Third person of the Trinity

[B-A-C]

I am speaking here of course of the Holy Spirit.

It seems that some don't believe the Holy Spirit to be a unique personality, but view the Holy Spirit more as an "it" rather than a "Him".
Some don't believe the Holy Spirit to be a self conscious awareness, but rather "just the force of the father".

The Holy Spirit can speak.
Acts 21:11; 1 Tim 4:1; Heb 3:7; Rev 2:11; Rev 2:17; Rev 2:29; Rev 3:6; Rev 3:13; Rev 3:22; etc...

The Holy Spirit can testify.
Acts 20:23; Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; 1 Jn 5:6; etc...

The Holy Spirit can teach.
Luke 12:12; John 14:26; etc...

The Holy Spirit can convict.
John 16:8;

The Holy Spirit intercedes for us. If the Holy Spirit was simply the Father, or just "the Father's will". He wouldn't qualify as an intercessor or "go between".
He is an intercessor like Jesus is also an intercessor.
Rom 8:26; Rom 8:27; etc...

The Holy Spirit guides us.
John 16:13;

The Holy Spirit reveals God's Word to us at a deeper level than the natural.
John 16:13; "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own behalf, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
This verse also shows that the Spirit isn't simply the father's will, but has the ability to hear on Hid own, and also doesn't speak on His own behalf (which
he wouldn't have His own initiative if He was simply someone elses "force or will")

The Holy Spirit can be tested. (In some cases Spirit's should be tested)
Acts 5:9; 1 Jn 4:1;

The Holy Spirit can be lied to. Not that He doesn't know it is a lie, on the contrary He does know, but that doesn't make it any less a lie.
Acts 5:3;

The Holy Spirit can be grieved.
Eph 4:30;

The Holy Spirit can be resisted.
Acts 7:51;

The Holy Spirit is eternal.
Heb 9:14;

It's possible to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, however this is known as the unforgivable sin.
Mark 3:29; Luke 12:10;

It's interesting how this verse breaks down the trinity with attributes.
2 Cor 13:14; The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

Gal 6:8; For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
This is only one of 3 things required to receive eternal life. ( Matt 19:17; John 3:16; )

 

[B-A-C]

The Holy Spirit can give Spiritual gifts.

1 Cor 12:1; Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware.
1 Cor 12:4; Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Cor 12:7; But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.
1 Cor 12:8; For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
1 Cor 12:9; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit,
1 Cor 12:10; and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.
1 Cor 12:11; But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

The Holy Spirit can cause us to produce "fruits of the Spirit"

Gal 5:22; But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23; gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:24; Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

The Holy Spirit can (and should be) asked for.
Luke 11:13; "If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?"

 

[rstrats]

Not that it proves anything, of course, but It might be interesting to note that not once does Paul mention anyone other than the father and the son in any of his epistles' salutations.

 

[Chad]

Not that it proves anything, of course, but It might be interesting to note that not once does Paul mention anyone other than the father and the son in any of his epistles' salutations.

The Bible is still abundantly clear that GOD is one, made of 3 persons - Father, Son, Holy Spirit. Paul is simply a servant of the Lord who wrote what the Spirit (how ironic) lead him to write down. The Holy Spirit is no less important and crucial to our faith and understanding of GOD Himself. As believers, we are filled with the Holy Spirit of GOD. It's sad that some deny His existence when Scripture says plenty about Him.

As for Paul mentioning the Holy Spirit, there's ample mentioned but below are just 3 for now.

1 Thessalonians 1:1-5
Paul, Silas and Timothy,
To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
Grace and peace to you.
We always thank God for all of you and continually mention you in our prayers. We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.
For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not simply with words but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake.

Romans 1:1-4
Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his earthly life was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was appointed the Son of God in power by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

For those who want to learn more about the Holy Spirt, here are related threads:

http://www.talkjesus.com/scriptural-answers/13466-holy-spirit.html
http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-study/8438-holy-spirit.html
http://www.talkjesus.com/scriptural-answers/11922-trinity.html

 

[james1523]

Not that it proves anything, of course, but It might be interesting to note that not once does Paul mention anyone other than the father and the son in any of his epistles' salutations.

I think Paul does not need to send greetings from the Holy Spirit to his hearers, the church, because they already have the Spirit with them. However the Trinity blessing is sometimes found at the end of his epistle eg:
2 Cor 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

2 Cor 13:14; The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

Bless you ....><>

 

[Byfaith]

I am speaking here of course of the Holy Spirit.

It seems that some don't believe the Holy Spirit to be a unique personality, but view the Holy Spirit more as an "it" rather than a "Him".
Some don't believe the Holy Spirit to be a self conscious awareness, but rather "just the force of the father".

The Holy Spirit can speak.
Acts 21:11; 1 Tim 4:1; Heb 3:7; Rev 2:11; Rev 2:17; Rev 2:29; Rev 3:6; Rev 3:13; Rev 3:22; etc...

The Holy Spirit can testify.
Acts 20:23; Rom 8:16; Heb 10:15; 1 Jn 5:6; etc...

The Holy Spirit can teach.
Luke 12:12; John 14:26; etc...

The Holy Spirit can convict.
John 16:8;

The Holy Spirit intercedes for us. If the Holy Spirit was simply the Father, or just "the Father's will". He wouldn't qualify as an intercessor or "go between".
He is an intercessor like Jesus is also an intercessor.
Rom 8:26; Rom 8:27; etc...

The Holy Spirit guides us.
John 16:13;

The Holy Spirit reveals God's Word to us at a deeper level than the natural.
John 16:13; "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own behalf, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
This verse also shows that the Spirit isn't simply the father's will, but has the ability to hear on Hid own, and also doesn't speak on His own behalf (which
he wouldn't have His own initiative if He was simply someone elses "force or will")

The Holy Spirit can be tested. (In some cases Spirit's should be tested)
Acts 5:9; 1 Jn 4:1;

The Holy Spirit can be lied to. Not that He doesn't know it is a lie, on the contrary He does know, but that doesn't make it any less a lie.
Acts 5:3;

The Holy Spirit can be grieved.
Eph 4:30;

The Holy Spirit can be resisted.
Acts 7:51;

The Holy Spirit is eternal.
Heb 9:14;

It's possible to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, however this is known as the unforgivable sin.
Mark 3:29; Luke 12:10;

It's interesting how this verse breaks down the trinity with attributes.
2 Cor 13:14; The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

Gal 6:8; For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
This is only one of 3 things required to receive eternal life. ( Matt 19:17; John 3:16; )

Right about all that, and great scriptures to define the Holy Spirit. Why does the Holy Spirit have to be a 3rd person in a Catholic doctrine though? Nothing against Catholic's, I just don't agree with all their creeds and doctrines we in the west have accepted. Even in my church I hear at times.... "Jesus, the 2nd person in the Godhead" The King of Kings, the Lord of Lord's who will judge and every knee shall bow is not a 2nd person to anything. I know it's just an expression folks pick up from others, but still irritates me if I let it.

 

[B-A-C]

Right about all that, and great scriptures to define the Holy Spirit. Why does the Holy Spirit have to be a 3rd person in a Catholic doctrine though? Nothing against Catholic's, I just don't agree with all their creeds and doctrines we in the west have accepted. Even in my church I hear at times.... "Jesus, the 2nd person in the Godhead" The King of Kings, the Lord of Lord's who will judge and every knee shall bow is not a 2nd person to anything. I know it's just an expression folks pick up from others, but still irritates me if I let it.

As anyone who has read my threads here on TJ knows, I am not Roman Catholic either.
I don't think the fact that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are call the "2nd" or "3rd" means that they are less.
It simply means they are more than one.

Jesus has all authority now and in the age to come. But eventually He gives the authority back to the father. ( 1 Cor 15:24; )
Keep in mind, Jesus isn't the destination, the Father is. Jesus is the way to the Father. John 14:6;

 

[Byfaith]

As anyone who has read my threads here on TJ knows, I am not Roman Catholic either.
I don't think the fact that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are call the "2nd" or "3rd" means that they are less.
It simply means they are more than one.

Jesus has all authority now and in the age to come. But eventually He gives the authority back to the father. ( 1 Cor 15:24; )
Keep in mind, Jesus isn't the destination, the Father is. Jesus is the way to the Father. John 14:6;

Thank you Brother, yes, Jesus gives all back once death has been defeated. Not many catch that verse in 1 Cor.

We all have doctrines that "prick" us and the Athanasian Creed just irritates me. Nobody even really knows who wrote it and Athanasian claimed that He would never speak against the Nicene council ruling and original creed nor did He ever mention the athanasian creed in any of his letters though authorship was sort of handed to him. The doctrine did not fully surface until contested in the 1600's though and we are not sure exactly where it came from but that Rome approved it and published it.

The doctrine really has nothing to do with 3 in 1, but was a big debate over Monotheism in the 1600's. Many claimed that the original trinity doctrine was correct, there was a Father and Son both God of the same substance but not 1 God. So they made a new doctrine to keep all 3 separate as the Father and Son are mentioned in 52 scriptures together but magically become 1 as a mystery of Christian faith to keep the monotheism argument. The real and original trinity doctrine that started it all is actually correct except the part about having to be Roman Catholic at the end.

Thank you for the response. Blessing to you.

 

[WaterRock]

. Why does the Holy Spirit have to be a 3rd person in a Catholic doctrine though? Nothing against Catholic's, I just don't agree with all their creeds and doctrines we in the west have accepted.

The 'Trinity' is a Catholic doctrine which the Catholic counsel produced, promulgated and preach. The Church dogma is founded upon the following:

237 The Trinity is a mystery of faith in the strict sense, one of the "mysteries that are hidden in God, which can never be known unless they are revealed by God".58

The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. Deut 29:29

So that begs the question, if a mystery hidden in God, then how can it be claimed to have revealed to the Church in order to create the doctrine unless it was revealed, and if revealed then it is no more a mystery. Therefore, if a still a mystery then how can it be said that it had been revealed.

253 Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".83 The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."84 In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."85

254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."86 "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."87 They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."88 The divine Unity is Triune.

255 The divine persons are relative to one another. Because it does not divide the divine unity, the real distinction of the persons from one another resides solely in the relationships which relate them to one another: "In the relational names of the persons the Father is related to the Son, the Son to the Father, and the Holy Spirit to both. While they are called three persons in view of their relations, we believe in one nature or substance."89 Indeed "everything (in them) is one where there is no opposition of relationship."90 "Because of that unity the Father is wholly in the Son and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Son is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is wholly in the Father and wholly in the Son."91
256 St. Gregory of Nazianzus, also called "the Theologian", entrusts this summary of Trinitarian faith to the catechumens of Constantinople:
Above all guard for me this great deposit of faith for which I live and fight, which I want to take with me as a companion, and which makes me bear all evils and despise all pleasures: I mean the profession of faith in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. I entrust it to you today. By it I am soon going to plunge you into water and raise you up from it. I give it to you as the companion and patron of your whole life. I give you but one divinity and power, existing one in three, and containing the three in a distinct way. Divinity without disparity of substance or nature, without superior degree that raises up or inferior degree that casts down. . . the infinite co-naturality of three infinites. Each person considered in himself is entirely God. . . the three considered together. . . I have not even begun to think of unity when the Trinity bathes me in its splendor. I have not even begun to think of the Trinity when unity grasps me. . .92


The verse used to support the Trinity is Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
However, I have found nothing in the dogma which acknowledges or references 1 John 5:7;
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
If the Holy Ghost was the father of the child born to Mary as represented in scripture such as Matthew:18, "...she was found with child of the Holy Ghost." Then Holy Ghost being the Spirit and the Word already one before, like a Man and his wife shall be one flesh. Can the child of the one flesh be the procreation of the one, I think not. Yet, neither is the procreation created from nothing- being separate from God, but where born of the Son, who being the image of the invisible God, which would theoretically be invisible too like the Holy Ghost, the Son of God, who is the heavenly Father, or at least in my opinion.

Col 1:15-17
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

 

[Byfaith]

So that begs the question, if a mystery hidden in God, then how can it be claimed to have revealed to the Church in order to create the doctrine unless it was revealed, and if revealed then it is no more a mystery. Therefore, if a still a mystery then how can it be said that it had been revealed.

Brother, you will have to write and ask Rome these questions. The Southern Baptist say it's to deep for the finite mind of man to understand. If they claim it's deep and man can't understand, then where the heck they come up with their own version of it?

Religion does not make sense. You can't even prove the Modern Trinity Doctrine in scripture without sounding like a Modalist or worse, Oneness. That is why I guess Rome never gave one scripture to prove their Mystery.

You also have to understand most believers are not really Trinitarian but mix Oneness with their understanding. The Pentecostal church is bad at this and say things like Jesus is the Word of God, a Oneness comment.So if your debating Trinity with people, your most likely debating a mix of Oneness and Trinity.

The Original Trinity Doctrine is actually correct though scripturally. The Doctrine was made to protect the deity of Jesus, not protect monotheism. It's the Doctrine that started the whole thing and Rome switched stances to the more Modern Doctrine.

Be blessed.

 

[WaterRock]

Brother, you will have to write and ask Rome these questions.

What question? While it begs the question, a rhetorical question itself does not solicit a answer just as the one you posed regarding the Southern Baptist, to which I would say your statement make a good point.

Religion does not make sense

Try it within the yoke of the precepts of the LORD and it not only makes sense but is a blessing.

 

[Byfaith]

Try it within the yoke of the precepts of the LORD and it not only makes sense but is a blessing.

An Apostolic Pastor I was working with tried to explain His Oneness Doctrine with a picture of an egg. Jesus is the Yoke, the Holy Spirit is the white and The father is the shell. The whole egg is God. I said run that by me again, Jesus is a Yoke? what?

Be blessed.

 

[RJ]

An Apostolic Pastor I was working with tried to explain His Oneness Doctrine with a picture of an egg. Jesus is the Yoke, the Holy Spirit is the white and The father is the shell. The whole egg is God. I said run that by me again, Jesus is a Yoke? what?

The analogy is the Trinity:

• Egg Yoke
• Egg-white
• Egg shell
  
• Its an egg but comprised of three separate parts, different functions, but all egg
• Like God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, comprise of three separate parts , different functions, but all God.

 

[Byfaith]

The analogy is the Trinity:

• Egg Yoke
• Egg-white
• Egg shell
  
• Its an egg but comprised of three separate parts, different functions, but all egg
• Like God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, comprise of three separate parts , different functions, but all God.

I never Heard Trinity explained this way, just Oneness. I am most definitely against Oneness and Modalism. Modern Trinity states (Several times)

Taken from the Modern Athanasian Creed:

But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.

The issue I have with the Modern Doctrine is that God said (The Lord God Of Israel, the Savior, the creator) Is that He is the only One, none before him, none after him. He sent his son, kept his promise, crucified his own son, and there is nothing like him before and nothing coming that is like the Father God.

Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
(Isa 43:10-11)

There is absolutely nothing like the Father, nothing co-equal with him, nothing that is Him. There is only ONE LORD GOD, there are no more Lord God's running around. There are not 3, that become 1. The Original Trinity doctrine stated this.

This does not make Jesus not God, not one in His Father, but it don't make him co-equal and does not make him One God with His father as He is fully God on his own, just not the Father.

Jude said it best:

For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
(Jud 1:4)

There is only ONE Lord God, One Lord Jesus Christ. That is two, two thrones, Father and Son.

We are called gods by Jesus, Paul said there be gods a many in Heaven, we are created in the image of God, born of the same Word Jesus was. We may be one in them, but that does not make us approach the status of the only Lord God of Israel, the Creator and Father.

that is the issue I have with the Modern Doctrine.

Blessings.

 

[RJ]

The issue I have with the Modern Doctrine is that God said (The Lord God Of Israel, the Savior, the creator) Is that He is the only One, none before him, none after him. He sent his son, kept his promise, crucified his own son, and there is nothing like him before and nothing coming that is like the Father God.

Yes, and our God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent...denying the Trinity is denying that God is not capable, he is three persons in one but he is still sovereign!

 

[Byfaith]

Yes, and our God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent...denying the Trinity is denying that God is not capable, he is three persons in one but he is still sovereign!

I did say I hold to the Original Trinity Doctrine (Except having to be Catholic and Jesus begotten before the foundation of the World). Not the Modern version.

 

[RJ]

(Except having to be Catholic and Jesus begotten before the foundation of the World)

Ahhh!, Well I am not Catholic but God is so powerful he, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, did EVERYTHING before the foundation, even saving you!..and putting you in the Lamb's Book of Life!

 

[Byfaith]

Ahhh!, Well I am not Catholic but God is so powerful he, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, did EVERYTHING before the foundation, even saving you!..and putting you in the Lamb's Book of Life!

That's the good part. Amen.

 

[WaterRock]

An Apostolic Pastor I was working with tried to explain His Oneness Doctrine with a picture of an egg. Jesus is the Yoke, the Holy Spirit is the white and The father is the shell. The whole egg is God. I said run that by me again, Jesus is a Yoke? what?

Be blessed.

:laugh:

The analogy is the Trinity:

• Egg Yoke
• Egg-white
• Egg shell
  
• Its an egg but comprised of three separate parts, different functions, but all egg
• Like God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, comprise of three separate parts , different functions, but all God.

But do we eat all three parts of the egg? No.
Can the egg be put back together once broken? No.
Did either the chicken or the egg come first? No

And while not to say not a legitimate hypothesis, yet it doesn't seem to hold up when examined in the duality of God's singularity as referenced in John 3:12. Thus as written in 1 Thess 5:21, "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." Since we are to worship God in spirit and truth, we might be justified by faith, but justified isn't being sanctified.