Saved by force?

[B-A-C]

I have often wondered about the past. In medieval times the "Christian church" (i.e. the Roman Catholic church) sent several crusades to the middle east
to "convert" non-Christians to Christianity. Most of the time this was something like "change your theology or die".
Yet I have often wondered if this is the way Jesus would have evangelized?
Some of the muslim world is doing the same thing. They are killing people who refuse to convert to Islam.

I have always believed I could hold a gun to your head and make you say anything I wanted to make you say. But even if you do say it...
would you believe it in your heart?

Does God want people who say they believe in Jesus... but yet in their heart they really don't?
For that matter, does God really want people that have to be forced to "convert" to believing in Jesus or else..?
I can't help but believe God wants those who choose to follow him on their own. Not because they were forced.

I could take this thought a little further, and talk about one of the things that separates a large protestant denomination from most of the others.
It seems that some believe God forces some people to become Christians and there is nothing they can do about it.
These same people believe that God forces other people not to become Christians and there is nothing they can do about it.
There really is no choice in this theology. Those who are saved are only that way because God forced them to be that way.
If you follow this thought a little further... everything that happens (even evil, sin, murder, rape, etc...) only happens because God makes it happen.
Therefore whether you believe in God/Jesus or not, if you sin.. it is ultimately God's fault because he made you sin.

This is similar to once saved always saved and predestination, but slightly different. Usually they go hand in hand.
The thought here is... once the Holy Spirit dwells in me he never leaves. I am as saved as I'm ever going to be. It doesn't matter
how much I sin, (after all God is the one making me sin, and in fact you may believe you are saved for a few years... but ultimately if you do too many
bad sins, well that means you were never saved in the first place (and of course even God forced this to happen).

It is almost as if these people believe once you are saved.. you still have no freedom of choice.. in fact you become even more of a robot.
To them having Jesus in your heart and the Holy Spirit dwelling in you means they can never leave and you have no choice in the matter.
Yet I see literally dozens of scriptures that say otherwise.

One of the things I see in this theology is something like.. well it doesn't matter if I keep on sinning, because Jesus already paid for all my sins.
I am reminded of a casino study I read once. It stated that if they make people by tokens instead of actually placing coins in the slot machines they tend to spend a lot more
because they don't actually see the actually money.. only the tokens that represent it.
Again what I see in scripture is that sin paid on a "as required" basis. Also I see that confessed sin is forgiven, but I do not see the same promise for un-confessed sin.

For those who believe that Jesus forces our actions to always be righteous and the Holy Spirit refuses to let us slide or fail, I wonder what scriptures there are to support this?
I notice that when Jesus sent the disciples out into the world, he didn't tell them to keep debating or force them to be saved. He simply said if they don't receive you
wipe the dust off your feet and move on.

 

[RJ]

I have often wondered about the past. In medieval times the "Christian church" (i.e. the Roman Catholic church) sent several crusades to the middle east
to "convert" non-Christians to Christianity. Most of the time this was something like "change your theology or die".
Yet I have often wondered if this is the way Jesus would have evangelized?
Some of the muslim world is doing the same thing. They are killing people who refuse to convert to Islam.

I have always believed I could hold a gun to your head and make you say anything I wanted to make you say. But even if you do say it...
would you believe it in your heart?

Does God want people who say they believe in Jesus... but yet in their heart they really don't?
For that matter, does God really want people that have to be forced to "convert" to believing in Jesus or else..?
I can't help but believe God wants those who choose to follow him on their own. Not because they were forced.

I could take this thought a little further, and talk about one of the things that separates a large protestant denomination from most of the others.
It seems that some believe God forces some people to become Christians and there is nothing they can do about it.
These same people believe that God forces other people not to become Christians and there is nothing they can do about it.
There really is no choice in this theology. Those who are saved are only that way because God forced them to be that way.
If you follow this thought a little further... everything that happens (even evil, sin, murder, rape, etc...) only happens because God makes it happen.
Therefore whether you believe in God/Jesus or not, if you sin.. it is ultimately God's fault because he made you sin.

This is similar to once saved always saved and predestination, but slightly different. Usually they go hand in hand.
The thought here is... once the Holy Spirit dwells in me he never leaves. I am as saved as I'm ever going to be. It doesn't matter
how much I sin, (after all God is the one making me sin, and in fact you may believe you are saved for a few years... but ultimately if you do too many
bad sins, well that means you were never saved in the first place (and of course even God forced this to happen).

It is almost as if these people believe once you are saved.. you still have no freedom of choice.. in fact you become even more of a robot.
To them having Jesus in your heart and the Holy Spirit dwelling in you means they can never leave and you have no choice in the matter.
Yet I see literally dozens of scriptures that say otherwise.

One of the things I see in this theology is something like.. well it doesn't matter if I keep on sinning, because Jesus already paid for all my sins.
I am reminded of a casino study I read once. It stated that if they make people by tokens instead of actually placing coins in the slot machines they tend to spend a lot more
because they don't actually see the actually money.. only the tokens that represent it.
Again what I see in scripture is that sin paid on a "as required" basis. Also I see that confessed sin is forgiven, but I do not see the same promise for un-confessed sin.

For those who believe that Jesus forces our actions to always be righteous and the Holy Spirit refuses to let us slide or fail, I wonder what scriptures there are to support this?
I notice that when Jesus sent the disciples out into the world, he didn't tell them to keep debating or force them to be saved. He simply said if they don't receive you
wipe the dust off your feet and move on.

• If you were Born Again by the spirit of God, if you were really saved and you know in your heart who Jesus is, how can you return to Aposatasy and rejection of the one who lives in you?...Especially when he said he would never leave or reject you? It is a heart thing. Is he in your heart? Once there, no matter what you do or think you have done, there is no condemnation.
• It is almost as if these people believe once you are saved.. you still have no freedom of choice ...I don't get this?....Let's see...Hmmm...You are saved, which means that Christ now lives in you but now, do to the freedom of choice, you reject Christ and he leaves from with in you and when He said he would never leave or forsake you! So you freely ask him in and you are saved, then you freely ask him to leave and you are now unsaved? I guess, do to freedom of choice, you can repeat this as often as you wish.....St. Paul mentioned this: how many times do you think you can crucify the Lord?
• I really think you either don't understand or can't accerpt the finality of the cross and God's saving grace!

 

[james1523]

I have often wondered about the past. In medieval times the "Christian church" (i.e. the Roman Catholic church) sent several crusades to the middle east
to "convert" non-Christians to Christianity. Most of the time this was something like "change your theology or die".
Yet I have often wondered if this is the way Jesus would have evangelized?
Some of the muslim world is doing the same thing. They are killing people who refuse to convert to Islam.

I have always believed I could hold a gun to your head and make you say anything I wanted to make you say. But even if you do say it...
would you believe it in your heart?

Does God want people who say they believe in Jesus... but yet in their heart they really don't?
For that matter, does God really want people that have to be forced to "convert" to believing in Jesus or else..?
I can't help but believe God wants those who choose to follow him on their own. Not because they were forced.

I could take this thought a little further, and talk about one of the things that separates a large protestant denomination from most of the others.
It seems that some believe God forces some people to become Christians and there is nothing they can do about it.
These same people believe that God forces other people not to become Christians and there is nothing they can do about it.
There really is no choice in this theology. Those who are saved are only that way because God forced them to be that way.
If you follow this thought a little further... everything that happens (even evil, sin, murder, rape, etc...) only happens because God makes it happen.
Therefore whether you believe in God/Jesus or not, if you sin.. it is ultimately God's fault because he made you sin.

This is similar to once saved always saved and predestination, but slightly different. Usually they go hand in hand.
The thought here is... once the Holy Spirit dwells in me he never leaves. I am as saved as I'm ever going to be. It doesn't matter
how much I sin, (after all God is the one making me sin, and in fact you may believe you are saved for a few years... but ultimately if you do too many
bad sins, well that means you were never saved in the first place (and of course even God forced this to happen).

It is almost as if these people believe once you are saved.. you still have no freedom of choice.. in fact you become even more of a robot.
To them having Jesus in your heart and the Holy Spirit dwelling in you means they can never leave and you have no choice in the matter.
Yet I see literally dozens of scriptures that say otherwise.

One of the things I see in this theology is something like.. well it doesn't matter if I keep on sinning, because Jesus already paid for all my sins.
I am reminded of a casino study I read once. It stated that if they make people by tokens instead of actually placing coins in the slot machines they tend to spend a lot more
because they don't actually see the actually money.. only the tokens that represent it.
Again what I see in scripture is that sin paid on a "as required" basis. Also I see that confessed sin is forgiven, but I do not see the same promise for un-confessed sin.

For those who believe that Jesus forces our actions to always be righteous and the Holy Spirit refuses to let us slide or fail, I wonder what scriptures there are to support this?
I notice that when Jesus sent the disciples out into the world, he didn't tell them to keep debating or force them to be saved. He simply said if they don't receive you
wipe the dust off your feet and move on.

Then for what purpose is God's chastisement, other than to force our actions to be righteous? (Heb 12:10)
How is such salvation by force, much different to a Christian parent forcing their children to pray, read the Bible, and go to church every Sunday, even though they may not want to?

 

[Travis]

Now this is a topic I'd like to dig my teeth into.

I don't have much time now... but for starters.

Here's the thing. I want God to force me to be saved. I really do. I don't want to rely upon my own ability to save myself one bit. That scares me because I am not dependable. God is perfectly dependable though. I think there in lies the miracle. God changed my will so that I want to be saved by him. That means admitting that I am a great sinner, and I can't save myself. My will wants God to force me to be saved. I don't have a problem with it at all, and it doesn't make me feel like a robot. It makes me feel like a sheep following a shepherd. I'm not sure where I am going (other than what I have heard), how long it will take to get there, or what will be along the way... But as long as He is close by me, I feel confident I will make it to the end. If someone doesn't want to be saved by God, or forced to by saved by him, that's fine with me too. They can choose not be saved by Him I guess. Whatever they want. But, I want to be saved by God; it's totally, 100% A Ok with me.

I pretty much agree with Charles and John Wesley on this one (whichever one wrote this at least):

Hymn 158

"O my God, what must I do?
Thou alone the way canst show;
Thou canst save me in this hour;
I have neither will nor power:
God, if over all thou art,
Greater than my sinful heart,
All thy power on me be shown,
Take away the heart of stone.

Take away my darling sin,
Make me willing to be clean;
Make me willing to receive
All thy goodness waits to give.
Force me, Lord, with all to part;
Tear these idols from my heart;
Now thy love almighty show,
Make even me a creature new.

Jesus, mighty to renew,
Work in me to will and do;
Turn my nature's rapid tide,
Stem the torrent of my pride;
Stop the whirlwind of my will;
Speak, and bid the sun stand still;
Now thy love almighty show,
Make even me a creature new.

Arm of God, thy strength put on;
Bow the heavens, and come down;
All my unbelief o'erthrow;
Lay th' aspiring mountain low:
Conquer thy worst foe in me,
Get thyself the victory;
Save the vilest of the race;
Force me to be saved by grace."

 

[B-A-C]

If you were Born Again by the spirit of God, if you were really saved and you know in your heart who Jesus is, how can you return to Aposatasy and rejection of the one who lives in you?...Especially when he said he would never leave or reject you? It is a heart thing. Is he in your heart? Once there, no matter what you do or think you have done, there is no condemnation.
It is almost as if these people believe once you are saved.. you still have no freedom of choice ...I don't get this?....Let's see...Hmmm...You are saved, which means that Christ now lives in you but now, do to the freedom of choice, you reject Christ and he leaves from with in you and when He said he would never leave or forsake you! So you freely ask him in and you are saved, then you freely ask him to leave and you are now unsaved? I guess, do to freedom of choice, you can repeat this as often as you wish.....St. Paul mentioned this: how many times do you think you can crucify the Lord?
I really think you either don't understand or can't accerpt the finality of the cross and God's saving grace!

... It says he will never leave or forsake us, yes... but there is nothing that says we can't leave or forsake him. (Heb 13:5 But he won't force you to stay if you really want to leave.
.... Yes, Jesus is only crucified once. But Hebrews 6:2-6; says some people who have already tasted the Holy Spirit and Word of God fall away, if they do it is impossible
to return back to Christ because that is re-crucifying him.
.... It is entirely possible to fall away.
1 Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
.... It is entirely possible to return to the vomit and mud pit you came from.
( Prov 26:11; )
Peter says those who have escape the world by the knowledge of God can return to the life they were living before.
2 Pet 2:20; For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2 Pet 2:21; For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
2 Pet 2:22; It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."
Jesus appointed 70 other disciples besides the original 12.
John 6:66; As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
John 6:67; So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" .. .. .. (was Judas one of these 12?)

Save the vilest of the race;
Force me to be saved by grace."

It is a nice song, but it isn't scripture. I can assure you that John Wesley didn't believe in OSAS. Quite the contrary.

In Matt 25:1-13; All 10 of the virgins had oil in their lamps at the beginning of the story. Somewhere along the way they ran out of oil.
I wonder if the master would have let them in if they would have still had oil in their lamps?

Keep in mind, even Satan was an anointed angel in heaven at one point. ( Ezek 28:14; Luke 10:18; )

 

[B-A-C]

Then for what purpose is God's chastisement, other than to force our actions to be righteous? (Heb 12:10)
How is such salvation by force, much different to a Christian parent forcing their children to pray, read the Bible, and go to church every Sunday, even though they may not want to?

I am not saying He just lets us walk away. I believe He does use circumstances to lead us back to Him. (Heb 12:6-11 I believe He wants us to always stay with Him.
In fact I believe He wants ALL men to come to repentance, not just some.
( Prov 3:11; Prov 12:1; Prov 13:1; Eph 6:4; 2 Tim 1:7; Rev 3:19; )

2 Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
1 Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1 Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

But some are simply unwilling.

Acts 7:39; "Our fathers were unwilling to be obedient to him, but repudiated him and in their hearts turned back to Egypt,
Acts 7:51; "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
John 5:43; "I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, you will receive him.

 

[B-A-C]

Here's the thing. I want God to force me to be saved. I really do. I don't want to rely upon my own ability to save myself one bit

Some might take the sentence above as a contradiction in terms.
"I want" (.. God to..) That's the key. We have to want it. And yes He does help us, persuade us, and use circumstances to steer us.
But despite all those things.. some people remain hardened against Him.

 

[RJ]

... It says he will never leave or forsake us, yes... but there is nothing that says we can't leave or forsake him. (Heb 13:5 But he won't force you to stay if you really want to leave.
.... Yes, Jesus is only crucified once. But Hebrews 6:2-6; says some people who have already tasted the Holy Spirit and Word of God fall away, if they do it is impossible
to return back to Christ because that is re-crucifying him.
.... It is entirely possible to fall away.
1 Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
.... It is entirely possible to return to the vomit and mud pit you came from.
( Prov 26:11; )
Peter says those who have escape the world by the knowledge of God can return to the life they were living before.
2 Pet 2:20; For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2 Pet 2:21; For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
2 Pet 2:22; It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."
Jesus appointed 70 other disciples besides the original 12.
John 6:66; As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
John 6:67; So Jesus said to the twelve, "You do not want to go away also, do you?" .. .. .. (was Judas one of these 12?)



It is a nice song, but it isn't scripture. I can assure you that John Wesley didn't believe in OSAS. Quite the contrary.

In Matt 25:1-13; All 10 of the virgins had oil in their lamps at the beginning of the story. Somewhere along the way they ran out of oil.
I wonder if the master would have let them in if they would have still had oil in their lamps?

Keep in mind, even Satan was an anointed angel in heaven at one point. ( Ezek 28:14; Luke 10:18; )[/QUOT

• Brother, there is so much hear that I disagree with, I will try to address just two:

1. But Hebrews 6:2-6; says some people who have already tasted the Holy Spirit and Word of God fall away, if they do it is impossible
   to return back to Christ because that is re-crucifying him.
   .... It is entirely possible to fall away. My point exactly but, alas, it is different than yours. This is what I beleive is being said here:

• First, you have a saved person.
• Then they fall way. This is not a mere pulling back or a drifting away but all out Apostasy, unbelief and rejection of Christ.
• Let's look at it your way. So this person falls away. I am assuming that you think that this person, as long as they are alive, can follow there choice and come back to Christ and be saved again. People, from time to time, fall way but are still allowed to come back to salvation again, right?
• Now look at it my way. The writer of Hebrews is saying: if you where once saved, Christ living in you (B.T.W.,how do you fall away if God is in you), it is impossible to fall away. Christ died once and died for all. If you were to fall away, as you say, then the writer of Hebrews is saying then you can't come back to Christ because, the only way that you could is if Christ would crawl back up on the cross for you again, much to his humiliation and that is simply not going to happen!
• All 10 of the virgins had oil in their lamps at the beginning of the story. Somewhere along the way they ran out of oil.
  I wonder if the master would have let them in if they would have still had oil in their lamps This actually helps support my first point. Just like the "Fallen Away" above, the virgins are symbolic of us and if you are saved with the living waters of Christ in you, where by you will never thirst and symbolically you will never run out of oil for the lamp that lights your way. Like the "Fallen Away", the virgins who run out of oil, were never saved in the first place.

 

[Travis]

Some might take the sentence above as a contradiction in terms.
"I want" (.. God to..) That's the key. We have to want it. And yes He does help us, persuade us, and use circumstances to steer us.
But despite all those things.. some people remain hardened against Him.

I need to word this very carefully, because I don't want anyone who reads this to think that I agree with you on this topic, when I do not.

No one will be saved by God who does not ultimately want to be saved by God.
No one can truly desire to be saved by God, in the Way (singular) he has provided, without God moving in them.
No one can have the faith (which God's Grace flows through) required to be saved unless God freely gives it to them.

There will not be anyone who enters into God's glory in the soon approaching future who will not want to be there.

God did a miracle in my heart, changing it from one that hates and doesn't want to have anything to do with Him, to a new heart that desires to follow him. If anyone can bring that about by their own efforts, I would love to hear and learn how they did it. If one can do that, then they can surely earn their own salvation.

Grace to you,

Travis

 

[james1523]

All 10 of the virgins had oil in their lamps at the beginning of the story. Somewhere along the way they ran out of oil.
I wonder if the master would have let them in if they would have still had oil in their lamps This actually helps support my first point. Just like the "Fallen Away" above, the virgins are symbolic of us and if you are saved with the living waters of Christ in you, where by you will never thirst and symbolically you will never run out of oil for the lamp that lights your way. Like the "Fallen Away", the virgins who run out of oil, were never saved in the first place.

No, virgins signify true saved born again believers (2 Cor 11:2) who are regenerated and have the Spirit joined to their spirit, and oil signifies the Spirit (Isaiah 61:1, Heb 1:9) and the vessel signifies the human soul (mind, emotions, will, conscience). Virgins who run out of oil signify believers who do not let the Spirit into their soul to be transformed, and remain in the world (their enjoyment of the world quenches the Spirit in them). But virgin believers without oil, are barely saved, as through fire (1 Cor 3:15). Paul uses a similar analogy in 1 Cor 3, but uses the symbol of building with worthless (the world) versus valuable materials (The Holy Spirit).

 

[RJ]

No, virgins signify true saved born again believers (2 Cor 11:2) who are regenerated and have the Spirit joined to their spirit, and oil signifies the Spirit (Isaiah 61:1, Heb 1:9) and the vessel signifies the human soul (mind, emotions, will, conscience). Virgins who run out of oil signify believers who do not let the Spirit into their soul to be transformed, and remain in the world (their enjoyment of the world quenches the Spirit in them). But virgin believers without oil, are barely saved, as through fire (1 Cor 3:15). Paul uses a similar analogy in 1 Cor 3, but uses the symbol of building with worthless (the world) versus valuable materials (The Holy Spirit).

• Only five my friend!
• The facts of the story are straightforward. Five of the virgins were wise and five were foolish. Just who are these 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins? If they are all believers then why the division? Are there two different groups of people within the beloved Congregation of God? And if so, what is it that distinguishes them from each other?
• Five wise virgins who lamps did not run out of oil...they are distinguished by being the true believers.
• Five virgians who ran out of oil...they were never saved in the first place and distinguish themselves as unbelievers.
• Look around, in your own church some have oil some don't.
• We'll just have to disagree on the virgians but we can agree that Jesus is Lord.

 

[james1523]

• Only five my friend!
• The facts of the story are straightforward. Five of the virgins were wise and five were foolish. Just who are these 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins? If they are all believers then why the division? Are there two different groups of people within the beloved Congregation of God? And if so, what is it that distinguishes them from each other?
• Five wise virgins who lamps did not run out of oil...they are distinguished by being the true believers.
• Five virgians who ran out of oil...they were never saved in the first place and distinguish themselves as unbelievers.
• Look around, in your own church some have oil some don't.
• We'll just have to disagree on the virgians but we can agree that Jesus is Lord.

The link to the virgin story is Revelation 19.
Rev 19:7 says the wife has made herself ready. - these are the wise virgins.
Ready for what? Salvation? No.. making ourselves ready for salvation is salvation by works.
It is ready for the wedding feast - Revelation 19:9.
The wedding feast is a reward to faithful believers which occurs at the start of the millennial reign of Christ.
It's the big party when Christ comes back at the end of the tribulation period.
But things aren't over yet, there's another 1000 years to live and Satan has to be released yet for the final battle.
If these virgins are unsaved and burning in hell, why are they at the door asking to be let in? (Matt 25:11).
I think they lose their reward but not their salvation. 1 Cor 3:15 is fairly clear that some believers will lose rewards but still be saved.

 

[RJ]

The link to the virgin story is Revelation 19.
Rev 19:7 says the wife has made herself ready. - these are the wise virgins.
Ready for what? Salvation? No.. making ourselves ready for salvation is salvation by works.
It is ready for the wedding feast - Revelation 19:9.
The wedding feast is a reward to faithful believers which occurs at the start of the millennial reign of Christ.
It's the big party when Christ comes back at the end of the tribulation period.
But things aren't over yet, there's another 1000 years to live and Satan has to be released yet for the final battle.
If these virgins are unsaved and burning in hell, why are they at the door asking to be let in? (Matt 25:11).
I think they lose their reward but not their salvation. 1 Cor 3:15 is fairly clear that some believers will lose rewards but still be saved.

• We continue to disagree. The beautiful parable is more about the Rapture than not. There will be many "so called" Christians who will miss the rapture and the unwise virgins are symbolic of those actual non-believers who will be left behind. When Jesus, The Bridegroom, returns and calls his church of believers, many people will say Lord-Lord and Jesus will say I don't know you...being saved and having no rewards is not possible in heaven, is rediculous and counter to what God has said about believers sharing in Christ's inheritence.
• We have crossed paths many times and will have to agree to disagree.
• I will give you the last word but I have said all I can on this subject.

 

[james1523]

• We continue to disagree. The beautiful parable is more about the Rapture than not. There will be many "so called" Christians who will miss the rapture and the unwise virgins are symbolic of those actual non-believers who will be left behind. When Jesus, The Bridegroom, returns and calls his church of believers, many people will say Lord-Lord and Jesus will say I don't know you...being saved and having no rewards is not possible in heaven, is rediculous and counter to what God has said about believers sharing in Christ's inheritence.
• We have crossed paths many times and will have to agree to disagree.
• I will give you the last word but I have said all I can on this subject.

I thought the rapture doctrine stated that the faithful are raptured, the unfaithful are "left behind"..but the left behind ones will still go to heaven when they die. These are the believers that pass through the tribulation "as through fire" (1 Cor 3:15).

 

[Travis]

5 of the virgins are fools. 5 of the virgins are wise. I do not believe It is the fact that they are virgins which is the key here, the key as that 5 of them are fools.

Fools are not believers, in fact, this is what they say in their heart:

Psalms 14
1 [To the chief Musician, [A Psalm of David.]] The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.​

We are all fools aside from the grace of God. Not one of us does any good, aside from the grace of God. No fool will be saved at the judgement seat (both if you think there are two). It is only by the grace of God that any manor woman ceases to be a fool, and becomes wise. All the wise will shine forth like the sun on that day.

The virgins who were fools had oil in their lamps for this reason:

Acts 17
28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.​

Everyone who is alive is living, moving, and having their being in Him. We all partake in the life which he gives us. For the 5 virgins who are fools, their partaking in Him will only last this lifetime. Once it is over, and judgement has been passed, they are gone from the presence of the Lord for good. The five virgins who are wise though, they have everlasting life. They will never cease to be in the presence of the Lord for all eternity.

One is either a sheep or a goat, one is either a wheat or a tare, one is either a wise virgin or a foolish virgin. Judgement day is approaching, it would be best to determine which one you are right now. The Good News (gospel) is that if you determine that you are a tare, goat, or foolish virgin, you can repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to save you. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father, except by Him.

Grace to you,

Travis

 

[james1523]

There are a number of clues that these parables are for believers, not unbelievers:
His audience - Matt 24:3 , Jesus is telling these parables privately to his disciples.
His statement - Mat 24:10 - many will turn away from Christ. These are believers who have fallen away, not unbelievers.

A few facts from Matt 25 which indicates these are not unbelievers:
1.All the virgins responded to the bridegroom's cry, and trimmed their lamps (vs 6,7) - Unbelievers do not do this.
2. The foolish were concerned about not having enough oil (vs 8) - again, unbelievers are not concerned about this.
3. The foolish called Jesus Lord (vs 11) - again, not unbelievers because the Bible says only those with the Holy Spirit can call Jesus Lord (1 Cor 12:3).

 

[B-A-C]

Five virgians who ran out of oil...they were never saved in the first place and distinguish themselves as unbelievers.
Look around, in your own church some have oil some don't.

Ahhh... but it doesn't say they never had oil. It says they had it and then ran out.
Before they ran out of oil, thy were identical to the other five.

 

[Travis]

Before they ran out of oil, thy were identical to the other five.

Except for the fact that they were fools?

 

[B-A-C]

If these virgins are unsaved and burning in hell, why are they at the door asking to be let in? (Matt 25:11).
I think they lose their reward but not their salvation. 1 Cor 3:15 is fairly clear that some believers will lose rewards but still be saved

Is it possible to be saved without Jesus? Can you be saved if He doesn't know you?

Matt 25:11; "Later the other virgins also came, saying, 'Lord, lord, open up for us.'
Matt 25:12; "But he answered, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.'

Is running out of oil a temporary thing? If you go get some and then come back later is that good enough?

 

[B-A-C]

Except for the fact that they were fools?

What determined the fact that they were fools?

Eccl 6:8; For what advantage does the wise man have over the fool? What advantage does the poor man have, knowing how to walk before the living?

Solomon was a wise man, but in the end that didn't save him. ( 1 Kings 11:1-8; )