The Law of God, is it dead or alive or on life support?

[Taylor Barrett]

And i would add, if you believe in a god that lets non-christians into heaven, then you are believing in an unbiblical idol, a figment of your imagination.
It would be very easy to succumb to the flesh and believe that God is so loving and so good that he would never send anyone to hell, or that he would only send those people who i really dont like, but we cannot lean on our own understanding or on our own evil hearts. I serve a God of justice, The God of The Bible, Jesus Christ who said "No one comes to The Father except by me." and "He who does not believe in me is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's only son"

 

[pekoe]

The Law of Moses clearly states: "If there is a man who commits adultery with another man's wife, one who commits adultery with his friend's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death." Now you want to tell me that the law actually means "Don't stone the person, instead have mercy on them". That, to me, is just insanity; equal to saying that "Go eat apples" actually means "Do not eat any apples".

Adulterers will be put to death...just not by you or me. You see Taylor, escape from Egypt, journey through the wilderness, building the tabernacle, entering the promised land and on and on is simply a mirror that you and I are still facing. You want to understand the law only as Paul the former Pharisee wrote to 1st century believers escaping the traditions of other legalists.

 

[pekoe]

And i would add, if you believe in a god that lets non-christians into heaven, then you are believing in an unbiblical idol, a figment of your imagination.

Actually there are people who have never heard of Jesus who will be saved:

Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? Ro.2:26

He's talking about gentiles who don't even know the law:



For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Ro.2:14

It would be very easy to succumb to the flesh and believe that God is so loving and so good that he would never send anyone to hell, or that he would only send those people who i really dont like, but we cannot lean on our own understanding or on our own evil hearts.

God is going to destroy all unbelievers. No guess work there.

I serve a God of justice, The God of The Bible, Jesus Christ who said "No one comes to The Father except by me." and "He who does not believe in me is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's only son"

I think believing in Jesus is believing in what Jesus taught, regardless of whether someone has ever heard of the Person of Jesus.

 

[Taylor Barrett]

Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior, He Himself said

""For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. "

and

"I am The Way, The Truth, and The Life, No one comes to The Father except by me."

Those people who do not know Christ, they will be guilty on judgement day because they have sinned and they have not placed their faith in the one who paid their fine.

 

[DHC]

Actually there are people who have never heard of Jesus who will be saved:

Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? Ro.2:26

He's talking about gentiles who don't even know the law:

Hello Pekoe.

You made some comments about Paul's letter to the Romans, one of your comments in particular follows.

Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision
be counted for circumcision? Ro.2:26
He's talking about gentiles who don't even know the law:

Paul is not really saying that a righteous gentile exists, nor is Paul actually saying that a gentile can
be saved by fulfilling the righteous requirements of the law. Only that a good uncircumcised gentile
will judge the law breaking Jew.

Paul is addressing the Jewish members in the Roman church Pekoe.

The purpose of the law is not to generate righteous behavior, rather the law shows us, well
and truly, how far we fall short of God's righteous standard. Law restrains society because the
law contains penalties. If the government abolished the police force your society would
break down into total anarchy. The law itself contains no inbuilt power to sanctify anyone and
that was never purpose of the law.

If you read the next chapter in this letter to the Romans, you will find what I have said to be true.

Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth
may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law
no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

We know what sin is because the law says it's sin. We then find that we are unable to obey
the law to any degree. This is the deeper truth that has been revealed within the scripture.

May I ask why you would even ponder the idea that a gentile could obey the law even
though they never received the law. When the Jews who received the law were so disobedient
to the law. Paul is correct in that the law has effectively condemned the world.

 

[pekoe]

Hello Pekoe.

You made some comments about Paul's letter to the Romans, one of your comments in particular follows.

Paul is not really saying that a righteous gentile exists, nor is Paul actually saying that a gentile can
be saved by fulfilling the righteous requirements of the law. Only that a good uncircumcised gentile
will judge the law breaking Jew.

Paul is saying a Gentile who may never have heard the gospel, but has faith in God is deemed as "circumcised." Circumcision is a covenant of faith, so the believing non-Jewish person is saved.

Paul is addressing the Jewish members in the Roman church Pekoe.

I'm aware of it.

The purpose of the law is not to generate righteous behavior, rather the law shows us, well
and truly, how far we fall short of God's righteous standard.

God's righteous standard is to do justly and love mercy and to walk humbly with Him (Mic.6:8)

Law restrains society because the
law contains penalties. If the government abolished the police force your society would break down into total anarchy.

I agree.

The law itself contains no inbuilt power to sanctify anyone and that was never purpose of the law.

It does when it's combined with faith, because the whole law of God includes forgiveness. (He.4:2)

If you read the next chapter in this letter to the Romans, you will find what I have said to be true.

I've read the book many times and I think I know now why Paul's letters seem contrary to Jesus teachings.

Romans 3

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth
may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Right, step one is understand that we are sinners. This is why Jesus came preaching repent.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law
no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

And as you correctly said, Paul is speaking to Jews, who thought physical circumcision made them righteous, or that washing their hands would keep them from defilement. He's dealing with new converts who were steeped in tradition

We know what sin is because the law says it's sin. [/Quote]
That's true.

We then find that we are unable to obey the law to any degree. This is the deeper truth that has been revealed within the scripture.

This isn't true. If people were unable to obey even the simplest directive, God would never have chosen to save people by preaching. The people of Nineveh would have been doomed.

May I ask why you would even ponder the idea that a gentile could obey the law even though they never received the law. When the Jews who received the law were so disobedient to the law.

Certainly. I asked a Jewish friend why he didn't believe Jesus is the Messiah. Aside from the usual answers, I discovered that God doesn't require sacrifice for sins. This seems totally contrary to everthing I was ever taught in church, but examining the scriptures showed me that my Jewish friend was right.

Jesus came here for the purpose of revealing God to us. His death was nothing less than murder, which God knew would happen, but had no part in:



Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son. Mk.12:6

This was God's will, not torture and death of His Son. God simply turned an evil thing for our benefit. Just like this:

But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.Ge.50:50

Paul is correct in that the law has effectively condemned the world.

God's intention was never to condemn anyone, but that people should come to faith in Him.

 

[Taylor Barrett]

Pekoe, you are terribly incorrect. Not a single person could ever go to Heaven unless Jesus Christ was crucified on behalf of those who believe. And entrance to Heaven is ONLY permitted to those who trust in God's sacrifice. Otherwise they have a fine to pay which they are wholly incapable of paying. Circumcision of the heart is accomplished through The Holy Spirit, which can only dwell in the one who trusts in God's sacrifice. Faith in 'God' is not enough... for anything.

 

[Taylor Barrett]

this is a very good reply.

Hello Pekoe.

You made some comments about Paul's letter to the Romans, one of your comments in particular follows.

Paul is not really saying that a righteous gentile exists, nor is Paul actually saying that a gentile can
be saved by fulfilling the righteous requirements of the law. Only that a good uncircumcised gentile
will judge the law breaking Jew.

Paul is addressing the Jewish members in the Roman church Pekoe.

The purpose of the law is not to generate righteous behavior, rather the law shows us, well
and truly, how far we fall short of God's righteous standard. Law restrains society because the
law contains penalties. If the government abolished the police force your society would
break down into total anarchy. The law itself contains no inbuilt power to sanctify anyone and
that was never purpose of the law.

If you read the next chapter in this letter to the Romans, you will find what I have said to be true.

Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth
may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law
no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

We know what sin is because the law says it's sin. We then find that we are unable to obey
the law to any degree. This is the deeper truth that has been revealed within the scripture.

May I ask why you would even ponder the idea that a gentile could obey the law even
though they never received the law. When the Jews who received the law were so disobedient
to the law. Paul is correct in that the law has effectively condemned the world.

 

[RJ]

Actually there are people who have never heard of Jesus who will be saved:

Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? Ro.2:26

He's talking about gentiles who don't even know the law:



For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Ro.2:14



God is going to destroy all unbelievers. No guess work there.

I think believing in Jesus is believing in what Jesus taught, regardless of whether someone has ever heard of the Person of Jesus.

Unless I have misunderstood you, I personally feel your thinking and reasoning is convoluted and untrue.

Plain and simple: anyone who dies and does not have Jesus indwelling in them are unsaved and will go to hell. Revelation 3 :20 tells the truth about this matter: Jesus stands at the door of all and only those who choose to open that door and willfully, consciously invite him in will be indwelt with the Holy Spirit...the only thing that saves! One has to know Jesus in order to open that door. Anyone who dies with out doing this is lost and it is not up to man to interpret any change to that, that belongs to God which person who does or who doesn't do this.

 

[pekoe]

Pekoe, you show me where (in the law, not in later prophets) your understanding is revealed. Because what I see, is a very clear, direct, simple, and plain commandment which says that adulterers must be stoned. period.

Stoning adulterers, executing idol worshippers, destroying the ungodly from the "promised land etc. are all pictures of eradicating sin from our lives and the purity of our home in the next life.

Why is it that you insist on interpreting one passage of scripture without looking at what those who knew Jesus best have to say about it? People who isolate scripture from other scripture usually come to the wrong conclusion. Atheists are notorious for this.

OT believers condemning sin is equal to NT believers crucifying the flesh. Killing sin in our lives

 

[RJ]

The law is really all about Jesus:

And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: 2 Co.3:13

The law doesn't profit anyone without faith in God. It only condemns them.

This makes no sense and not true. Moses face glowed ( similar to the way Jesus glowed during Transfiguration) because he was reflecting the glory of God, which he had just been with. Moses wore a veil in order not to scare the israelites because they were already fearful of God.
Also, as holy and righetoous the Law still is, we do not live under the precepts of the Old Law. We now, live under free Grace, whereby Jesus Christ in us is our Holiness and Righteousne!

 

[DHC]

Hello Pekoe.

Please read the following text.

Matthew 19
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have
eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want
to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’
‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and,
‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ”
20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will
have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
23 Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom
of heaven. 24 And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich
man to enter the kingdom of God.”
25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”
26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Tell me how you understand the text above and with the emphasis on commandment keeping?

 

[pekoe]

Pekoe, you are terribly incorrect. Not a single person could ever go to Heaven unless Jesus Christ was crucified on behalf of those who believe. And entrance to Heaven is ONLY permitted to those who trust in God's sacrifice. Otherwise they have a fine to pay which they are wholly incapable of paying. Circumcision of the heart is accomplished through The Holy Spirit, which can only dwell in the one who trusts in God's sacrifice. Faith in 'God' is not enough... for anything.

If you want to believe that there is a "fine" to be paid for sin, that's ok. I only have two questions for you:

And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment, Lk.7:37

What reason did the Messiah give for this woman's sins being forgiven...and did she pay a fine?

 

[pekoe]

Unless I have misunderstood you, I personally feel your thinking and reasoning is convoluted and untrue.

Plain and simple: anyone who dies and does not have Jesus indwelling in them are unsaved and will go to hell. Revelation 3 :20 tells the truth about this matter: Jesus stands at the door of all and only those who choose to open that door and willfully, consciously invite him in will be indwelt with the Holy Spirit...the only thing that saves! One has to know Jesus in order to open that door. Anyone who dies with out doing this is lost and it is not up to man to interpret any change to that, that belongs to God which person who does or who doesn't do this.

There are many souls who have never even heard of Jesus and if you believe God will condemn them for this reason, then you have a wrong perception of the merciful God described in the Bible.

A person who never read the Bible, but realizes God exists and idesires mercy from his Creator will receive it. If you don't believe that you truly don't know much about your heavenly Father.

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Mt.5:7

These are the words of our King Eternal. Now, are you going to argue with Him?

 

[Taylor Barrett]

If you want to believe that there is a "fine" to be paid for sin, that's ok. I only have two questions for you:

And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment, Lk.7:37

What reason did the Messiah give for this woman's sins being forgiven...and did she pay a fine?

Jesus paid the fine for all who accept Him as their Savior. She was forgiven because she loved Jesus, therefore Jesus paid her fine because she loved Him.

 

[Taylor Barrett]

There are many souls who have never even heard of Jesus and if you believe God will condemn them for this reason, then you have a wrong perception of the merciful God described in the Bible.

A person who never read the Bible, but realizes God exists and idesires mercy from his Creator will receive it. If you don't believe that you truly don't know much about your heavenly Father.

Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. Mt.5:7

These are the words of our King Eternal. Now, are you going to argue with Him?

God will not condemn people because they have not heard of Jesus, He will condemn them, each according to their deeds, for the sin that each one has committed.

 

[Taylor Barrett]

I asked a Jewish friend why he didn't believe Jesus is the Messiah. Aside from the usual answers, I discovered that God doesn't require sacrifice for sins. This seems totally contrary to everthing I was ever taught in church, but examining the scriptures showed me that my Jewish friend was right.

Jesus came here for the purpose of revealing God to us. His death was nothing less than murder, which God knew would happen, but had no part in:
.

"Now my soul is deeply troubled. Should I pray, 'Father, save me from this hour'? But this is the very

reason I came!

John 12:27

 

[Taylor Barrett]

"He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement for our peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed" (Isaiah:53:5).

 

[Taylor Barrett]

In this is love: not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation (the atoning sacrifice) for our sins.
1 John 4:10

 

[Taylor Barrett]

Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 9:22