:4 that Antichrist will come to sit in that temple in Jerusalem, for that is referring to the idea of the literal temple in Jerusalem, not some figurative one in heaven that men's doctrines preach.

 

[Travis]

Travis,
Don't be discouraged.

No worries,

It will take a lot more than that to discourage me. I'm pretty used to people getting upset or reacting a certain way when someone half their age knows the scriptures better than they do, or some similar situation. People often get condescending when they feel intimidated or they just don't know what they are talking about and someone confronts them about it (directly or indirectly). I see it all the time.

Travis

 

[Strypes]

Christ is to build the temple per Zech.6. So what will the deceived in Jerusalem expect that pseudo-Christ to do since they will believe that false one is The Christ-Messiah?

The Kingly Priest after the order of Melchizedek. The Branch that springs fourth from the root of Jessie.
( Psalm 110:4, Hebrews 7:17, Isaiah 4:2, Jeremiah 23:5,)

Hold on a second...

Zechariah 6..

"9 And the word of the Lord came to me: 10 “Take from the exiles Heldai, Tobijah, and Jedaiah, who have arrived from Babylon, and go the same day to the house of Josiah, the son of Zephaniah.
11 Take from them silver and gold, and make a crown, and set it on the head of Joshua, the son of Jehozadak, the high priest. 12 And say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts, “Behold, the man whose name is the Branch: for he shall branch out from his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord. 13 It is he who shall build the temple of the Lord and shall bear royal honor, and shall sit and rule on his throne. And there shall be a priest on his throne, and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.”’ 14 And the crown shall be in the temple of the Lord as a reminder to Helem, Tobijah, Jedaiah, and Hen the son of Zephaniah.

15 “And those who are far off shall come and help to build the temple of the Lord. And you shall know that the Lord of hosts has sent me to you. And this shall come to pass, if you will diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God.”"

That verse is troubling. You may be right.

This requires further study.

 

[Strypes]

Uh, yes, there is Scripture written that 'implies' the coming Antichrist will build the next Jewish temple in Jerusalem.

I have a question,

Why did you not say so when I asked specifically earlier? Instead you rambled on about my name not being in the Bible.

 

[B-A-C]

As someone who considers himself somewhat a dispensationalist. I usually don't read Tulsa's thread's. When I do, I usually miss the point of them. I don't think
He really understands dispensationalism at all.
For one thing, I don't think anyone's salvation depends of dispensation. If you believe it fine, if not, that's fine too. But I have read several books on the
subject over the last 40 years or so, and @tulsa 2011 comments are what I would call half-truths. For example...

The dispensationalist one man super anti-Christ who appears to be some kind of political and military leader replaces the spirit of anti-Christ which is Biblical.

I would agree with this. On the other hand.

Dispensationalists do not want to talk too much about a spirit of anti-Christ because the way that spirit is defined in I John 4: 3 leads to places they do not want to go - to the Little Horn of Daniel 7: 8 and to the head of the first beast in Revelation 13: 3 whose deadly wound was healed. In their honoring of Israel of the flesh, dispensationalists are honoring a people who by John's definition of the spirit of anti-Christ have that spirit. So the dispensationalists go off on the trail of their one man anti-Christ to draw attention away from their honoring of a people who have the spirit of anti-Christ.

I would definitely disagree with this. One one thing (another mis-quote in another thread) we don't believe that our salvation depends upon honoring Israel. That is blatantly wrong.
We think we should do it. (Gen 12:3; ) We do think Israel is God's chosen people, (Deut 7:6; Deut 14:2; Psa 33:12; 1 Pet 2:9; etc.. ) but our salvation does not depend on it.
Israel is turned away from the gospel by God's plan. ( Rom 11:25-28 Particularly verse 28.

In reguard to @NoHype replies.
Again half truths, there will be a third temple built in Jerusalem. Solomon built the second temple.
2 Kings 24:13; 1 Chron 28:11; 1 Chron 29:1; 1 Chron 29:19; Ezra 2:58; Neh 11:3; and this is the temple Jesus preached in John 10:23;
However this temple was torn down by the Roman's in 70 AD. The waling wall is the only remnant of the temple currently.

In Dan 11:31; Dan 12:11; Mal 2:11; we see something called the abomination of desolation. Tradition (not the Bible itself) hold that Antiochus Ephiphanes III sacrificed
a pig on the altar of the temple. This could be true as swine are considered unclean animals in Jewish culture. Jesus mentions another abomination of desolation in the
future. Matt 24:15; and Mark 13:14; This is sometimes taken in conjunction with other verses to say the beast will be the person doing this. ( 2 Thes 2:3; Rev 11:2; for example )
So if this is true, then the temple must be built a third time in order for the abomination of desolation to happen again.

However the majority of scholars don't think the beast himself will build the temple, for one thing if he built it, it would be a temple dedicated to himself, not to God.
But rather the Jews will build the temple, then the beast either by coercion of by force will take the temple from them and then perform the abomination.
Hippolytus is hardly considered an expert on this, even by Jews.

There is a spirit of the anti-christ. This spirit does deny that Jesus is the Son of God and that he came in the flesh. Yes Judaism does not believe this.
But I personally think God veiling their eyes is different that the spirit of the anti-christ. WE don't need to honor Israel above ourselves, but we should honor them
rather than curse them. To say that this veiling from God is the spirit of the anti-christ is really saying the spirit on the anti-christ comes from God. A dangerous
assumption in my theology.

 

[tulsa 2011]

"Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:" Ezekiel 13: 22

"Ye" are the prophets of Israel in Ezekiel 13: 1 who prophesy out of their own hearts, in other words, the False Prophets. They are said to promise the people life, which means spiritual life.

The False Prophets promise that those who accept their false doctrines will have spiritual life, which in the New Testament is salvation in Christ.

Since the doctrines of dispensationalism that contradict some fundamentals of the Gospel of Christ make it another Gospel and they have another Jesus (II Corinthians 11: 4, Galatians 1: 6-9), those who follow the doctrines of dispensationalism, as another Gospel, believe they have salvation in that other Gospel, and do not know the real Gospel and the real Jesus. Actually, dispensationalists believe they have salvation in that other Gospel, and honoring Israel of the flesh is one part of that other Gospel. This is what Ezekiel 13: 22 is talking about, that the false prophets promise their followers spiritual life in the false doctrines they teach.

The fundamentals of the Gospel of Christ are that he changed Old Covenant Israel in himself and gave himself to make that change in Israel and in all those who he accepts as his own. He fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies of II Kings 21: 13, Isaiah 29: 16 and Jeremiah 18: 1-6, and in the remnant of Romans 11: 1-5. He fulfilled his mission to redeem the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15: 24) in that remnant of Israel (Romans 11: 5). He requires everyone, regardless of their genetics, to be born again to enter the kingdom of God, which is spiritual life in him (John 3: 1-7). There is one fold as he says in John 10: 16, not two, and as Romans 12: 5-6 says there is one Body of Christ, not two. Christ did away with the Old Covenant that he could establish the New Covenant (Hebrews 10: 9), and all in him, regardless of genetics, are in the New Covenant. In Romans 9: 6-8 the children of the flesh, Israel in the flesh without Christ, are not the children of God. In Galatians 4;24-26, Jerusalem which in bondage is contrasted to the Jerusalem, or Israel, which is above, is free and is the mother of us all, that is, the mother of all of the elect. In Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29 identity in Israel (Israel reborn in Christ) is no longer by genetics, by that which is physical, but by putting on Christ.

Sometimes dispensationalists are double minded and will claim to agree with all this above, and yet they stick to the doctrines of dispensationalism which contradict these fundamentals. The basic problem with dispensationalists is that they cannot accept Romans 9: 6-9 and Galatians 3: 3, 16, 26-29, and insist that Israel is only the Israel of the flesh, and in modern times that the Little Horn nation called Israel is the Israel of God, which is anti-Christ. And they accept the doctrine that God now has two peoples, not one elect people, and agree that the Old Covenant was done away with, but it was not done away with entirely.