Saved by force?

[Travis]

Eccl 6:8; For what advantage does the wise man have over the fool?

Much, in every way.

Ecclesiastes 10
1 Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking savour: [so doth] a little folly him that is in reputation for wisdom [and] honour. 2 A wise man's heart [is] at his right hand; but a fool's heart at his left. 3 Yea also, when he that is a fool walketh by the way, his wisdom faileth [him], and he saith to every one [that] he [is] a fool.​

Even the virgins who are fools in this parable had some wisdom in this lifetime. The children of the devil are wiser than the children of light often in their generation. But, neither of these groups had the wisdom which is talked about here:

Proverbs 9:10 KJV - 10 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy [is] understanding.​

These are fools because deep down in their heart they do not believe God is who he actually is. They say in their heart, there is no God. Therefore they have no fear of the LORD. Having the fear of the Lord is a gift from God.

None of the foolish virgins have this. They think that they are alright with God, they think that they are cool with Him, and that he will accept them because they are all around pretty good people. But the Lord despises them and wants nothing to do with them. The wise virgins know that they are sinners, and freely admit this fact. In their hearts they know that there is a God, and they know what he requires of them. This is to admit that they are sinners, and that they cannot save themselves, and that they need to put their trust in Jesus Christ's blood to save them. This is the wisdom that will save. The wise know this. Fools do not.

Is our wisdom worldly, or is it of heaven? That is the question.

Grace to you,

Travis

 

[james1523]

Is it possible to be saved without Jesus? Can you be saved if He doesn't know you?

Matt 25:11; "Later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.'
Matt 25:12; "But he answered, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.'

Is running out of oil a temporary thing? If you go get some and then come back later is that good enough?

"I do not know you", can mean "I do not approve of you".
Oil signifies the Holy Spirit. Their lamps going out (verse 8) signifies them not being filled enough with the Holy Spirit. Lamps are designed to shine light. The wick of the oil lamp must be trimmed, signifying the denial of our self and crucifixion of our flesh (verse 7). The source of the light is the oil, which is the Holy Spirit.
To buy oil for themselves, means they have to pay the price (deny the self,take up the cross, love & obey Christ) to be filled with the Spirit.
The lesson here is that they did not pay the price during their earthly lives (verse 5 is death, verse 7 is the resurrection), so they have to pay the price after the resurrection, whilst those who paid the price during their time on Earth, enjoyed their time with Christ at the Wedding feast (which occurs at the start of the millenial reign of Christ, in the heavens).
The ones who sell the oil in verse 9, could be the two witnesses in Revelation who come during the tribulation period (Zech 4:12-14, Rev 11:4).
I would have thought that the foolish virgins having lighted lamps containing oil, in the first place, would be believers, not unbelievers. I am sure we all know of Christians who are genuine believers in Christ, yet are foolish when it comes to denying their self and redeeming the time.

 

[B-A-C]

"I do not know you", can mean "I do not approve of you".

I personally think we should always take the Bible at face value and go with what it says instead of "what it could mean".

Oil signifies the Holy Spirit. Their lamps going out (verse 8) signifies them not being filled enough with the Holy Spirit.

I agree with this. Even David said...
Psa 51:11; Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.

 

[B-A-C]

No one will be saved by God who does not ultimately want to be saved by God.
No one can truly desire to be saved by God, in the Way (singular) he has provided, without God moving in them.
No one can have the faith (which God's Grace flows through) required to be saved unless God freely gives it to them.

According to 2 Peter 3:9; God wants EVERYONE to be saved. Yet we know everyone won't be saved.
1 Tim 2:3-4; says the same thing. He wants ALL to be saved. Everyone. But everyone isn't saved. Why? Because we have the choice to refuse Him.

As far as no one desiring to be saved without God moving in them... do you think Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses desire to be saved?
Do you think they found salvation because "God was moving in them"?
Do you think God was moving in Esau in Hebrews 12:16-17? Obviously he was wanting to be saved.

Perhaps no one can believe without God giving them faith, but even if He does give them faith. Are they saved? Even the demons believe. ( Jas 2:19; )
Also the Bible says God gives faith to ALL men, not just some. ( Rom 12:3; )
Yet even though they have this faith.. they reject Him.

So this person falls away. I am assuming that you think that this person, as long as they are alive, can follow there choice and come back to Christ and be saved again. People, from time to time, fall way but are still allowed to come back to salvation again, right?

No, I don't believe they can come back.

Luke 9:62; But Jesus said to him, "No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

No one can come to the father except by Jesus.. true. ( John 14:6; )
But does everyone Jesus approach accept Him?

John 5:43; "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.
John 12:48; "He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.
Rev 3:20; 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

 

[Travis]

Do you think God was moving in Esau in Hebrews 12:16-17? Obviously he was wanting to be saved.

Esau didn't want to be saved, he wanted the blessing. He was sad because he lost the blessing and the birthright. If Esau had had Godly repentance, he wouldn't have been concerned about material things, but instead eternal things and the state of his soul. He would have been concerned about his eternal inheritance.

2 Corinthians 7: 10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Perhaps no one can believe without God giving them faith, but even if He does give them faith. Are they saved? Even the demons believe. ( Jas 2:19; )
Also the Bible says God gives faith to ALL men, not just some. ( Rom 12:3; )
Yet even though they have this faith.. they reject Him.

Romans 12: 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

You think that means every person who has ever lived on planet earth? Come on that's too easy to shoot down.

It says "according as," and is also probably referring the beginning of the verse, "to every man that is among you." God distributes faith as He pleases. But to be among you means among the brethren. But not even all those who show up to fellowship have God-given faith. The devil always sows the tares amongst the wheat.

You've inspired me though, so I thank you. We need to define what the word Faith/believe means.

Grace to you,

Travis

 

[RJ]

I thought the rapture doctrine stated that the faithful are raptured, the unfaithful are "left behind"..but the left behind ones will still go to heaven when they die. These are the believers that pass through the tribulation "as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15).

• The Rapture and Tribulation are two different events, seperated from eah other and preeeded by the Rapture is it not?
• Certainly you're not saying that there will be some believers, those saved and with Christ in them, will not be removed during the Rapture?
• After Rapture and with those left behind and for some time period, there will be many un-believers with the chance to see the light and become saved. Unfortunately, they missed the Rapture and will have to suffer the pain of tribulation.
• Also don't forget the thousand-year reign of Christ, also called the Millennium, offers people who have not known Christ or His true expectations an opportunity to respond to Him. It is important to note that this is not a second chance. It will be the first and only chance for these people. The Bible teaches that everyone will have an opportunity to come to God (2 Peter:3:9). .9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 

[james1523]

• The Rapture and Tribulation are two different events, seperated from eah other and preeeded by the Rapture is it not?
• Certainly you're not saying that there will be some believers, those saved and with Christ in them, will not be removed during the Rapture?
• After Rapture and with those left behind and for some time period, there will be many un-believers with the chance to see the light and become saved. Unfortunately, they missed the Rapture and will have to suffer the pain of tribulation.
• Also don't forget the thousand-year reign of Christ, also called the Millennium, offers people who have not known Christ or His true expectations an opportunity to respond to Him. It is important to note that this is not a second chance. It will be the first and only chance for these people. The Bible teaches that everyone will have an opportunity to come to God (2 Peter:3:9). .9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Yes I believe there will be believers "left behind" on the earth during the tribulation. That's what Revelation 12:6 says. Jesus will keep them safe for the 3.5 years. I believe in the partial rapture doctrine, that there will be a number of raptures, just as there will be a number of resurrections (Rev 20:5-6). I don't believe that faith alone in Christ is enough to be raptured, because it's a special reward given to some specially blessed believers (Rev 20:5-6). The tribulation period is not designed to give them a "second chance", because they are already saved, it's meant to discipline them and train them. Paul disciplined and trained himself (1 Cor 9:27).

 

[B-A-C]

2 Corinthians 7: 10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Good ole King James. Perhaps a different translation will help.

(AMP) For godly grief and the pain God is permitted to direct, produce a repentance that leads and contributes to salvation and deliverance from evil, and it never brings regret; but worldly grief (the hopeless sorrow that is characteristic of the pagan world) is deadly [breeding and ending in death].

(ASV) For godly sorrow worketh repentance unto salvation, a repentance which bringeth no regret: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

(GNB) For the sadness that is used by God brings a change of heart that leads to salvation---and there is no regret in that! But sadness that is merely human causes death.

(GW) In fact, to be distressed in a godly way causes people to change the way they think and act and leads them to be saved. No one can regret that. But the distress that the world causes brings only death.

(HCSB) For godly grief produces a repentance not to be regretted and leading to salvation, but worldly grief produces death.

(ISV) For having sorrow in a godly way results in repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regrets. But the sorrow of the world produces death.

(KJV) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

(MKJV) For the grief according to God works repentance to salvation, not to be regretted, but the grief of the world works out death.

(MSG) Distress that drives us to God does that. It turns us around. It gets us back in the way of salvation. We never regret that kind of pain. But those who let distress drive them away from God are full of regrets, end up on a deathbed of regrets.

(NAS77) For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation; but the sorrow of the world produces death.

(NASB) For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.

(NIrV) Godly sadness causes us to turn away from our sins and be saved. And we are certainly not sorry about that! But worldly sadness brings death.

(NIV) Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.

(NLT) For the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience leads us away from sin and results in salvation. There's no regret for that kind of sorrow. But worldly sorrow, which lacks repentance, results in spiritual death.