The Truth About Salvation
- Thread starter RJ
- Start date
RJ
Active
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2009
- Messages
- 4,080
- We are no longer under Old Testament Priests. The OT Priest help to cover over our sins with the annual culmination of Day of Atonement. Jesus is our final atonement and only priest because he "took away" our sins and sat down forever!
- Jesus gave the Lord's Prayer to the "Disciples". He answered there request on how to pray and gave it to them while still fully under the law. At that time, no one could and did uphold the fullness of the law like Jesus. Give us this day our daily bread....Jesus was giving them this prayer and the expectation is that they would ask for forgiveness on a daily basis....this is how you did it under the law.
- Please, I am not saying that saying it daily is wrong but with the intent of some how keeping your salvation secured on a daily basis is not a part of atonement by Grace....Under grace, I would feel that God would ask: "Why do you come to me daily for something I have already provide?
- It is a part of understanding what truly grace is and the above is not a major sticking point for me!
i'm still on the fence about priests as titles-In Matt 8:4 Jesus refers someone to see a priest, He didn't condemn the name.
In Rev 1:6 - we are referred to as kings and priests in His coming kingdom. I believed it was a service connotation rather than a reference to divinity
like the " Father " is.
There is no daily requirement for prayer under the Law but we are human and we slip sometimes.
In Romans 6:1-2 we are to resist and fight against the tendency to break the Laws of God which define sin.
The Holy Spirit gives us the strength to overcome temptation when it arises.
Being under grace we no longer are under the dominion of sin and it's death penalty.
I believe we are in a state of being saved and we need to employ renewed repentance as often as necessary.
Jesus said in Matthew 24:13- He who endures to the end shall be saved-future tense.
Salvation leads to eternal life.
We cannot maintain perfect obedience-we need spiritual help to remain justified with God
that help comes in the form of the Holy Spirit
RJ
Active
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2009
- Messages
- 4,080
- i'm still on the fence about priests as titles-In Matt 8:4 Jesus refers someone to see a priest, He didn't condemn the name You are confusing this verse with the New Testament and Old Covenant. Jesus said these words as recording in the New Testament gospel but it was said in a time before his death and totally under the Old Covenant and not the New which we live under.
- There is no daily requirement for prayer under the Law but we are human and we slip sometimes. And we are no longer under the law as Jesus and the Disciples were when he gave the Lord's Prayer!
- I believe we are in a state of being saved and we need to employ renewed repentance as often as necessary. I think we are saved and in a process of refining to be more and more like Jesus and having a repentant heart is a fruit of the spirit in us.
- Jesus said in Matthew 24:13- He who endures to the end shall be saved-future tense. I personally think you are using this wrong for us and our salvation by grace. There is nothing in the Bible that says, once Jesus is in you that he will leave you; just the opposite because he said he would never leave or forsake us. When you recieve the Holy Spirit in you, you are "Born Again"! The Bible says no where that you can be unborned!
- We need to really separate out what is given to us in the New Testament between that which was given to us under the law and the Old Covenant and what was given to us after Jesus's death and the New Covenant of grace. Much of what Jesus did in the New Testament was done under the cofines and restrictions of the Old Covenant!
- We cannot maintain perfect obedience-we need spiritual help to remain justified with God
that help comes in the form of the Holy Spirit Amen to that!
Last edited:
What do you mean when you say we are no longer under the Law?
Jesus will never forsake us, true. But WE may depart from His way and truth by being willfully disobedient to the Law even when we have been enlightened by the Holy Spirit.
Read Hebrews 6 and 10 which show that you can fall from grace.
If we are not now perfect and sin we can fall out of alignment with God and we need help to remain aligned.
The Bible constantly teaches our salvation is conditional on obedience to the Law-The Ten Commandments
Are we saved now-no. Salvation is ultimately the gift of eternal life but now we still are only flesh and blood.
1Tim 4 talks about some will depart from the faith and later near the end time there will be a great falling away. Losing salvation is a possibility according to scripture
Does God require anything from us that are converted and under grace-yes-obey his commandments - Heb 5:9
we can lose our salvation if we turn from the Law - 2Peter 2:21
Jesus says if you want eternal life which is the result of salvation obey the Law-the commandments.
God gives His Holy Spirit to those who obey Him-obey what? the Ten Commandments.
Are we saved by grace alone? no way according to the New Testament.. Something the apostles taught years after Jesus departed,
why would Jesus tell us to strive to overcome if there is nothing we have to do after being under grace?
Phil 3: 8-14 -shows pressing forward towards the mark for the prize-eternal life.
Do not be deceived by false teachers.
The New Covenant of the Spiritual aspects of the Law replaces the Old Covenant of physical requirements, But the Law remains the same.
Remember Jesus said that He did not come to destroy the Law-why would we believe otherwise?
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jun 19, 2008
- Messages
- 5,763
Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
Romans 10:4
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Romans 8:2
Free from the law, O happy condition,
Jesus has bled and there is remission,
Cursed by the law and bruised by the fall,
Grace hath redeemed us once for all.*
*PP Bliss 1873
RJ
Active
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2009
- Messages
- 4,080
The key to understanding this issue is knowing that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to reveal to the Israelites how to obey and please God (the Ten Commandments, for example). Some of the laws were to show the Israelites how to worship God and atone for sin (the sacrificial system). Some of the laws were intended to make the Israelites distinct from other nations (the food and clothing rules). None of the Old Testament law is binding on Christians today. When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law
Romans 10:4
Galatians 3:23-25
Ephesians 2:15
Last edited:
Jesus is our great high priest (Heb 4:14). Every believer is a priest of the Gospel (Rom 15:16, 1 Peter 2:5), but no one is a priest for anybody else. Paul was a priest of the Gospel and we are too. As priests, the sacrifice that we offer is the souls of those who have been saved through our testimony.
I personally pray the Lord's prayer daily, and sometimes more than that. We need to ask God's forgiveness daily for all the things we need to be cleansed of during our sleep and during our daily walk, so we can remain in the Spirit. This is not for our salvation position but for our salvation experience. Sometimes if we neglect to ask God's forgiveness, trouble will come, we try to pray, but God is not there and feels far away, because we are in our flesh. This is because He does not forgive us or hear our prayers when we have not confessed our sins (Ps 66:18), and the turmoil we experience becomes His disciplining, which leads us back to confession to bring us back to the Spirit.
I personally pray the Lord's prayer daily, and sometimes more than that. We need to ask God's forgiveness daily for all the things we need to be cleansed of during our sleep and during our daily walk, so we can remain in the Spirit. This is not for our salvation position but for our salvation experience. Sometimes if we neglect to ask God's forgiveness, trouble will come, we try to pray, but God is not there and feels far away, because we are in our flesh. This is because He does not forgive us or hear our prayers when we have not confessed our sins (Ps 66:18), and the turmoil we experience becomes His disciplining, which leads us back to confession to bring us back to the Spirit.
Last edited:
When the Bible speaks of the Law it is usually referring to the 10 Commandments.
Jesus said I came not to destroy the Law.
When you look at Romans 10:4 the word "end" is from the Greek word " telos" which generally is recognized in this verse as meaning " the aim or purpose ".
Salvation is the " end " result of Christ's righteousness.
The end or goal or objective of the Law is to point out the righteous mind and character we strive for.
this verse does not free you from the 10 Commandments it shows you what you can expect.
as another example, In 1Tim 1:5 we see "telos" end is used to convey purpose of the commandment is love.
In Romans 8:2 - Paul is saying with the help of God's spirit he can now resist the pulls of his carnal nature
we are free from the bondage of past sins
Gal 2:20
-isn't Paul saying that the person he was in the past is now gone, replaced by the presence of the spiritual influence of Christ.
and he credits the faithfulness of the son of God not his own efforts
Last edited:
B-A-C
Loyal
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2008
- Messages
- 11,877
Yes we are free from the penalty of sin (death) as believers.
But what about non-believers? Are they free from the penalty of sin?
Can a true believer still sin after they become a believer? If so, what determines if the act they committed (homosexuality, adultery, murder, etc..) is a sin or not?
B-A-C
Loyal
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2008
- Messages
- 11,877
Well obviously there were no Christians in the OT (as Christ had not yet come).
But there are a couple of dozen verses that say Gentiles who wanted to become believers fell under the law.
Ecc 12:13; The conclusion, when all has been heard, is: fear God and keep His commandments, because this applies to every person.
Every person, not just Jews. Rahab was a Gentile, Ruth was a Gentile, the entire city of Sodom/Gomorrah was Gentiles,
Ninevah, where God sent Jonah was a Gentile city.
Jos 8:32; He wrote there on the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he had written, in the presence of the sons of Israel.
Jos 8:33; All Israel with their elders and officers and their judges were standing on both sides of the ark before the Levitical priests who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, the Gentiles as well as the Israelites. Half of them stood in front of Mount Gerizim and half of them in front of Mount Ebal, just as Moses the servant of the LORD had given command at first to bless the people of Israel.
Jos 8:34; Then afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessing and the curse, according to all that is written in the book of the law.
Jos 8:35; There was not a word of all that Moses had commanded which Joshua did not read before all the assembly of Israel with the women and the little ones and the Gentiles who were living among them.
Ishmael (the son of Hagar) was a Gentile, why did he have to be circumcised?
Timothy was a Greek, why did he have to be circumcised?
Anyone who preaches Gentiles were never under the law doesn't know the Bible.
Rom 2:11; God does not play favorites.
Rom 2:12; Here's the reason: Whoever sins without having laws from God will still be condemned to destruction. And whoever has laws from God and sins will still be judged by them.
Rom 2:13; People who merely listen to laws from God don't have God's approval. Rather, people who do what those laws demand will have God's approval.
Rom 2:14; For example, whenever non-Jews who don't have laws from God do by nature the things that Moses' Teachings contain, they are a law to themselves even though they don't have any laws from God.
Rom 2:15; They show that some requirements found in Moses' Teachings are written in their hearts. Their consciences speak to them. Their thoughts accuse them on one occasion and defend them on another.
Last edited:
The carnal mind can slip away from any grasp God has on us. It is enmity by nature against god.
How could Judas betray Christ being so close to Him and seeing His miraculous powers.
Paul is speaking to converted Christians in Hebrews 6 and 10.
Falling out of alignment with God is the first step towards losing the indwelling of the HS
the OT was the source of authority for the apostles during their ministry
none of the OT scriptures are irrelevant -2Tim 3:16
hundreds of references to the OT are used in the NT to accentuate the Word of God
The Law-the Ten Commandments are still in effect today, the only thing that was changed was the covenant which is by definition an agreement.
Does the New Covenant do away with God's Law-absolutely not.
Instead it puts His law into our inward parts and writes it in our hearts.
The New Covenant emblazons God's laws-far from doing away with it, the New Covenant makes it apply spiritually.
The Bible says salvation is conditional.
1 Cor 15;2
Heb 2:1-3
Heb 3:6
Heb 3:14
Rev 3:11
If and hold fast are conditional terms and they are used throughout the NT regarding our state of grace.
even Paul in 1 cor 9:27 said he could lose salvation.
Listen to the teacher.
eternal life is at stake.
Last edited:
RJ
Active
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2009
- Messages
- 4,080
This is what basically separates us and our belief in the gospel:
- Paul is speaking to converted Christians in Hebrews 6 and 10. Yes, Paul is talking to converted Christians and aslo to converted Christians about those who are Christians in name only. You have to know how to tell the difference.
- The Bible says salvation is conditional.
1 Cor 15, 2
Heb 2:1-3
Heb 3:6
Heb 3:14
Rev 3:11
No, your interpretation is not the gospel message of salvation by grace but by the law of doing!. Yes all these verses refer to holding , standing and keeping the faith but they do not say a Christian can not do any of these. - I am sorry that you think your faith and salvation are fragile enough to loose it somehow, I do not!
Last edited:
RJ
Active
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2009
- Messages
- 4,080
B-A-C
- I never said gentiles of the Old Testament were not or could not have been under the law; you said that not me! Many worshiped God, look at the Samaratin Woman at the well. For the most part , Gentiles were all non-beleivers and lost.
- A lot of what you say is good and should be followed to the best of our ability. But what we should rely on is the one who is inside us and not so much ourselves! So, what does all you have said above have to do with the gospel and salvation by grace that we now live under as opposed to the Old Covenant and those laws?
If Gentiles are not under any law, then they cannot be held to account.
The Gentiles were and are under the universal laws of morality that applied to everyone.
These laws match at least 6 of the 10 commandments and 1 of the Leviticus laws of the Law of Moses.
God was not as strict with the Gentiles as the Israelites, because Israelites are God's chosen people.
The Gentiles were and are under the universal laws of morality that applied to everyone.
These laws match at least 6 of the 10 commandments and 1 of the Leviticus laws of the Law of Moses.
God was not as strict with the Gentiles as the Israelites, because Israelites are God's chosen people.
Last edited:
DHC
Member
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2013
- Messages
- 1,002
Hello James.
You were not very clear in your post regarding the list of so called moral laws. May I ask you to provide
a list of these moral laws for the sake of the readers of your post. Please do not omit any one of these
moral laws, thanks James.
DHC
Member
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2013
- Messages
- 1,002
Hello B-A-C.
I was reading your post concerning 'Jonah' and the city of 'Nineveh'. There probably
was some justification for using this example from the scripture. To bolster the claim
that the Gentiles were under the law. What I need is the scripture in Jonah that specifies
what commandments the Gentile city of Nineveh were under. All I found was the mention
of 'wicked' and 'violent' ways. Just what the 'wicked and violent ways' are I am not sure?
You did mention later in your post that, 'anyone who preaches Gentiles were never under
the law doesn't know the Bible'. So given that you obviously are an expert on the scripture,
I would require the specific commandments that the people of Nineveh had broken. Because
'wicked' can mean a vast array of sinful practises far beyond the scope of the famous ten
commandments. So I appeal to the most learned of those who know the scriptures, to provide
the list of the specific commandments from the law. We must avoid inference at all costs!
Jonah 4
11...Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know
the difference between their right and left hand.
Sure appears that the residents of Nineveh did not know the law?
Someone who does know gave us a warning.
" Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. - Jesus in Matt 26:41
Now Paul, an apostle of God, imbued with the Holy Spirit knew what Jesus meant.
Romans7:15 shows his frustration and struggle with sin.
Would you call Paul;s admonition fragile?
Why would Peter have to caution us to beware of satan;s influence and tricks if we could never succumb to the spiritual dangers that we face every day. 1 Peter 5:8
Strypes
Member
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2006
- Messages
- 710
But?...
This thread is now eight pages of confusion? Eight pages of The Gospel and ADDED requirements. Eight pages of disagreement. And eight pages of Christians explaining over and over and over again the simplicity of God's grace.
Jesus ... He is what we cling to by faith. HE is the one to whom we hold fast. HE is our salvation.
So STAND THEREFORE.. With the Helment (knowledge, knowing, certainty that JESUS is enough) of SALVATION!
So simple has God made it that we humans want to make it complicated. Knowing Jesus is all that matters.
With Jesus, all the rest falls into place by the power of God through the Holy Spirit. God's plan is perfect. Please stop the disagreement and love others as Jesus has loved you. It is that simple..
Last edited:
These laws are do not commit idolatry, murder, theft, sexual immorality, blasphemy, eating of meat with blood still in it (i.e. eating flesh from a live animal), and maintain justice (i.e. a means to enforce the previous 6 laws). These laws are taken from Genesis 9:4-6, Acts 15:19-21, Jude 1:7, Isaiah 56:1. These are the laws that the Jews knew that the Gentiles must obey to be declared righteous by God. They are considered pillars for human civilization.
I'm not sure where this idea that the Law of Moses only applies to Jews comes from, but Jews themselves don't believe that . Sure, the 613 laws apply to them, and many don't apply to Gentiles, but also many do. Remember that Israel was to serve as God's "light unto the nations" and so the Law of Moses is the highest example of God's requirements for mankind, and if Israel was to serve God as a light to the nations, then the nations themselves must be obligated to live by that light.
Acts 15 itself is proof that the Jews believed their own laws applied to the Gentiles - they were the ones trying to get the Gentiles to obey them.
Last edited:
