Spockrates
Member
Yes, I believe you are correct. And is forgiveness an example of such love?
Should I Always Forgive Everyone in Every Way?
- Thread starter Spockrates
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Yes, I believe you are correct. And is forgiveness an example of such love?
Brighthouse
Active
Thanks brother Spockrates, to me brother forgiveness starts with self and expands outwardly. And James is so correct as well. example- After two tours in Vietnam,i was filled with so much guilt and condemnation,I had just cause to feel this way. When Jesus came into my life,I would quarrel with him often in prayer,and ask him a lot why would you ever care about me?? There is no purpose to care about me,you do not have one good reason to care about me. A scripture went into my head at this point,(2 cor 5:21) as i did not know this scripture I had to go find it in my Bible,and asked the Lord to be excused for a moment to find it. lol Yes i asked him first. lol
Upon getting my Bible which from this point on I now always take into my prayer room,I found the following." He made HIM who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in him!" The only foundation one needs to have from the start in Christ Jesus is his love,as James pointed out.( eph 3:17-19) From this foundation,the next step is to know you have ALWAYS become in right standing with Christ Jesus!! ( rom 4:1-8!!!!) For the Love of God was poured out to his children,in such a great and powerful way,that Jesus was made to be sin,so we would never have to be!
From His sin which he never committed or knew,we have become righteous. Did Jesus do anything to have sin be put upon him?? Of course not,Nor did we do anything to receive his righteousness!! The point! Jesus loved us so much,that he bought his own children by his own blood! Jesus became a living curse!!( gal 3:13-14!!!) So that we would never have to become one ourselfs,for no one other then Jesus could have preformed this miracle other then the Lamb of God!( john 15:11-17!!!) Do you believe me Holy Spirit asked?
Answer me not by words my son,but by action, then by words! For belief is preformed, and then spoken to confirm ones action in me.( psalms 103:8-17!!) Then filled my mind. It is so rare any tear falls from my eyes brother,but here upon hearing these words,tears did fall from both eyes. I GOT IT!!! I really understood now! For in Christ Jesus is like coming to a new classroom, with Holy Spirit teaching us!( 1 john 2:27)
A school where the student never leaves the classroom. To graduate from this class one must stay till the end of class, overcome!!(rev 2:11 among so many scripture on overcoming in this book!!)and upon that day,Jesus himself comes to receive us into his Glory! A chalkboad where every single sin is reveled past,present, and future,is turned around by Jesus to revel a clean board! A new creature has a new beginning,and learns how God transforms our minds, into his mind!( 1 cor 1:30-31) Sin is removed,forgiveness has been made complete by the Blood of our Jesus!
And with no work done by the student,right standing is also now obtained forever! I am now 60 years of age,and for 38 years i have remained in class,learning always the purpose of remaining,and how through what I have been taught,i can reach out to encourage others to come to class, and not skip anymore! To stay righteous,is to always stay in Christ Jesus! For from all that my Jesus has done just for me,I AM LOYAL!!!!!! When you understand really just how much you are truly LOVED by Jesus,you will then understand how righteous you also remain in him,apart from feeling and emotions of our flesh that look to always bring guilt upon our Spirit,because flesh is flesh!
Flesh looks with its feeling and emotions,that is its nature,but Jesus teaches us to renew our minds,so that we can think now in his wisdom rather then in our sorry flesh! This is not sinless perfection,for we have flesh,but no matter our mistakes we remain as he always sees us in him!!( 2 cor 4:7-18!!) verse 18!! But the things not seen are eternal! We must learn this,and we never stop learning this until the teacher removes us himself from the classroom to follow him into graduation! Glory be to our Lord forever!! amen!
Upon getting my Bible which from this point on I now always take into my prayer room,I found the following." He made HIM who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in him!" The only foundation one needs to have from the start in Christ Jesus is his love,as James pointed out.( eph 3:17-19) From this foundation,the next step is to know you have ALWAYS become in right standing with Christ Jesus!! ( rom 4:1-8!!!!) For the Love of God was poured out to his children,in such a great and powerful way,that Jesus was made to be sin,so we would never have to be!
From His sin which he never committed or knew,we have become righteous. Did Jesus do anything to have sin be put upon him?? Of course not,Nor did we do anything to receive his righteousness!! The point! Jesus loved us so much,that he bought his own children by his own blood! Jesus became a living curse!!( gal 3:13-14!!!) So that we would never have to become one ourselfs,for no one other then Jesus could have preformed this miracle other then the Lamb of God!( john 15:11-17!!!) Do you believe me Holy Spirit asked?
Answer me not by words my son,but by action, then by words! For belief is preformed, and then spoken to confirm ones action in me.( psalms 103:8-17!!) Then filled my mind. It is so rare any tear falls from my eyes brother,but here upon hearing these words,tears did fall from both eyes. I GOT IT!!! I really understood now! For in Christ Jesus is like coming to a new classroom, with Holy Spirit teaching us!( 1 john 2:27)
A school where the student never leaves the classroom. To graduate from this class one must stay till the end of class, overcome!!(rev 2:11 among so many scripture on overcoming in this book!!)and upon that day,Jesus himself comes to receive us into his Glory! A chalkboad where every single sin is reveled past,present, and future,is turned around by Jesus to revel a clean board! A new creature has a new beginning,and learns how God transforms our minds, into his mind!( 1 cor 1:30-31) Sin is removed,forgiveness has been made complete by the Blood of our Jesus!
And with no work done by the student,right standing is also now obtained forever! I am now 60 years of age,and for 38 years i have remained in class,learning always the purpose of remaining,and how through what I have been taught,i can reach out to encourage others to come to class, and not skip anymore! To stay righteous,is to always stay in Christ Jesus! For from all that my Jesus has done just for me,I AM LOYAL!!!!!! When you understand really just how much you are truly LOVED by Jesus,you will then understand how righteous you also remain in him,apart from feeling and emotions of our flesh that look to always bring guilt upon our Spirit,because flesh is flesh!
Flesh looks with its feeling and emotions,that is its nature,but Jesus teaches us to renew our minds,so that we can think now in his wisdom rather then in our sorry flesh! This is not sinless perfection,for we have flesh,but no matter our mistakes we remain as he always sees us in him!!( 2 cor 4:7-18!!) verse 18!! But the things not seen are eternal! We must learn this,and we never stop learning this until the teacher removes us himself from the classroom to follow him into graduation! Glory be to our Lord forever!! amen!
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I'll explain the difference between forgiveness and love and it comes down to this - basically forgiveness is about you, but love is about the other person.
Example.
Suppose a thief steals your car, will you forgive the thief because the thief is a nice person? because the thief is good-looking? No. Forgiveness is entirely about how good you are, not about how good they are.
But suppose you see a person in need on the street, you might love that person by giving them food, because you think they are a good person in need of food. Would you give money to a homeless person if you knew they were the person that stole your car? No, no sensible person would give money to a person they thought is not worthy of it. Now love is not entirely about you but more about how good the other person is. That's why people give their spouses $200 gifts at Christmas but give only $10 to the homeless person on the street. Because the love a person has for their spouse is greater than the love they have for a homeless stranger. In other words, a person sees their spouse as more worthy than a stranger on the street.
Love and forgiveness can be seen as two separate things. For example,
God sending His son to die on the cross for our sins is an act of love because God saw the worth of humanity as being created in His image. If we were merely animals or demons, God would not have sent his son to die on the cross for us.
God forgiving our sins is because of His mercy (entirely because of who He is, His goodness and kindness), not because of who we are.
So love is partly about the person being shown love. But forgiveness is entirely about the person doing the forgiving.
If you do an online Bible word search for the words love and forgive in the KJV, the only verse where love and forgiveness appear together are Luke 7:47 and this is about love as a response to being forgiven, not forgiveness as an example of love. The Bible often puts mercy and forgiveness together e.g. Matt 18:33-35 and Daniel 9:9, and this is resulting from God's goodness or kindness (Psalm 51:1-2). Therefore forgiveness is not really an example of love, forgiveness is an example of mercy, which comes from God's goodness and kindness.
To give an example. Suppose a thief is standing before a judge. The judge pardons the thief or reduces the sentence not because he loves the thief, but because he is merciful. The judge may actually hate the thief because he is a thief, but shows mercy because the judge is good and kind. So the main difference between goodness/kindness, mercy and forgiveness, and love, is that love implies some worth or quality in the offender, but mercy and forgiveness is entirely because of who the pardoner is. The story of the good Samaritan is about love, because the good Samaritan saw some worth in the person he helped. But a story about forgiveness is about the noble qualities of the forgiving one, not the forgiven one.
But suppose you do something good to those who offended you, then doing good is a kind of love (Luke 6:27), and this could be because you see some worth in the person as a human being. But this is not forgiveness, as forgiveness is of the heart, and forgiveness requires no actions.
So when you forgive someone, you are being merciful to them, and you can forgive someone without loving them. But if you do something good outwardly for those who hurt you, then you are showing love. On the one hand Jesus says to forgive, and on the other hand Jesus says to do good. In other words, Jesus is saying to show mercy (by forgiveness) and show love( by doing good). The mercy is about not doing something negative (not to take revenge, not to punish etc) and showing love is about doing something positive. The mercy and forgiveness normally involves no outward action (just an act of the heart, with a decision not to do something), but the loving and doing good involves action (both of the heart and outward).
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Spockrates
Member
So are you saying there is no way to love someone by forgiving them, because there is no act of love that is forgiving?
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Spockrates
Member
James:
Or are you of the opinion that there are forgiving acts, but such acts are in no way examples of forgiveness?
Or are you of the opinion that there are forgiving acts, but such acts are in no way examples of forgiveness?
It is not my opinion it is actually a fact. Let us go back to the word origin of forgiven. Old English forgiefan means to "give, grant, allow; forgive," also "to give up", for- "completely" + giefan "give". The modern sense of "to give up desire or power to punish" is from use of the compound as a Germanic loan-translation of Latin perdonare (such as Old Saxon fargeban, German vergeben), or "pardon".
Therefore to forgive is to pardon, or not blame, and is independent of action.
I am of the fact that forgiveness is separate to love because the Bible doesn't usually put the two together. It usually puts forgiveness with mercy, not with love. And some Bible verses translate mercy to love but they are wrong, we need to go back to the original Hebrew or Greek.
There are acts done out of forgiveness but such acts are not examples of forgiveness, but examples of love. To love someone requires some actions, but to forgive someone requires no actions and in fact, to forgive someone really means that you will take no action (revenge, punishment etc). Example: you forgive a thief who stole your car by not blaming them (in your heart) and not taking revenge (no action). Suppose you then decide to give that thief a bag of cookies because you think he is poor and needs some loving, then that is an act of love, not forgiveness.
There is no example in the Bible of God doing a forgiving action, for example, I would challenge anyone to find a true action of forgiveness in the Bible, that is not an action of love. Forgiveness is about not taking action because you are merciful, good and kind, but love is about taking action because another person has some worth.
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Spockrates
Member
Fascinating!
I agree that letting go of the desire to punish is indeed thought, rather than action. What I wonder is if one who gives up the desire to punish also embraces the desire to benefit the forgiven.
I believe using the power to punish is an example of action. What I wonder is if one who doesn't exercise the power to punish does exercise the power to benefit the forgiven.
Understanding mercy might help me better understand forgiveness. If you think it will help, please tell me what do you believe mercy is. If you think it will be an unhelpful diversion, then don't bother defining mercy, for now.
Then we should never again use the expression, "an act of forgiveness," and if anyone speaks those words, we should immediately correct them, saying that no such act exists.
But isn't choosing to not take action to punish the same as taking action to benefit the forgiven? I'm thinking that choosing to not act is itself an act. For example, I could choose to not act on my desire to sin. But such a choice isn't a non-action. It is the action of resisting temptation.
For a biblical example of forgiveness, please consider David's prayer for forgiveness:
Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from Thy presence, O LORD. Take not Thy Holy Spirit from me. Restore onto me the joy of Thy salvation, and renew a right spirit within me.
(Psalms 51)
Isn't the choice to "cast me not away from Thy presence" the same thing as taking action to "restore onto me the joy of Thy salvation"? Isn't the choice to "take not Thy Holy Spirit from me" the same as taking action to "renew a right spirit within me"? Or do you think the psalm is not a prayer asking for forgiveness?
Yes, that would be an impossible challenge to meet, if forgiveness was, in fact love. But for the person who believes forgiving is a way to love, I think you would instead challenge her to prove God's love is forgiving. Are you saying it is a fact that since love never is forgiveness, God's love never is forgiving?
Perhaps you are familiar with the musical Les Miserabes, specifically the event where the pastor discovers the hero of the story is stealing from him. If not, I'll briefly describe the scene, if you don't mind. I believe it is a thought-provoking example of forgiveness that might assist us in examining our current idea of forgiveness as being a thought, but never a word or deed.
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Spockrates
Member
Thanks, Brighthouse. If you don't mind my asking, were you having difficulty forgiving God, yourself or someone else in Vietnam?
Brighthouse
Active
Good question Brother Spockrates,as I can only speak for myself,I do not know of a single person dead or alive that has never had regret. I also do not know of anyone who with having regret, does not also regret other people either! LOL For whatever the mindset of a person,this is also reveled to other people. This cannot be helped, even if one looks to hide from people. lol I never did blame God,because you cannot blame someone you do not know. lol Although many people do. For me , life was all about me, back then,it did not matter what others thought of me,it was my will against your will,and you will lose. lol
Growing up severely disciplined,I treated others as i was taught,whether they liked it or not! lol When I did come to know Jesus,his will was stronger then mine. LOL i was very head headed,and it took the Lord a great deal of time and effort on his part,to get me to see that his will win over my will!! LOL Hence Loyalty!! When you know you cannot win,you submit,or be destroyed. At first from fear,then from love!( proverbs 1:7) To begin to receive wisdom from the Lord one must learn to have the highest regard for him to me bro.
From having the highest regard for someone leads us to his love, and the obtaining of his wisdom,how be it in part of course.All aspects like trust( proverbs 3:5-7) and making sure that at all times, and in all places, one always gives acknowledgement to the one who created him in the first place,for in this acknowledgement love is born,and grace grows! Both for yourself in Christ Jesus,as well as to others looking for the same!( 2 Peter 3:18) Blessing bro!
Growing up severely disciplined,I treated others as i was taught,whether they liked it or not! lol When I did come to know Jesus,his will was stronger then mine. LOL i was very head headed,and it took the Lord a great deal of time and effort on his part,to get me to see that his will win over my will!! LOL Hence Loyalty!! When you know you cannot win,you submit,or be destroyed. At first from fear,then from love!( proverbs 1:7) To begin to receive wisdom from the Lord one must learn to have the highest regard for him to me bro.
From having the highest regard for someone leads us to his love, and the obtaining of his wisdom,how be it in part of course.All aspects like trust( proverbs 3:5-7) and making sure that at all times, and in all places, one always gives acknowledgement to the one who created him in the first place,for in this acknowledgement love is born,and grace grows! Both for yourself in Christ Jesus,as well as to others looking for the same!( 2 Peter 3:18) Blessing bro!
Spockrates
Member
I apologize for asking such a personal question.
Spockrates
Member
James the biblical author, or James our forum friend?
Brighthouse
Active
James the forum friend.
Spockrates
Member
Perhaps you missed his reply, but he is saying forgiving is only internal and never external. It is a selfish thing one does to benefit oneself, rather than a selfless thing one does to benefit another. However, he is not advocating egotism. Love is paramount, he explains, but forgiveness is not love, he claims.
This is different from your view, if I'm understanding your reply, correctly. What do you think of his view? I find it fascinating, and I'm examining it from every angle to see if it is actually the truth.
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Brighthouse
Active
humm my bad bro!! LOL well he was correct is one part anyway. hehe Would you say Spocrates that forgiveness is part of faith?( mark 11:22-26) and if it is part of faith then it will work through love.( gal 5:6) I do not understand my brother james on it being selfish?
Spockrates
Member
Glad to have someone ask me questions for a change of pace. Thanks. Before I may answer the question, I should tell you what I think faith and love might be:
Love seems to me to be compassion in action, as our friend James explained. It is acting on the desire to do some good for another, even an enemy. Faith, it seems to me is something altogether different from love. It might be described as trust in action. (Although, I suspect even trust might sometimes be love, for Paul writes, "love...always trusts" (1 Corinthians 13).)
So to love you, I would show my compassion by taking some action to meet some need you have. To have faith in you, I would show I believe in you by taking some action to put trust in you. And if you need me to believe in you, then I might both love you and put faith in you by taking some action to demonstrate I trust you.
Now let me try to answer your question, "Is forgiveness part of faith?" The only way of which I can think this would be possible is if forgiveness is, at least sometimes faith. For one thing cannot be part of something without being, at least in part that something. An example: My left big toe is part of my body, so it is, at least in part my body.
So if faith is trust in action, then the only way I can see that forgiveness is part of faith would be if forgiveness is also trust in action--more specifically, restoring such trust in action after it is lost. When someone regains my confidence, my relationship of trust with her is restored. Hence, forgiveness might be part of faith, but only if forgiveness is restoration of a relationship.
Regarding the passage you mentioned, I'm not sure how it shows that forgiveness is part of faith. Do you have any ideas?
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Brighthouse
Active
Understand your point Spockrates,at times in my walk i had decided i knew all there was to know about any subject concerning love and faith. lol Until one day Holy Spirit showed me something to stop my self righteous thinking!! LOL here it is in two places!! ( matt 16:16-26 and Luke 18:18-27) the point is this good brother,we will always have need of our Jesus in both word and deed! We cannot forgive on our own that lasts!! And faith was never ours to begin with,the belief of that Faith is!( john 6:28-29) You talked about a relationship!! Your wording is of great interest as to the meaning! Is it not important to be willing to relate? And if so,how long are we going to follow in that relating? hehe I believe brother we are on the same page,we will always need God's wisdom,and we will always have great need of each other!( john 13:34-35) blessing!
Just to clarify you there. Forgiveness cannot benefit another unless it is necessary to prevent an act of retribution or revenge which would arise out of unforgiveness. For example, if I commit an offense against someone and the other person chooses not to forgive me and not to take revenge, it does not affect me whatsoever. For example, it is a rare thing that a criminal will be moved or affected in some way by a victim who chooses not to forgive.
But in the case of preventing an act of revenge, then forgiveness is done to benefit another, however it is done not because of the other (because they are in the right), but because of yourself (that you are in the right). It is commonly said in Christian circles that we should forgive others and not harbor bitterness etc because of the negative effects these emotions have on our mental and physical well being. That would be an example of forgiveness from selfish motives. However forgiving another person because they have some worth or did not intend to offend you, would be an example of forgiving because of the other person and not just yourself.
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Spockrates
Member
Yes, it is important. Hopefully for eternity. But did I answer your question about forgiveness truthfully? (It's OK to tell me if I did not. You will be helping me find the truth by showing me what is false.)
Spockrates
Member
Thanks for the reply. Are you as surprised as I am at where our inquiry has taken us? Since forgiveness is never an act, there is no such thing as forgiving words or deeds. For no act of forgiveness exists. This results in some strange inferences.
For example, when Jesus taught is to pray, "Forgive us our sins. For we also forgive those who sin against us" (Luke 11:4), he could not possibly have been telling us to ask God to pardon us for our sins. For pardoning is an act, and forgiveness never is an act.
And when Jesus prayed while suffering on the cross, "Father, forgive them. For they don't know what they are doing" (Luke 23:34), he could not possibly have been asking God to forgoe some punishment. For withholding punishment is an act, and forgiveness never is an act.
Fascinating, indeed! And forgive me for having such a hard time wrapping my small brain around your concept of forgiving. But please tell me: Do you think it is always a sin to be unforgiving?
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You are talking about something different now which is not in line with your original questioning or my responses.
You talk about an act of pardoning, but to pardon is to release from punishment - it is to not take (some negative) external action. This is what I've been saying. Pardoning is something that is done but it involves no external action. Pardoning simply involves a change of mind, first and foremost.
When you talk about forgiveness I thought you are referring to the person doing the forgiving, not the person asking for forgiveness. Your examples of the Lord's prayer and Jesus on the cross are acts of asking for forgiveness, not the act of forgiving. I believe there is such a thing as forgiving words or deeds, but these words and deeds by themselves are not forgiveness because forgiveness involves the heart. The far majority of Biblical and Christian experience in terms of God's forgiveness - is based on a promise to forgive, as recorded in the Bible, and God as the forgiver, undertakes no actions, but only undertakes a change of mind. After the promise is believed, the person asking forgiveness may experience a relieved conscience, but there is no external action or evidence to verify that forgiveness has actually taken place (no audible voice from Heaven etc), which in some cases may give a person a false sense of security that will be overturned during Judgement Day (at Christ's second coming) when everyone has to give an account for every word and deed. At this time the guilty conscience may be re-activated which may be comforted by hearing the words "well done good and faithful servant" (Matt 25:21), or confirmed by hearing the words "I never knew (recognized or approved) of you (your actions)" (Matthew 7:23). So the only time when an action of forgiveness will be provided by God is at the second coming of Christ - until then, a believer's forgiveness is based on God's (conditional) promise, our expectation, until the future realization.
So let us try again, using your Biblical examples in the proper context, pose a question: After Jesus asks God to forgive his killers (on the cross), or after we ask God to forgive our sins and sins of others (as per the Lord's prayer)...
What action does God take to forgive us our sins?
Some plausible actions may be:
a) send a beam of light or power to erase our sin from our being
b) erase, burn or destroy a "sin list" as in a book record of sins
c) tell us that we are forgiven by an audible voice from Heaven ("your sins are forgiven").
There is really no evidence that God does any of these things.
So the only thing that God does to forgive us is d) pardon, i.e. decide not to take any action, i.e. release from intended punishment.
I would not say that to pardon someone is an action - it is a thought, intent or emotion of the heart, it primarily involves a change of mind.
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