Rewards (Not Salvation) for our Works

[james1523]

At Christ's return, every believer will appear before Christ's judgement seat, to receive reward or punishment according to what they have done, not what they believe.

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Rom 14:10 You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat them with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat.
Matt 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
Rev 22:12 "Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.

This is completely different from the doctrines taught today, that Christ will accept us only based upon what we believe (or how well we answer some hypothetical "why should I let you into Heaven"? questions).

That we will be judged for our works is the reason why we should fear the Lord and be careful about how we live (2 Cor 5:11).
Remark: there is a doctrine in Christianity that says that we should fear (respect) God because we love Him. But love for our local policeman, for example, is not the reason we stay under the speed limit. We stay under the speed limit because we are scared of getting fined or even going to jail. We should fear God (yes, literally fear Him) because He will judge our works and does have the power to throw into hell.

I think the Bible is quite clear that what we do is important. But if we say that the reward for a believer is Heaven and the punishment is Hell, then our doctrine is a salvation by works (Eph 2:8-9) and this sort of doctrine is what the Catholics believe.

The apostle Paul says that if our works do not pass the test... we shall still be saved:

1 Cor 3
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.


14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.


15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.


In general, most Christians have a very simplistic view of salvation -" if you believe in Christ, you are saved, but if you commit sins and don't repent, you will go to hell. Or, if you believe in Christ, and commit sins and go to hell, you were never a "true believer" to begin with. If you don't believe in Christ, you will go to hell." It doesn't matter if we have a Calvinistic or Arminian interpretation, the problem is that this kind of heaven or hell theology is not according to the revelation of the Bible. Not seeing the difference between rewards and salvation, faith and works, is one of the reasons why many Christians are confused about this matter, and it leads to all sorts of debates. There is one view that can reconcile both the Calvinist and Arminian interpretations, and that is the truth of the Bible, which is a doctrine of belief for permanent salvation, and rewards and punishment based on works, which have nothing to do with our salvation.
This will help to satisfy the Arminian, that a believer cannot simply believe in Christ and go to heaven no matter what they do, they must be held to account for their sins.
This will also help satisfy the Calvinist, who believe that a believer cannot ever lose their salvation, because regeneration by the Holy Spirit is a permanent thing.

Understanding that rewards and salvation are completely different things, also helps answer the questions to

• what is the difference between outer darkness (Matt 22:13, Matt 25:30) and hell (lake of fire)?
• How can a saved person, be invited to a wedding feast, and yet be cast out for having no wedding garment? (Matt 22:11-14).
• What does it mean to be called and to be chosen? does this mean that only few will be saved? (Matt 22:14)
• If all the believers are in Heaven and all the unbelievers in hell, who are the nations living outside of the New Jerusalem (Rev 21 24:25)?
• In the teaching about the sheep and goats, why is Jesus saving the sheep based upon what they do and not what they believe? (Matt 25:31-46).

 

[Travis]

The Parable of the Talents

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’


Are all three of these servants in this parable born again?
Are all three of these servants in this parable believers?

 

[B-A-C]

Are all three of these servants in this parable born again?
Are all three of these servants in this parable believers?

The Calvinst who believes in once saved always saved cannot say they are saved here.

However on the other hand, they were members of the master household. Obviously they did believe in the master.
Even the wicked servant knew the master well enough to say "I knew you were a hard man", so obviously he knew the master expectations.

Even the kingdom of heaven has tares and bad fish in it (for the time being). Matt 13:24-30; Matt 13:47-49;

Luke 13:24; "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Luke 13:25; "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.'
Luke 13:26; "Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets';
Luke 13:27; and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'

We see the people in the passage above striving to enter the gate (these aren't lost sinners who haven't heard about Jesus).
They also called Him Lord, and recognized he was the gate-keeper (the way, the truth and the life). They even dined and heard His teachings.
So why didn't He let them in?

The Kingdom of heaven also has wise and foolish virgins in it. (Matt 25:1-12
These also called Him Lord and were expecting to be a part of the wedding feast. Yet they ran out of oil at some point.
Why didn't He let these people in?

I agree with James that we will be judged for rewards (1 Cor 3:11-14
But I definitely don't believe that's all we will be judged on.

1 Pet 4:18; AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?

 

[B-A-C]

Being thrown out.

It's interesting... I can never be thrown out out of a place that I've never been.
If I've never been inside your house. You can't throw me out.

Yet the Bible is full of passages that talk about people being "thrown out" and "cast out".
Thrown out of what? Cast out of what?

Matt 3:10; "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Matt 5:13; "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
Can those who are the salt of the earth really become tasteless? If so, are they really no longer fit for anything except to be thrown out? ( Luke 14:35
Matt 5:29; "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell
Can we stumble? Can we stumble enough to eventually be thrown into hell?
Matt 7:19; "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. (Notice this is 2 verses before the controversial Matt 7:21
Luke 13:28; "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.
(Notice this one verse after the controversial Luke 13:27; )
John 15:6; "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
John 15:7; "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
What are the words of Jesus that must abide in us in order to keep from being dried up (tasteless, fruitless) and thrown into the fire?
Rev 12:13; And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. (Luke 10:18
Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Matt 8:12; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Can those who are already in the kingdom be thrown into the outer darkness?
Matt 18:34; "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
Will the Lord really hand some over to be tortured?
Matt 13:41; "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Will Jesus really gather those up who are stumbling blocks and commit lawlessness in His kingdom and throw them into the fire?
Matt 13:49; "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
Matt 13:50; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 25:30; "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Will Jesus really throw some of His servants into the outer darkness?
Rev 2:21; 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
Rev 2:22; 'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.
Will God really throw some members of the church onto a bed of sickness and others into great tribulation unless they repent?

Luke 13:7; "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luke 13:8; "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"
Why would Jesus be looking for fruit on this tree? If He was expecting to find fruit and there was none, why would He remove this tree from His vineyard and cut it down?

 

[james1523]

Being thrown out.

It's interesting... I can never be thrown out out of a place that I've never been.
If I've never been inside your house. You can't throw me out.

Yet the Bible is full of passages that talk about people being "thrown out" and "cast out".
Thrown out of what? Cast out of what?

Matt 3:10; "The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Matt 5:13; "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
Can those who are the salt of the earth really become tasteless? If so, are they really no longer fit for anything except to be thrown out? ( Luke 14:35
Matt 5:29; "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell
Can we stumble? Can we stumble enough to eventually be thrown into hell?
Matt 7:19; "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. (Notice this is 2 verses before the controversial Matt 7:21
Luke 13:28; "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.
(Notice this one verse after the controversial Luke 13:27; )
John 15:6; "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
John 15:7; "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
What are the words of Jesus that must abide in us in order to keep from being dried up (tasteless, fruitless) and thrown into the fire?
Rev 12:13; And when the dragon saw that he was thrown down to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male child. (Luke 10:18
Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Matt 8:12; but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Can those who are already in the kingdom be thrown into the outer darkness?
Matt 18:34; "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
Will the Lord really hand some over to be tortured?
Matt 13:41; "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Will Jesus really gather those up who are stumbling blocks and commit lawlessness in His kingdom and throw them into the fire?
Matt 13:49; "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,
Matt 13:50; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Matt 25:30; "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Will Jesus really throw some of His servants into the outer darkness?
Rev 2:21; 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
Rev 2:22; 'Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds.
Will God really throw some members of the church onto a bed of sickness and others into great tribulation unless they repent?

Luke 13:7; "And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?'
Luke 13:8; "And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer;
Luke 13:9; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"
Why would Jesus be looking for fruit on this tree? If He was expecting to find fruit and there was none, why would He remove this tree from His vineyard and cut it down?

If we look carefully, we can see that the wicked (unbelievers) , and those who don't have their name in the book of life, are thrown into the fire (of hell). But the unfaithful servants, the sons of the kingdom, go to outer darkness.

Regarding the branches burned in fire... perhaps it is not the fire of hell Jesus is talking about, but the fire of judgment and testing, afterwhich the believer will still be saved:
1 Cor 3
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work.
14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.
15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

 

[james1523]

The Parable of the Talents

14 “For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away.16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’


Are all three of these servants in this parable born again?
Are all three of these servants in this parable believers?

I agree with BAC, in that I believe the servants are born again believers. Unbelievers don't call Jesus master, neither does Jesus give them talents (spiritual gifts and abilities to be used in God's service).

However I disagree with BAC, on the meaning of outer darkness. I believe it is temporal punishment, not hell fire. Looking carefully at the verses BAC posted, the wicked unbelievers and those with names not found in the book of life, go to hell fire (eternal destruction, the second death), but the unfaithful servants, the sons of the kingdom, go to outer darkness. To believe outer darkness is hellfire, is essentially to believe that if we don't serve God faithfully with our gifts and talents, we will go to hell, which means we are not saved by grace through faith, but by works. For this reason, to reconcile with the rest of scripture which talks about salvation by grace through faith as God's gift (not of ourselves), I cannot see that outer darkness means hell fire, or if it does mean hellfire, it is only a temporary thing. The goal of God's chastisement of His children, whether by outer darkness or hellfire, is ultimately restoration. The goal of God's affliction on the unbelievers, however, is eternal destruction. All of those unfaithful servants who are cast out of the kingdom, will miss out on the millennial kingdom on Earth and the blessings which come with that, but will ultimately be restored and brought back into the kingdom, once their punishment has repayed their crime (Matt 18:34).

 

[Travis]

I guess I need to clarify, this kind of confusion happens often enough though. I am not a Calvinist, I think it would be quite silly to call oneself after a sinful human who wasn't born until well over a millennia after Christ was on earth. If were to call myself by any other sinful human being's name, I'd call myself a Paulist or something. But that sounds even more silly to me. I don't read Calvin's books, commentaries, or much of anything he wrote. I read some things from both those who have called themselves Arminians, and those who have called themselves Calvinists. The Lord Jesus Christ has spoke to me through the writings of both, despite their adherence to doctrines of men. Just so that is clear.

Matthew 24 is pretty famous and well known, the Olivet discourse:

Matthew 24 ESV
1 Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, "You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down." 3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"​

The rest of the chapter and the following chapter (25) are Jesus's response to this question about the end of the age, and what Jesus want's to tell his disciples about it. So, talking about the end of the age, Jesus says, "Then the kingdom of heaven will be like...." and goes on to tell about the parable of wise and foolish virgins. The parable is about what it will be like at the end of the age, when Jesus returns in his Glory.

Then, right after that parable, Jesus starts in on another parable saying, "For it (the kingdom of heaven) will be like..." He is talking about the Kingdom of Heaven and what it will be like at the end of the age, when Jesus returns from his "long journey."

Finally, right after that parable, Jesus tells one final parable, and starts with this, "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne..."

It seems to me that the theme of this whole thing is the end of the age and Jesus's second coming. All of these parables are about what it will be like at the end of the age when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (Rev. 11:15), at the time Jesus begins to reign:

Revelation 11 ESV
17 saying, "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, for you have taken your great power and begun to reign. 18 The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."​

Perhaps these three parables in Matthew 25 are all different ways of looking at the same thing. Is that too much of a stretch? I don't think it is. It seems that they are all about what the judgement will be like when Jesus returns in his Glory. In all three parables we can see who is going to be accepted, and who is going to be rejected. So, it would seem important for us to determine why one group in each parable get's rejected, and why the other group get's accepted. These are quite important things I think.

I look forward to going into more detail on this,

Grace to you,

Travis

 

[james1523]

I guess I need to clarify, this kind of confusion happens often enough though. I am not a Calvinist, I think it would be quite silly to call oneself after a sinful human who wasn't born until well over a millennia after Christ was on earth. If were to call myself by any other sinful human being's name, I'd call myself a Paulist or something. But that sounds even more silly to me. I don't read Calvin's books, commentaries, or much of anything he wrote. I read some things from both those who have called themselves Arminians, and those who have called themselves Calvinists. The Lord Jesus Christ has spoke to me through the writings of both, despite their adherence to doctrines of men. Just so that is clear.

Matthew 24 is pretty famous and well known, the Olivet discourse:
Matthew 24 ESV
1 Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, "You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down." 3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"


The rest of the chapter and the following chapter (25) are Jesus's response to this question about the end of the age, and what Jesus want's to tell his disciples about it. So, talking about the end of the age, Jesus says, "Then the kingdom of heaven will be like...." and goes on to tell about the parable of wise and foolish virgins. The parable is about what it will be like at the end of the age, when Jesus returns in his Glory.


Then, right after that parable, Jesus starts in on another parable saying, "For it (the kingdom of heaven) will be like..." He is talking about the Kingdom of Heaven and what it will be like at the end of the age, when Jesus returns from his "long journey."


Finally, right after that parable, Jesus tells one final parable, and starts with this, "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne..."


It seems to me that the theme of this whole thing is the end of the age and Jesus's second coming. All of these parables are about what it will be like at the end of the age when the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord (Rev. 11:15), at the time Jesus begins to reign:
Revelation 11 ESV
17 saying, "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, who is and who was, for you have taken your great power and begun to reign. 18 The nations raged, but your wrath came, and the time for the dead to be judged, and for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints, and those who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."


Perhaps these three parables in Matthew 25 are all different ways of looking at the same thing. Is that too much of a stretch? I don't think it is. It seems that they are all about what the judgement will be like when Jesus returns in his Glory. In all three parables we can see who is going to be accepted, and who is going to be rejected. So, it would seem important for us to determine why one group in each parable get's rejected, and why the other group get's accepted. These are quite important things I think.


I look forward to going into more detail on this,


Grace to you,


Travis

We don't have to call ourselves anything other than just a Christian. I agree with your assessment of the teachings of Christ, about the end of the age and His return. But what age is ending? It is the age where the nations rule themselves and do as they please. A new age is beginning where Christ will rule over the whole earth. This new age will start at the end of the tribulation period when Christ will return. It will last for 1000 years.

Most in Christianity do not believe in anything more than heaven or hell. They think that when Jesus comes back it will be heaven or hell for eternity. They think that after they die, they will float to heaven and stay there for eternity. However the bible does not teach this. But at the end of the age, God will fulfill His promise to the Jews, to restore the nation of Israel with the Messiah. Gentile Christians should realize that this is God's goal for the end of the age, and they are privileged to have the opportunity to participate in that, by ruling and reigning with Christ.

As stated in Rev 20:4-6, there is a period of time, 1000 years (although it may be longer or shorter, 1000 is perhaps not literal), when Jesus will reign on the Earth, before the New Heavens and New Earth comes. This period of time was well known to the Jews, and so most of Jesus's parables about the kingdom to the Jews, in the Gospels, are in fact talking about this period of time. Christ is not really talking about how to get into Heaven, which is the common interpretation by most in Christianity. In the Old Testament God promised the Jews that the Messiah would come to inherit the throne of David and restore the nation of Israel. This is found in Gen 49:10, Isaiah 9:6-7, Dan 2:35, 7:14, Zech 3:8, 9:9-10 and many other places. Even the disciples asked Him this question in Acts 1:6. They never asked him "Lord, at this time can we go to heaven?" If the disciples were in modern day Christianity they probably would have asked this.

During the 1000 year period, the Jews will be teaching the nations to know God (Zech. 8:20-23; 14:16-17; Isa. 2:2-3; Jer. 3:17). In the bible this is known as the "Kingdom of the Messiah". At the same time, the Christians (those worthy to experience the first resurrection), will be reigning . This is known as the "Kingdom of the Heavens" or the "Kingdom of the Father" (Matthew 13:43). This is shown in Rev. 2:26-27; 20:4-6; 2 Tim. 2:12; Luke 19:17- 19. The Kingdom of the heavens is heavenly but it is not necessarily Heaven (the place where God's home is). Kingdom simply means rule and reign, so the rule and reign heaven on the Earth, is no more Heaven, than the rule and reign of the USA in Afghanistan is the USA.

The interesting thing is that Rev 20:4-6 also says that only some of the Christians will be resurrected, they shall be priests of God and reign with Him a thousand years. This is called the first resurrection. The rest of the dead (i.e. everyone unworthy to be resurrected at this time), will not be resurrected until later. In Phil 3:11, Paul sought to attain to the resurrection from the dead. At first glance this may seem like a doctrine of works, Paul is wanting to attain his own resurrection. However, he is not trying to attain the general resurrection which all believers will have. He is wanting to attain to the resurrection mentioned in Rev 20:4-6, and reign with Christ in His kingdom for 1000 years. In order to participate in the millennial kingdom, we have to be worthy for it. Time and time again Christ says "to him who overcomes... I will do this" (Rev 3:21). If we do not live a worthy life on the earth, we will miss out on the reward, which is to rule and reign with Christ.

When Christ came back after the tribulation period, and ruled and reigned for 1000 years, it was not the end of evil or satan. As stated in Rev 2:7-8, after the 1000 year period, all hell breaks loose again, as some of the nations (mostly Russia etc.. we know it's Russia because the Bible specifies the actual place names), rebel against Christ's rule, Satan is released from prison, and the final battle takes place (this is not Armageddon, which is the final battle before Christ's return, this is the final battle ever) in which Christ has final victory.

After this, the heavens and earth will be destroyed by fire (which is a kind of cleansing the earth of all the evil things... the first cleansing was by water, Noah's flood, this second cleansing is by fire), and the new heavens and earth will come, and the New Jerusalem will descend from heaven.

 

[Travis]

I agree with BAC, in that I believe the servants are born again believers. Unbelievers don't call Jesus master, neither does Jesus give them talents (spiritual gifts and abilities to be used in God's service).

We don't have to call ourselves anything other than just a Christian. I agree with your assessment of the teachings of Christ, about the end of the age and His return. But what age is ending? It is the age where the nations rule themselves and do as they please. A new age is beginning where Christ will rule over the whole earth. This new age will start at the end of the tribulation period when Christ will return. It will last for 1000 years.

Hey James,

Quick question, and then some comments:

Matthew 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.
Matthew 26:49 And forthwith he (Judas) came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.​

and

Matthew 10
1 And when he had called unto [him] his twelve disciples, he gave them power [against] unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. ... 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.​

Judas was both given spiritual authority and gifting (not to mention he was put in charge of the money), but he also acknowledged Jesus as Master/Rabbi right after Jesus said to call no one Master, because one is your Master (Christ/Messiah). He was acknowledging that Jesus was/is the Christ. You could say he was lying, or whatever, but we can't deny that with his words he acknowledged that Jesus was Master and therefore the Christ.

So, was Judas a born again believer? I think it might be good for us to define the biblical usage of the word believe/believer.



But, what I really want to get into, back to the parable of the talents:

I am glad that you agree with me that this parable is about the end of the age and Christ's judgement when he returns. But why does Jesus call the man wicked, worthless (without any amount of value), and slothful? Was Jesus concerned about the money? Let's look at this another way, and you tell me how you think Jesus would react in this situation:

“For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ He also who had received the one talent came forward, throwing himself down at his master's feet saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me one talent, and I went and spent it all... I gambled it away trying to earn more money, and now I do not even have one denarii remaining... Master, I am useless, please have mercy on me, for I am wretched and not worthy of having you as my master."
​

The other servant at least gave the Master his talent back, but this one completely lost the whole thing. How do you think the Master will respond to him.?

One other thing:

For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. ​

What is it that one "has," and the other "has not?" We know it is not the talent, for even when he was in possessions of the talent, the wicked servant was still the one who, "has not." What is it that one "has," and the other "has not?"

Grace to you,

Travis

 

[james1523]

Hey James,

Quick question, and then some comments:

Matthew 23:10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, [even] Christ.
Matthew 26:49 And forthwith he (Judas) came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.​

and

Matthew 10
1 And when he had called unto [him] his twelve disciples, he gave them power [against] unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. ... 7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. 8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.​

Judas was both given spiritual authority and gifting (not to mention he was put in charge of the money), but he also acknowledged Jesus as Master/Rabbi right after Jesus said to call no one Master, because one is your Master (Christ/Messiah). He was acknowledging that Jesus was/is the Christ. You could say he was lying, or whatever, but we can't deny that with his words he acknowledged that Jesus was Master and therefore the Christ.

So, was Judas a born again believer? I think it might be good for us to define the biblical usage of the word believe/believer.



But, what I really want to get into, back to the parable of the talents:

I am glad that you agree with me that this parable is about the end of the age and Christ's judgement when he returns. But why does Jesus call the man wicked, worthless (without any amount of value), and slothful? Was Jesus concerned about the money? Let's look at this another way, and you tell me how you think Jesus would react in this situation:

“For it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted to them his property. To one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ He also who had received the one talent came forward, throwing himself down at his master's feet saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me one talent, and I went and spent it all... I gambled it away trying to earn more money, and now I do not even have one denarii remaining... Master, I am useless, please have mercy on me, for I am wretched and not worthy of having you as my master."
​

The other servant at least gave the Master his talent back, but this one completely lost the whole thing. How do you think the Master will respond to him.?

One other thing:

For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. ​

What is it that one "has," and the other "has not?" We know it is not the talent, for even when he was in possessions of the talent, the wicked servant was still the one who, "has not." What is it that one "has," and the other "has not?"

Grace to you,

Travis

Hello Travis. Judas was not born again, in fact no one was at that time. But he was as much a disciple and believer as any of the other 12, up until the time he betrayed Christ. Judas was an example of a wicked believer, he was a greedy thief, and there was an open door for Satan to enter him to betray Christ (Judas betrayed Christ for 30 pieces of silver, if I remember right).
Slaves or servants of Christ are believers (1 Cor 7:22-23, 2 Pet 1:1, James 1:1, Rom 1:1). An idea that servants of Christ are unbelievers is a ridiculous notion.
Rom 12:11 says for believers not to be slothful. It's possible for believers to be wicked and slothful. We don't even need the bible to know that. How many of us in our own experience can say that we have never been wicked or lazy since believing in Christ? Would we call ourselves unbelievers or say we were never truly saved to begin with?

"But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away." means, the one who has no increase of his talents (has not, nothing to show), will have the talent he has (or thinks he has, but never uses) been given taken away from him. Such was the case of the slothful servant. Those who gain a profit in the current age, will be given more in the kingdom age (the millennial reign of Christ on the earth), which is to rule and reign with Christ. Those who do not profit in this age, will have the gift taken away from him, and be thrown into outer darkness as well. If we are faithful in the few things in this age of the church, then Christ will give us greater responsibilities in the kingdom age (Matt 25:21). One gets joy (Matt 25:21), the other gets weeping and gnashing of teeth (signifying distress, torment) (Matt 25:30). Probably the far majority of believers, who merely attend church and yet do not do anything in God's service, will be going to outer darkness for 1000 years.

The Bible says that many are called to participate in the kingdom age, but few will be chosen (Matt 22:14). So many Christians will be going to outer darkness and few, by comparison, will get to rule and reign with Christ. Even the apostle Paul, did not claim to have already obtained it (Phil 3:11-12). It does not mean that many are called for salvation, and only few are chosen for salvation - God desires all to be saved. I can prove that "the called" are not unbelievers called to salvation, as many suppose, but believers called to participate in the kingdom (as is the immediate context of the previous passages, in Matt 22:13 and earlier). The wedding feast, is another symbolical passage regarding the enjoyment of the kingdom age. The Bible refers to saved believers as "called" a number of times (Rom 1:6, Jude 1:1, 2 Tim 1:9, Rom 8:28-30).

Probably we can look at the parable of the wedding banquet in Matt 22:1 in further detail. Again, the wedding banquet is about the kingdom age on Earth, not heaven. This explains why a person is invited to the feast, yet is thrown out again for not having a wedding garment. This is a believer who doesn't have the appropriate attire of righteousness they are probably a wicked believer. They share the same fate as the wicked and slothful servant of outer darkness (not necessarily hell fire, which is for unbelievers). He is not an unbeliever, the unbelievers aren't invited to the wedding feast at all, because they refused to come and even mistreated the servants (a reference mainly to the Jews, who persecuted the prophets).

 

[B-A-C]

While we are alive here on the earth. Sometimes God punishes us. (if we need it).

Lev 26:18; 1 Sam 15:2; Isa 13:11; Jer 9:25; Jer 21:14; Hos 8:13; Zep 1:12; Heb 12:6; Heb 12:10; etc...

But once we die. That's it. Game over. No second chances. No temporary punishment.

Heb 9:27; And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

A few of the verses I listed earlier talk about being thrown into the outer darkness. (I don't think this is a temporary thing, but let's just say it is for a minute)
Matt 3:10; Matt 7:19; Matt 9:22;
The punishment for these is the same as unbelievers. The punishment is forever. Not a few seconds, not a day, not 1000 years Forever.

Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev 21:8; "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Yes the verse above includes unbelievers. But it also includes people who may be believers yet are cowardly or murderers, or immoral or liars.
Now of course some people may have done some of these things in their past. So are they lost forever? No, even David was immoral and a murderer.
These are people living that life style who are unrepentant.

Matt 7:12; "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Matt 7:13; "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14; "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Notice in verse 13 it says destruction, it doesn't say temporary punishment. It is eternal punishment.

After Christ's 1000 year reign and the final battle with Satan.. nothing changes. The dead do not get a reprieve or a second chance.
Even after Satan is cast into the lake of fire there will still be immoral people on the earth.

Rev 22:14; Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15; Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

 

[james1523]

While we are alive here on the earth. Sometimes God punishes us. (if we need it).

Lev 26:18; 1 Sam 15:2; Isa 13:11; Jer 9:25; Jer 21:14; Hos 8:13; Zep 1:12; Heb 12:6; Heb 12:10; etc...

But once we die. That's it. Game over. No second chances. No temporary punishment.

Heb 9:27; And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

I will not try to convince you of something that God has not convinced you yourself. I will only explain why I believe in temporary punishment, so that we can reach a constructive mutual understanding. The very fact that the Bible says that God chastises his children (Heb 12:10), is some proof of temporary punishment. God lives outside of space and time, so whether it occurs in this life or the next, is largely irrelevant. He will punish some in this life, and some in the next. Jesus does not hold a position on throne as Lord and King, or a rod or sword in his hand, for no reason. A kingdom without laws and punishments is an anarchy. In the next age, it will still be a kingdom with laws and punishments. I believe a doctrine of temporal punishment is necessary in order to reconcile Calvinistic and Arminian theology, and probably the absence of such a doctrine in protestant thought has contributed to the ongoing debates between the two sides. The Catholic church for example, simply does not have these sorts of arguments and divisions, because they accept a doctrine of temporal punishment. The Catholic notion of temporal punishment, purgatory, is decidedly wrong, however this does not mean that the doctrine of temporal punishment itself is wrong, as it is found in ancient church traditions and is probably the source and foundation of what the erroneous Catholic purgatory doctrine later became. An interesting fact here, is that Martin Luther, after the reformation, still believed in temporal punishment, but said that it cannot clearly be proved or denied from Scripture, so he cannot convince others to believe in it. Luther therefore, after dealing with all the core issues in the doctrine of purgatory (prayers for the dead, indulgences, the power of the Pope over man's soul and ability to influence its destination) must have had good sense, to realize that despite a believer being saved by faith alone, their imperfections still had to be dealt with, somehow.

At the core of temporary punishment, is not to give a person a "second chance" as supposed, but to cleanse and separate a person unto God's holiness.
The problem with protestant theology, particularly the one regarding imputed righteousness, is that it says that God declares someone to be righteous, and so in fact they must be. But just because God declares someone to be righteous doesn't mean that they are in reality. God declaring something to be so when in fact it is not so, really makes God out to be a liar, or even blind or stupid. We find that God does not declare how things are, but how things will be. I believe that when God declares a person righteous, it is not that they are righteous in that moment (they are only in essence, considered to be), but that they will be righteous (in practicality) in future. For example, when any of us became a Christian, we still thought, said and did unrighteous things, we still need confession and forgiveness, and a Savior. This proves that despite God's declaration of our righteousness, in practice we are not. The prophetic declaration must match the reality, and the way to do this is the way of temporal punishment.

The temporal punishment is not a second chance but a chastisement and cleansing of the believer so that they may share in God's holiness. The goal of temporal punishment is really to deal with our imperfect, yet eternal soul. Ideally, by the end of our life, if we have cooperated with God in the sanctification process, our soul will be renewed and transformed, and we will have the mind of Christ. However for the majority of believers, their mind is filled with self and the world, and God is not going to give a person with a dirty mind, a squeaky clean new glorified body. It will be like a car going through a car wash so that it can come out nice and clean on the other side. An example is a child who has gotten all dirty and muddy which won't come off their skin. The father or mother may use a tough scrubbing brush to get it off which may cause pain to the child, but at the end the child is nice and clean. This is what Heb 12:10 seems to indicate, in that the goal of punishment for God's children is restoration and separation for holiness, not destruction. The immediate context of Heb 9:27 is really to say that Christ only had to die once for our sins (verse 28), not to say that there is no temporary punishment afterwards.
That said, the problem with this doctrine is that there is no eternal security for the believer based on grace through faith, not of works.

God's love, is not a motivating force for obedience. No amount of love, has convinced a drug dealer or rapist to turn themselves into police. The motivating force for obedience is fear. There is no fear in eternal security doctrine without consequence.

A believer who believes in heaven or hell, and eternal in-security, has something great to fear - that they will go to hell if they don't please God enough with their good works. Their works for God will therefore be for self-preservation rather than obedience to their Father.
A believer who believes in heaven or hell, and eternal security, has nothing to fear - they will go to heaven no matter how they live or what they do, they will live a life of carelessness.
A believer who believes in heaven or hell, eternal security and temporal punishment - has something to fear, in that God is a chastising Father, but nothing great to fear, in that they will not lose their salvation - God is always their Father. In human terms: when we were children, we would never fear that we would be thrown out of the family home and disowned for being naughty, but we did fear our father's belt or mother's kitchen spoon.

A few of the verses I listed earlier talk about being thrown into the outer darkness. (I don't think this is a temporary thing, but let's just say it is for a minute)
Matt 3:10; Matt 7:19; Matt 9:22;
The punishment for these is the same as unbelievers. The punishment is forever. Not a few seconds, not a day, not 1000 years Forever.

Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev 21:8; "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Yes the verse above includes unbelievers. But it also includes people who may be believers yet are cowardly or murderers, or immoral or liars.
Now of course some people may have done some of these things in their past. So are they lost forever? No, even David was immoral and a murderer.
These are people living that life style who are unrepentant.

That may be the case for believers who live in sin, but this does not consider believers who are lazy, or fail to use their talents. Yet the bible says that these go into outer darkness as well. So does the believer who lives a holy life yet does nothing for Christ in using their talents, go to hellfire for eternity, with the person who lives in unrepentant sin? I don't think so. In any case, to claim such a doctrine is really to believe in a doctrine of works (that our salvation, depends upon our performance in serving Christ).

There is a difference between outer darkness and hellfire for a very simple reason - Jesus did not use slang or catch-phrases or work-trickery, so when Jesus said outer darkness he meant outer darkness, not a furnace, and when Jesus said a lake of fire he meant an actual lake of fire, not a dark place. And when the people who wrote the Bible put pen to paper, I believe they translated it accurately and purposefully, so that outer darkness means just that and hell fire means just that. There's a big difference between darkness and fire. Where there is fire, there is light. The lake of fire will be a very bright place, not a dark place.

Matt 7:12; "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Matt 7:13; "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14; "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Notice in verse 13 it says destruction, it doesn't say temporary punishment. It is eternal punishment.

It does say destruction but it doesn't say what is destroyed. Destruction here may not refer to the person themselves but to their works (1 Cor 3:15). A doctrine which says that few shall be saved, conflicts with God's desire to save the whole world, and that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.

After Christ's 1000 year reign and the final battle with Satan.. nothing changes. The dead do not get a reprieve or a second chance.
Even after Satan is cast into the lake of fire there will still be immoral people on the earth.

Rev 22:14; Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15; Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

There will be no immoral people on the earth when Satan is cast into the lake of fire, because a) for unbelievers, they will be thrown into the lake of fire with Satan, and b) for believers, their immorality has already been dealt with by the temporal punishment (this is mainly to deal with the soul, which does not die), and they will have been regenerated and transformed with glorified bodies so that they do not have any more sin in the flesh. In Rev 22:15, the "outside" is those in the lake of fire.

 

[Travis]

Matt 7:12; "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
Matt 7:13; "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
Matt 7:14; "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Notice in verse 13 it says destruction, it doesn't say temporary punishment. It is eternal punishment.

After Christ's 1000 year reign and the final battle with Satan.. nothing changes. The dead do not get a reprieve or a second chance.

Hey B A C,

You make a good point.

I think all those who enter in through the wide gate and the broad way will be eternally damned. There is only one way to salvation, and that is through Jesus Christ (who is the Gate, and the Way). There are two gates, but the question is, where are they going? Are they not going to the kingdom of God? Here is another verse that talks about the kingdom of God:

Luke 16:16 NIV
"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing their way into it.​

Every one who is living is forcing, or being forced one may say, their way into the kingdom of Heaven. We are all heading there whether we like it or not. No one get's to avoid the judgement in Jesus's soon coming Kingdom, which is already here in part. The question is, are you going to enter into the kingdom through the wide gate or the narrow gate? Those who enter in through the wide gate are only going to be there long enough to receive their judgement, then they are cast into the lake of fire. Everyone will be resurrected and stand before the King, in his kingdom, while he is reigning as King. But only those who are wise, faithful, and righteous will remain with him eternally. Everyone else will be cast out.

So, like so many other things in the bible, this begs the question, what must we do to enter into the narrow gate?

Rev 21:8; "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Yes the verse above includes unbelievers.

[ . . . ]

Now of course some people may have done some of these things in their past. So are they lost forever? No, even David was immoral and a murderer.
These are people living that life style who are unrepentant.

Amen,

1st John 1:9 tells us:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness."
​

So then we see what is required of us to be cleansed from All Unrighteousness: confess our sins. Show me one person who was rejected by Jesus who confessed all their sin and begged him to have mercy on them because they had no ability to save themselves.

Grace to you,

Travis