salvation vs redemption vs sanctification vs ...

[B-A-C]

There seems to be a lot of discussion of what being "saved" means. Is it the same as being sanctified? Is it the same as being redeemed? Is it the same as being justified?
Is it the same as eternal life? Is it the same as being born again? Saved.... saved from what? Saved for what purpose? It seems even Christians can't agree on these things sometimes.

So let's start with being saved.

The word "saved" appears 51 times in the New Testament. (NASB)
What does it take to be saved?

Matt 10:22; "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.
Matt 10:22; Matt 24:13; Mark 13:13; all say you will be hated, but you must "endure to the end" in order to be saved. In this context, it doesn't seem to say you "are" saved, but rather
that if you endure until the end, you "will be" saved.

Verse 23 above speaks of entering the kingdom of heaven. Verses 25 then asks who can be saved? This discourse leads to the conclusion that being saved is the same thing as being
in the kingdom of heaven. But with that in mind, does being in the kingdom of heaven mean the same thing as actually going to heaven? (More about that later)
The passage above is repeated in Mark 10:23-27; As in Matthew, it seems to equate being saved with being in the kingdom of God.

Mark 10:26; They were even more astonished and said to Him, "Then who can be saved?"

Mark 16:16; "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

The verse above seems to indicate that you must both believe "and" be baptized. Even this is a source of contention, but for many, it means you must be water baptized.
This verse also appears to contrast "being saved" with "being condemned". This leads to the conclusion that a person is saved from condemnation.

In Luke 7:36-50; we see the story of the harlot who anointed Jesus' feet with perfume. In Luke 7:48; Jesus tells her that her sins have been forgiven. Then in verse 50 he goes on to say....
Luke 7:50; And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
So this leads to the conclusion that having your sins forgiven is the same thing as being saved.

In Luke 8:4-15; Jesus tells the parable of the sower. In verse 12 he says...
Luke 8:12; "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. ( Also see Matt 13:19; )
Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
This is interesting in the fact that satan can come and "take away the word from their heart". This passage is often used against the argument of "once saved always saved".
But either way, it seems having the word in your heart is also a requirement to be saved.
Mark 4:17; words this passage slightly differently.
Mark 4:17; and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.

So far we have heard that some things required to be saved are belief, baptism, enduring to the end, and keeping the word in your heart. Is anything else required to be saved?
Luke 13:23; And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them,
Luke 13:24; "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Luke 13:25; "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.'
Luke 13:26; "Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets';
Luke 13:27; and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'
Luke 13:28; "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.

I believe that most humans aren't even trying to enter the narrow gate, they are happily headed down the path to destruction. But there are "many" (verse 24) that are striving to enter the narrow gate
and even though they are striving they will not be able to. Once the gate is shut, no one else can come in. These aren't strangers, but people who ate and drank in his presence and heard his teachings (verse 26)
They even professed him to be "Lord" (verse 25). So in answer to the question posed in verse 23, Jesus replies in verse 27 depart from me, you evildoers. So it seems practicing evil is forbidden if you really
want to be saved. So that adds yet another requirement to our growing list above. Notice verse 28, it says some will be thrown out of the kingdom of God.

Matt 19:23; And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 19:24; "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Matt 19:25; When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"
Matt 19:26; And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

In John 3, we have probably the most well known, and often quoted verse in the entire Bible, John 3:16;
John 3:16; "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:17; "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
John 3:18; "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God
The verses above seem to indicate three things to me.
1. You have to believe (to have eternal life)
2. Jesus doesn't judge the world (the unsaved, however he does judge believers) and that the world "might" be saved through him. (Some Bibles say "should be").
3. Non-believers are judged by the father.
The passage above seems to equate not perishing and having eternal life as the same thing as being saved, but it's possible it could also mean being saved from the judgment of the father.

John 5:34; is similar.
John 5:34; "But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.
Again it says "might be" or "may be" or "should be" saved, not that you "are" saved.

John 10:9; "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
John 10:10; "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
The passage above is generally taken of two different ways.
1. All you have to do is enter through Jesus and you will be saved.
2. Entering through Jesus is one of the things you have to do to be saved, but not the only thing. In other words no one will be saved without going through Jesus.

Acts 2:21; 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'
Some people ask me, why do you post verses in upper-case to emphasize them? I don't, some of my Bibles already have the verses in upper case whenever the verse is a quote of the Old Testament.
I'm just copying and pasting the verse in the case it's already in. In any case, (no pun intended) the verse above seems to say all we have to do is call on Jesus to be saved. However the very next verse says this sentence
is directed to the Jews or "men of Israel" to let them know that Jesus is a requirement to be saved. That Jesus is the Lord.

Acts 2:47; praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.
Non free-will calvinists use this verse to say only God can cause people to be saved.

Acts 4:12; "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
Two verses before this, we see it's talking about Jesus here. But again, no one is saved without going through Jesus.

Acts 11:13; "And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, 'Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here;
Acts 11:14; and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'
This was directed from Peter to Cornelius (a gentile). Again it could be taken as the Holy Spirit already knew they would accept it, or it's possible that the meaning here is simply
"you will be saved if you accept these words" also your family will be saved if they also accept them.

Acts 15:11; "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
This verse is often quoted to support one of the 5 solas. However, the interesting thing is that faith in Christ is also required (so we have 3 sola's, not one)
By grace alone, by faith alone, by Christ alone.
Again, does this verse imply that all we need is grace? Or is it saying without grace no one is saved?

When Paul and Silas were "broken out of jail" the jailer asked them...
Acts 16:30; and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Acts 16:31; They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Acts 16:32; And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.
Acts 16:33; And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.
Acts 16:34; And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household
It's interesting that is seems to say all you have to do is believe, but then it goes on to say they were also baptized. (was this also a requirement?)
It also mentions that his family believed, so his faith alone doesn't seem to be able to save his entire family.

Wow, this is getting to be a rather long post and I'm not even done with being saved. Much less sanctification, redemption and eternal life. *sigh*
Hopefully I'll get more time this afternoon.

 

[B-A-C]

The following verses seem to support the idea that we are "in the process of being" saved, as opposed to the idea that we are already saved.

1 Cor 1:18; For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
2 Cor 2:15; For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing;

Matt 10:22; "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.
Matt 24:13; "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
Mark 13:13; "You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

1 Pet 4:18; AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?
Php 2:12; So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;

Now there are verses that seems to say we are already saved as well, so what's the difference? The audiences seem to be those who haven't had their faith tested yet, and those who have.

 

[B-A-C]

The kingdom of heaven means different things to different people at different times and so it is in the Bible.

Heaven is a place (spiritual, physical or both) but it's also like having a membership, kind of like being a member of the animal kingdom for example.
You may think that just because you are in the kingdom of heaven you are saved, but that isn't necessarily true, for example...

Matt 13:47; "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
Matt 13:48; and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.

The kingdom of heaven has good fish and bad fish, the bad fish are eventually thrown out.
We see this again in the parable of the wheat and tares, the field has both wheat and tares, the tares are eventually thrown out and burned up.

Mat 13:24 Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
Matt 13:27; "The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
Matt 13:28; "And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves *said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'
Matt 13:29; "But he *said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
Matt 13:30; 'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"

We see that some things are "thrown out".
Matt 5:13; "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
Luke 13:28; "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.
Luke 14:35; "It is useless either for the soil or for the manure pile; it is thrown out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

In Luke 10:18; we see that Satan was once in the kingdom of heaven, but was cast out.

Matt 7:21; "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

 

[RJ]

• I have no expertise in Greek but, the word "salvation" in the Bible comes from the Greek word "sodzo", meaning to "protect", "preserve", "heal", "deliver", "become whole", or, to "keep safe". "Sodzo", in the King James Version, is translated 93 times as "save", 12 times to become "whole", 4 times to "heal", once to "do well", and once to "preserve".
• I have seen a dictionary definition of "save" in a theological sense is, "to deliver from sin." The theological definition of "salvation" is "spiritual rescue from sin and death." To be saved, this definition seems to make sense.
• I personally think this is a basic two step process and provided by God's free gift of Grace:

1. Complete atonement for sin ( anything that separates us from God), acomplished by Jesus Christ alone and from his death on the cross..."once for all"!
2. Rescue from spiritual and eternal death by way of recieving in to you, Jesus resurrected body or being "Born Again".

 

[B-A-C]

Complete atonement for sin ( anything that separates us from God), acomplished by Jesus Christ alone and from his death on the cross..."once for all"!

In a sense, I agree, we aren't saved by anything we can do, any money we can pay, or any good deeds, it's only the grace of Jesus that saves us.
However, once we are saved, we are judged by our deeds and works by Jesus. Faith without works is dead.
Jesus' work on the cross is finished, but ours isn't. If this was true..
Both the sheep and goats would go to heaven.
All of the 10 virgins would go to heaven.
Everyone striving to enter the gate would go to heaven.
Both the wheat and tares would go to heaven.
All of the fish, (even the bad fish) in the net would go to heaven.

But in every case above, some are separated out.. why?

 

[RJ]

In a sense, I agree, we aren't saved by anything we can do, any money we can pay, or any good deeds, it's only the grace of Jesus that saves us.
However, once we are saved, we are judged by our deeds and works by Jesus. Faith without works is dead.
Jesus' work on the cross is finished, but ours isn't. If this was true..
Both the sheep and goats would go to heaven.
All of the 10 virgins would go to heaven.
Everyone striving to enter the gate would go to heaven.
Both the wheat and tares would go to heaven.
All of the fish, (even the bad fish) in the net would go to heaven.

But in every case above, some are separated out.. why?[/QUOTE

• True, faith without works is dead. If you say you have faith but no works through you from the spirit within, your faith is dead and you have not been aved in the first place. Jesus explains very simply when he said: "T am the vine and you are the branch, in me you can do many things, with out me you can do nothing".
• I don't like sin and I don't do it on purpose without regard and, I believe that there is no condemantion for me in Christ. I truly understand why possibly you don't, but I stand in the finality of the cross and the promise from God that who ever he gives to Jesus, no one can take away, not even you.
• I know the difference between the separation of the likes like sheep / goats and wheat / tares but possibly not as you do. What is it that they have in common, is they all die and go to the spirit world for all eternity. The deciding factor for those who go to heaven or those who go to hell is simply determined by who has Jesus in them and who does not.

 

[james1523]

There seems to be a lot of discussion of what being "saved" means. Is it the same as being sanctified? Is it the same as being redeemed? Is it the same as being justified?
Is it the same as eternal life? Is it the same as being born again? Saved.... saved from what? Saved for what purpose? It seems even Christians can't agree on these things sometimes.

So let's start with being saved.

The word "saved" appears 51 times in the New Testament. (NASB)
What does it take to be saved?

Matt 10:22; "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.
Matt 10:22; Matt 24:13; Mark 13:13; all say you will be hated, but you must "endure to the end" in order to be saved. In this context, it doesn't seem to say you "are" saved, but rather
that if you endure until the end, you "will be" saved.

Verse 23 above speaks of entering the kingdom of heaven. Verses 25 then asks who can be saved? This discourse leads to the conclusion that being saved is the same thing as being
in the kingdom of heaven. But with that in mind, does being in the kingdom of heaven mean the same thing as actually going to heaven? (More about that later)
The passage above is repeated in Mark 10:23-27; As in Matthew, it seems to equate being saved with being in the kingdom of God.

Mark 10:26; They were even more astonished and said to Him, "Then who can be saved?"

Mark 16:16; "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

The verse above seems to indicate that you must both believe "and" be baptized. Even this is a source of contention, but for many, it means you must be water baptized.
This verse also appears to contrast "being saved" with "being condemned". This leads to the conclusion that a person is saved from condemnation.

In Luke 7:36-50; we see the story of the harlot who anointed Jesus' feet with perfume. In Luke 7:48; Jesus tells her that her sins have been forgiven. Then in verse 50 he goes on to say....
Luke 7:50; And He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."
So this leads to the conclusion that having your sins forgiven is the same thing as being saved.

In Luke 8:4-15; Jesus tells the parable of the sower. In verse 12 he says...
Luke 8:12; "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved. ( Also see Matt 13:19; )
Luke 8:13; "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away.
This is interesting in the fact that satan can come and "take away the word from their heart". This passage is often used against the argument of "once saved always saved".
But either way, it seems having the word in your heart is also a requirement to be saved.
Mark 4:17; words this passage slightly differently.
Mark 4:17; and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.

So far we have heard that some things required to be saved are belief, baptism, enduring to the end, and keeping the word in your heart. Is anything else required to be saved?
Luke 13:23; And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them,
Luke 13:24; "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
Luke 13:25; "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.'
Luke 13:26; "Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets';
Luke 13:27; and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'
Luke 13:28; "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.

I believe that most humans aren't even trying to enter the narrow gate, they are happily headed down the path to destruction. But there are "many" (verse 24) that are striving to enter the narrow gate
and even though they are striving they will not be able to. Once the gate is shut, no one else can come in. These aren't strangers, but people who ate and drank in his presence and heard his teachings (verse 26)
They even professed him to be "Lord" (verse 25). So in answer to the question posed in verse 23, Jesus replies in verse 27 depart from me, you evildoers. So it seems practicing evil is forbidden if you really
want to be saved. So that adds yet another requirement to our growing list above. Notice verse 28, it says some will be thrown out of the kingdom of God.

Matt 19:23; And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matt 19:24; "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
Matt 19:25; When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?"
Matt 19:26; And looking at them Jesus said to them, "With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

In John 3, we have probably the most well known, and often quoted verse in the entire Bible, John 3:16;
John 3:16; "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:17; "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
John 3:18; "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God
The verses above seem to indicate three things to me.
1. You have to believe (to have eternal life)
2. Jesus doesn't judge the world (the unsaved, however he does judge believers) and that the world "might" be saved through him. (Some Bibles say "should be").
3. Non-believers are judged by the father.
The passage above seems to equate not perishing and having eternal life as the same thing as being saved, but it's possible it could also mean being saved from the judgment of the father.

John 5:34; is similar.
John 5:34; "But the testimony which I receive is not from man, but I say these things so that you may be saved.
Again it says "might be" or "may be" or "should be" saved, not that you "are" saved.

John 10:9; "I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
John 10:10; "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.
The passage above is generally taken of two different ways.
1. All you have to do is enter through Jesus and you will be saved.
2. Entering through Jesus is one of the things you have to do to be saved, but not the only thing. In other words no one will be saved without going through Jesus.

Acts 2:21; 'AND IT SHALL BE THAT EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.'
Some people ask me, why do you post verses in upper-case to emphasize them? I don't, some of my Bibles already have the verses in upper case whenever the verse is a quote of the Old Testament.
I'm just copying and pasting the verse in the case it's already in. In any case, (no pun intended) the verse above seems to say all we have to do is call on Jesus to be saved. However the very next verse says this sentence
is directed to the Jews or "men of Israel" to let them know that Jesus is a requirement to be saved. That Jesus is the Lord.

Acts 2:47; praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.
Non free-will calvinists use this verse to say only God can cause people to be saved.

Acts 4:12; "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."
Two verses before this, we see it's talking about Jesus here. But again, no one is saved without going through Jesus.

Acts 11:13; "And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, 'Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here;
Acts 11:14; and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'
This was directed from Peter to Cornelius (a gentile). Again it could be taken as the Holy Spirit already knew they would accept it, or it's possible that the meaning here is simply
"you will be saved if you accept these words" also your family will be saved if they also accept them.

Acts 15:11; "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."
This verse is often quoted to support one of the 5 solas. However, the interesting thing is that faith in Christ is also required (so we have 3 sola's, not one)
By grace alone, by faith alone, by Christ alone.
Again, does this verse imply that all we need is grace? Or is it saying without grace no one is saved?

When Paul and Silas were "broken out of jail" the jailer asked them...
Acts 16:30; and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Acts 16:31; They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Acts 16:32; And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together with all who were in his house.
Acts 16:33; And he took them that very hour of the night and washed their wounds, and immediately he was baptized, he and all his household.
Acts 16:34; And he brought them into his house and set food before them, and rejoiced greatly, having believed in God with his whole household
It's interesting that is seems to say all you have to do is believe, but then it goes on to say they were also baptized. (was this also a requirement?)
It also mentions that his family believed, so his faith alone doesn't seem to be able to save his entire family.

Wow, this is getting to be a rather long post and I'm not even done with being saved. Much less sanctification, redemption and eternal life. *sigh*
Hopefully I'll get more time this afternoon.

The mistake is to think that saved means only to escape eternal torment in hellfire.

Saved can mean spiritually, physically (healing), or saved from persecutors etc. The word saved in Greek is a very general word and must be applied in context to get the specific meaning. The word saved is typically used to mean an escape (from hell), but its true meaning is more than that, it also implies restoration and healing. Actually salvation for a Christian is not only escape from hell but also a healing of the soul and spirit. So it covers all these things.

Acts 2:21 for example, can mean saved spiritually or saved physically. The context here is saved from hellfire, but calling upon the Lord's name to saved can also be done in times of physical danger, and Stephen did this when he was being stoned.

 

[james1523]

The kingdom of heaven means different things to different people at different times and so it is in the Bible.

Heaven is a place (spiritual, physical or both) but it's also like having a membership, kind of like being a member of the animal kingdom for example.
You may think that just because you are in the kingdom of heaven you are saved, but that isn't necessarily true, for example...

Matt 13:47; "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind;
Matt 13:48; and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away.

The kingdom of heaven has good fish and bad fish, the bad fish are eventually thrown out.
We see this again in the parable of the wheat and tares, the field has both wheat and tares, the tares are eventually thrown out and burned up.

Mat 13:24 Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
Matt 13:27; "The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
Matt 13:28; "And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves *said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'
Matt 13:29; "But he *said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
Matt 13:30; 'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'"

We see that some things are "thrown out".
Matt 5:13; "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.
Luke 13:28; "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.
Luke 14:35; "It is useless either for the soil or for the manure pile; it is thrown out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear."

In Luke 10:18; we see that Satan was once in the kingdom of heaven, but was cast out.

Matt 7:21; "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

"Kingdom of heaven" is the kingdom of God in the specific dispensation of the gospel age of grace. Kingdom of heaven can mean God's rule and reign in our hearts, and in that sense, only believers are in the kingdom of heaven. Kingdom of heaven can also mean the church, the kingdom of God on earth, and in this sense, people, unbelievers, can be thrown out.

A believer cannot be thrown out of the kingdom of heaven, being the rule and reign of God in the spirit, but they can be thrown out of the church, for temporary punishment for their crimes. And they can be thrown out in the future manifestation of God's kingdom on earth -the millenial reign of Christ.

 

[B-A-C]

A believer cannot be thrown out of the kingdom of heaven, being the rule and reign of God in the spirit, but they can be thrown out of the church, for temporary punishment for their crimes. And they can be thrown out in the future manifestation of God's kingdom on earth -the millenial reign of Christ.

In a way, I agree with this statement. A "tare" is still a tare no matter what garden it is in. A "bad fish" is a bad fish no matter who's net he is in. A tree that produces "bad fruit or nor no fruit" is still a bad tree no matter
who's field it is in. But I think when you say believer.. maybe it needs to be qualified as a "true believer". There are many people who believe they are believers, but truly aren't. Yet there are several verses that say
that say "the kingdom of heaven is likened unto ..." then it goes on to say it's like a garden with tares, or a net with bad fish, or a field with a bad tree, or a wedding feast with 5 foolish virgins, etc...
So were they in the kingdom of heaven or not? Either way, they were thrown out into the outer darkness or into the fire to be burned up.

 

[B-A-C]

It is so difficult to have a thread like this without opposing views popping up. Iron sharpens iron,eh? (Prov 27:17
Is it possible for Calvinists, moderates. Wesleyans, and Armenians to live in peace? I would hope as God's children we can.

Besides the typical once saved always saved and predestination threads, I have found some other differences that may not be resolvable. It all goes back to your world-view of God.

1. Unitarian/Universalist - Everyone is saved and there's nothing you can do about it. Lifestyle, belief and sin doesn't matter.
2. Antimonianist - Everyone who professes to believe in Jesus is saved, Lifestyle and "bad behavior" do not matter.
3. Extreme Calvinist - God chooses who is saved and who isn't saved and there's nothing you can do about it. In fact he controls everything we do, there is no free-will at all. (even concerning sin).
4. Moderate Calvinist - God chooses who is is and who isn't saved, but you control the rest of your decisions.
5. Wesleyan - We ourselves make the choice to be saved. God wants everyone to be saved but we have the ability to reject salvation. You control all your decisions.
6. Armenian - We ourselves make the choice to be saved, in fact we make all of our choices, we can be influenced by the Holy Spirit but we have the ability to go against what the Holy Spirit is directing us to do.

It seems that there are some verses that could be taken to promote any of the views above. So how do we resolve this? Is it even necessary in all situations?
Some of the views above are considered anathema, cultist teachings that should not be tolerated. Some of the views above are considered "close enough" by other factions.

Once saved always saved - what is there to say here. Hundreds of verses have been given on both sides, yet I don't think anyone's opinion has ever changed about this.
Predestination - this is similar to OSAS. Hundreds of verses have been given on both sides, but I have yet to see anyone's opinion of this ever be changed.

Along similar lines, but slightly different are the way effects of decisions are viewed.
1. My life style and decisions do not matter at all.
2. My life style and decisions matter, but God makes them all for me (I have no free-will).
3. My life style and decisions matter, the Holy Spirit will persuade me to make the right choices and decisions, but I can refuse His persuasion.
4. My life style and decisions matter, I am totally 100% responsible for all my decisions, no choice I make is made unless I choose to make it.
5. My life style is evidence of my decisions but I am powerless to do anything about them.
6. My life style is evidence of my decisions and I should keep making the right decisions with Gods help.
7. My life style is evidence of my decision, and I want God to help me, but often I still make the wrong choices.
8. My lifestyle is evidence of my decision and I don't care, I know I'm going to hell, but I don't care.

All of the world views above are tied to how you view the forgiveness of sin. Almost everyone agrees that God knows the future, however we ourselves do not.
1. All of my past sins were forgiven at the moment of salvation, but not my future sins, I must confess all of them in order to be forgiven.
2. All of my past sins were forgiven at the moment of salvation, but not my future sins, I can not remember all of them all of the time so there is grace for those. I should also acknowledge and take ownership of my sins.
3. All of my past sins were forgiven at the moment of salvation (however the only sin is unbelief) so since I am a believer now, I cannot sin anymore.
4. All of my past and future sins were forgiven at the moment of salvation and I never have to ask for forgiveness for any sin I commit now that I am saved.
5. All of my past and future sins were forgiven at the moment of salvation, but I still ask for forgiveness and show thankfulness for this forgiveness from time to time, I should also acknowledge and take ownership of my sins.

Along with sins we ourselves commit, the world view about how we affect others is different.
1. It doesn't matter what I do or say around someone else, everyone is responsible for their own choices.
2. It doesn't matter what I do or say around someone else, people don't have free-will about their choices anyway.
3. It doesn't matter what I do or say around someone else, everyone is saved no matter what.
4. It does matter what I do and say, I will be held accountable for not not witnessing to others when I had the chance.
5. It does matter what I do and say, I can cause other believers to stumble, and non-believers to blaspheme the name of God.
6. It does matter what I do and say around others, I should persuade them to become a believer if possible (to save them from eternal damnation and hell-fire).
7. It does matter what I do and say around others because these are the deeds I will be judged for by Jesus.

There are of course many more, but are these resolvable? Is it required that they all be resolved?

 

[james1523]

In a way, I agree with this statement. A "tare" is still a tare no matter what garden it is in. A "bad fish" is a bad fish no matter who's net he is in. A tree that produces "bad fruit or nor no fruit" is still a bad tree no matter
who's field it is in. But I think when you say believer.. maybe it needs to be qualified as a "true believer". There are many people who believe they are believers, but truly aren't. Yet there are several verses that say
that say "the kingdom of heaven is likened unto ..." then it goes on to say it's like a garden with tares, or a net with bad fish, or a field with a bad tree, or a wedding feast with 5 foolish virgins, etc...
So were they in the kingdom of heaven or not? Either way, they were thrown out into the outer darkness or into the fire to be burned up.

Actually a virgin means a true believer in the Scriptures. An unbeliever is called a harlot, or otherwise.
So there are three types of people:
Tares are bad trees with bad fruit - "false believers" - lake of fire for them.
Foolish virgins are good trees (wheat) with no fruit - "true but lazy believers" - outer darkness for them, and then lake of fire or kingdom of heaven depending upon whether they learnt their lesson or not.
Wise virgins are good trees (wheat) with good fruit - "true and faithful believers" - kingdom of heaven for them.

 

[B-A-C]

Another difference is simply conservative and radical thinking.

Over the years being a radical has come to mean someone who wants change.
Being a conservative has come to mean someone who wants things to stay the same.

But originally a conservative was someone who believe man was born evil (born unto sin) and learned how to "be good" from an outside source (Jesus in this case).
A radical was someone who believed that man was born good (not the same thing as innocent) and learned how to "be bad" from an outside influence (other humans or satan).

There have been some extensive studies done on this over the years. In two separate orphanages in the Soviet Union during the 1970's children who were mostly unattended
other than basic survival (diaper changing and food) were discovered to be able to be selfish ("it's mine") lie ("I didn't take it") physically hit each other and steal from one another.