The Truth About Salvation
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We must keep the law for obedience to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Gal 6:8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.
Kingdom of Heaven does not mean heaven.
It means we must obey God if we want to come under His ruling and authority.
If you want to be part of God's kingdom you have to obey its rules.
Faith is good but it doesn't do everything.
Try using your "faith alone" to do your weekly grocery shop, and see if it gets you into the supermarket.
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RJ
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Making an analogy of faith alone with grocery shopping is a bit absurd.
Following and striving to keep God's rules is one thing but obeying them is quite another. For to obey them is to follow them perfectly without missing one element or else you would fail all the rules.
If God would have required us to obey his law for our salvation, he would have not given us a New Covenant and replaced the Old Covenant!
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The analogy is probably a symptom of not having my morning dose of caffeine. To do something by faith, means to have faith, and then do it. It does not mean, as some suppose, to merely believe about it and it shall be done. That is like working a miracle, not like living the faith. To me, Barny seems to be the only person on here who believes in faith without actions, and spiritualises the meaning of everything practical (even adultery), so it was really to his post that my point was addressed. My point was, faith is just belief in our heart... to believe is one thing, to do is another. We wouldn't use our faith alone to go shopping, go to school, or love our husbands or wives.. so why do we assume we can use our "faith alone" to obey God? It doesn't make sense. I am not speaking about the old Covenant written law on stone tablets but the moral law of God written on the heart of every believer (Jew or Gentile, makes no difference). Call it rules, law, instructions, commands, makes no difference what word we use - God gave us some "things" He wants us to obey/do/keep/follow/observe. These things are written in our hearts - many of us obey and follow them spontaneously without even realizing it.
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RJ
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- On this subject, I think one of the biggest hurdles we have in understanding each other is our understanding faith here.
- You believe that faith is some how required to be generated from us. I believe faith is much more a mystery and given to us by God as a gift. He gives to each of us our own measure of faith as a gift. We are told by him to nurture and grow this faith from actively hearing his word from others and by us reading it ourselves but, the process is initiated by him alone. I think the better way of saying it is that we are saved by his "Grace" alone and that includes our own measure of faith he gives us.
- Only believers have this gift of faith, so after salvation, this faith without works is dead. In other words, you are still a unbeliever and have not received the Holy Spirit in you!
- These things are written in our hearts - many of us obey and follow them spontaneously without even realizing it. I keep repeating this over and over again, the sticking point here is that you seem to insinuate that , in order to obey God in the right way is to follow and obey his law completely ; with out fail. For people like me, that means perfectly, which is impossible.
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SpiritLedEd
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I think our Shepherd's role is clearly stated in the Twenty Third Psalm:
"Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.
(Ps 23:4)
SLE
I believe everything is related to Christ. Faith is the substantiation of invisible things (Heb 11:1). It is the substantiating ability that God has given us. Substantiate means To give material form to; embody, to make real or actual, firm or solid, to establish by proof or evidence.
Faith or grace is not a thing (like apples or oranges) that can stand alone by itself. Well, theologically they can, but practically they cannot.
I believe that practically, the gift God gives us is Christ, who dwells in us by the Holy Spirit.
From this gift, we obtain all the gifts, including grace and faith.
From the Spirit we obtain grace - Ephesians 4:7
The faith by which we believe in Christ is actually the faith of Christ in us. The indwelling person of Christ in us is giving us the faith for salvation (Rom 3:22).
But this is not to say that there is Christ's faith and our faith. This faith of Christ becomes our faith, by virtue of the union between God's Spirit and our spirit ( 1 Cor 6:17).
Using vine/plant/tree analogy here: when we become saved, the Holy Spirit is grafted to our spirit and we receive His life flowing through us.
All the things of Christ become ours by virtue of this spiritual grafting.
It is correct to say it is the faith of Christ, it is also correct to say it is our faith. It is both the faith of Christ and our faith.
I believe the Christian receives Christ into their innermost being and everything else is from Christ in us.
This is why I do not believe in imparted or imputed righteousness, as if righteousness is a thing that can be given or taken from another person.
Righteousness is Christ's righteousness in us.
Faith is Christ's faith in us.
Grace is Christ's presence and strength in us.
etc.
This is what they mean practically and subjectively to a Christian.Otherwise they are merely theological and objective concepts.
This is why we can not lose faith, because even if we lose everything else, our regenerated spirit remains.
Even if we doubt in our mind, there is something deep inside of us which cannot doubt and which cannot lose faith. This is the faith of Christ who dwells in our spirit.
Today the Spirit is mostly treated as the power to do stuff, like healing or conversions. The Spirit in us is actually Christ Himself, the Eternal Life, in our spirit, who is our own personal dynamo and from which everything else related to God and humanity flows. So everything that Christ is, including everything He suffered on the cross, and everything He went through as a human being, is presently dwelling in us right now. This includes His faith, grace, love, mercy, compassion, forgiveness, endurance, perseverance, patience, obedience, etc.
Yes but I believe it doesn't happen automatically or overnight. Obedience and following them spontaneously is not without effort on our part. We must cooperate with God, in dealing with our flesh, and in living in obedience to His commands. It requires our dedication, diligence, and effort to undertake spiritual exercise.
To be sinless to me means to have no unconfessed sin in our life. I do not mean that it is impossible to sin.
When I speak of obeying God, it is from the point of view of a believer who has been crucified with Christ and received the power of the Spirit.
If we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. And when we don't walk in the Spirit we confess our sins and then walk in the Spirit again. Then it will be possible to obey God. But no matter how much we fail, His grace is always there because He never leaves nor forsakes us.
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DHC
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Hello James.
The words a person speaks are indicative of what the person believes in their heart.
A person who believes in Jesus will speak about Jesus to other people. A person
that loves the footy will speak about the footy. Someone who loves formula one will
speak about formula one. A person that does not carry the testimony of Jesus Christ
in the verbal form does not believe in Jesus from the heart.
For the testimony of Jesus Christ is an integral part of the belief in the Gospel of
Jesus Christ. They are never separate events, you speak what you really believe.
Therefore I do not agree that a person can be a silent believer in Jesus Christ.
It is impossible to keep the Gospel hidden within!
Eternal life is our reward. It is not inherent in us now.Believing we have eternal life in dwelling in us now is an unbiblical view.
Adam the first human never gained immortality.
People like Plato and Augustine regarded men's souls as being eternal.
The Greek doctrine of the immortality of the soul has polluted theology unduly on this point-it's an example of the Hellenization of Christian doctrine.
We see the "flesh" differently.
You see the desires of the flesh in purely physical terms, thinking it's physical desires for wine, women, song.
I see it in spiritual terms (as scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:13,14.), as desires for righteousness through works of the law.
That is desires for spiritual sexual immorality (1Cor 6:17.) with Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24.
And spiritual drunkenness with the spiritual wine of fornication, Rev 17:1.
Those who sow for the desires of the flesh are described in Rom 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God
And those who "sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life" are those who believe in Jesus.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
It seems like you are saying here that believing God's promise that if we believe on Jesus we will have eternal life, is not sufficient and that works of the law must go with it.
Mixing works of the law with grace is actually sowing to please the flesh.
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DHC
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Back to you James.
Matthew 12:34
You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.
Jesus stated very clearly that a person speaks about what they are really interested in. It is what fills the heart within
that the mouth testifies about. If you really love Jesus then you will find it difficult to keep the peace. A great way to
understand other people is to listen to what they talk about. The mouth clearly states what is within their heart!
Revelations 12:11
And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony,
Revelations 12:17
...who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
RJ
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So, I think we agree more than we think. We come from different backgrounds , have different influences but essentially agree to the basic things here. I for one, was not raised up in a Church. I do not have anything that was taught to me by another man. I am not saying there is anything wrong with that but it can lead to issues for some. For me, I was born again outside of any water and yet know that , as you say, Christ is in me. I do not require any man to tell me I must or should have done this or done that. God and his word has taught me everything. He knock, I opened and he came in; I am convinced of that. If some say that was not the right way or that is not how it is supposed to be done, that is their problem , not mine.
I don't think that confession is a daily requirement to stay good with God. I personally, can confess my sins all I want but, Just not fulfilling the "lust of the flesh" is all that could separate us from God; we sin in so many different ways, many times we don't even realize it, who takes care of those times if not for Jesus.
Yes, having a continued repentant heart is a work that proves your faith is alive but, a daily confession to maintain your salvation is not a requirement. When the disciples asked how to pray, Jesus gave them the Lord's Prayer. I think it is prudent to understand that Jesus gave that to them "under the law". At that time, no one upheld the law as perfectly as Jesus did, so this was a daily way to pray. We are no longer under the law and dependent for that type of atonement. Now, we are fully under Grace. So, in Christ there is no condemnation.
RJ
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- Oh boy, I couldn't wait to tell someone! I immediately had this feeling as in Romans 8:16 as it describes the Holy Spirit stirring in me. So when I read that and many other scriptures, still today, some 12 years later, they convince me what happened.
- Also like in John 4:14....I still recognize this fountain of living water welling up inside me.
- I started from the very moment of my salvation with the desire to testify to others, first it was may family and then those at church...those that would listen!
- This was a burning desire from the very first !! Today, when satin tries to creep too close , I just go back to the day I first believed ( like in the old gospel song "Amazing Grace") and I remember these initial feelings and he runs like a rabbit!
- Believing in Christ may be easy for many. It was for me, he knock and I invited him in; it was that simple!. But, believing in him could cost you everything! Scriptures are pretty clear about Christian Persecution!
Hi DHC, John 12:42 says people can believe in Christ without openly acknowledging their faith. Just because they are not open about it does not mean they don't believe in Christ:
John 12:42 Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not openly acknowledge their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue;
And if they have believed in Christ then they have received the Spirit of God and they are saved.
This verse shows clearly what I'm saying - it is easy to believe in Christ, but harder to live for Him (because of persecution, fear etc).
I do not condemn anyone who has converted to Christ in a country in which they will be persecuted, for not openly testifying about their faith. Persecution can happen but we are not to seek persecution, and we must be wise and think of our family as well, particularly if conversion endangers our whole family not just ourselves. In some situations it is foolish to openly testify about Christ, when more could be accomplished for God by living life quietly.
There is nothing wrong with being a Christian in secret, why do you think there are so many under ground churches holding secret meetings? If all those churches came out openly, they would be persecuted, killed, and then the testimony of Jesus would be finished in that place.
On a related sub-topic, the "testimony of Jesus" is more about who we are, than what we say.
It is possible for salvation to result simply by the Lord's presence dwelling with a believer and the non-verbal fruit that they exhibit . People observe much more than what they hear with their ears.
Christians are to be people of "few words": Ecc 5:2, 9:17, 1 Thess 4:11
In Church I often observe that people who use many words in prayer or praise are often the people with the least amount of spiritual maturity. One Sunday they are there shouting and praising God loudly with much words, and the next week they are gone and never return.
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John 13:10 "Jesus answered, "Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean..... "
Frequent confession is to wash our feet. As we walk through life we pick up many dirty things, habits, thoughts, etc, mostly from the world around us, and also from within our flesh too. There are things we've done or haven't done that we do not even know about. For this we need a thorough confession. This is something that is to be led by the Spirit from within us, not by using a "checklist" as they do in some ministries. We simply go to the Lord and say "Lord show me what I need to confess, shine your light on the areas of darkness", and then go from there. The goal of confession is to bring us closer to God in experience. Even many years after becoming a Christian, there are things within us that continually pop up - lust, anger, pride. We need a thorough confession to deal with these things, not for salvation from hellfire, but for experiencing God's life, spiritual growth, and salvation from the negative things which abide in our flesh. The spiritual metaphor for this in scripture is "trimming the lamp". Matt 25:7 "Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. All Christians are virgins, but some trim their lamps and some don't. The ones that don't trim their lamps don't shine much light, but only much smoke. The ones that trim their lamps can burn and shine brightly.
Water baptism is essentially to testify to others, the change that has taken place in our heart. Just like verbal confession is a manifestation of the faith in our heart, water baptism is a visible manifestation of the crucifixion of our flesh which has taken place by the Spirit in our heart. I personally accepted Christ and received the Spirit 20 years before I was water baptized, so I know what you are talking about. Water baptism is a symbol but it also did something as well. After I was water baptized the presence of God was much stronger and I was released from a number of issues I had. So God did something through the water baptism that I cannot deny, so for me it was more than "just a symbol". I was saved before I was water baptized, but I was saved even more after water baptism. Now I understand that salvation is a process with many stages, first our spirit, then our soul, and in future our body. If we ever feel stagnated and we've lost the joy of our salvation, and the things that used to satisfy us don't satisfy anymore, that is an indication that God wants us to do something to bring us to the next stage of growth. Just like we don't expect our children to remain children forever, God doesn't expect us to remain the same as we were when we first accepted Christ.
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DHC
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Hello James.
Matthew 5
11 Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil
against you because of Me. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the
same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
How could a person be persecuted for Jesus Christ if the person does not declare that they
believe in Jesus Christ?
The prophets of old were not persecuted because they were better behaved than everyone
else. The prophets of old were persecuted directly, because they spoke the words God gave
them to speak. What the prophets spoke always conflicted with the general sentiment of
the crowd.
You quoted (John 12:42) to support your idea that people can remain silent about Jesus.
But for some unknown reason you neglected the rest of the verse, James. Here is the full
verse that states the opposite of what you claimed. This verse does not "shows clearly what"
you are saying, it states the opposite.
John 12:42
42 Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they
were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43 for they
loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.
They did not confess because they preferred the approval of men, James. There must be the
confession of the belief in Jesus Christ otherwise the belief is not confirmed. Your choice
of verse was strangely enforcing the testimony of Jesus Christ. A faith that is not confessed
is not a faith by any means.
Yes James, we are less outspoken about most worldly topics but zealous to speak out about
Jesus Christ. I wonder what Paul would have thought of your interpretation?
Acts 20
9...Paul kept on talking, he was overcome by sleep and fell down from the third floor and
was picked up dead. 10 But Paul went down and fell upon him, and after embracing him,
he said, “Do not be troubled, for his life is in him.” 11 When he had gone back up and had
broken the bread and eaten, he talked with them a long while until daybreak, and then left.
Paul talked all night James, Paul never remained silent, even when the apostles were
instructed not to talk about Jesus they persisted.
Acts 4:18
And when they had summoned them, they commanded them not to speak or teach at all in
the name of Jesus.
The apostles did not speak about God, the apostles did everything in the name of Jesus Christ.
Whenever a person who claims to be a Christian and does not mention the name of Jesus Christ I am wary
James. Instead of 'praising God' they should have been praising the name of Jesus Christ.
Colossians 3:17
Whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.
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Only God has immortality now 1Tim 6:14-16
Immortality is a gift of God given only to the saints in the first resurrection at the the time of Jesus Christ's return.
Millions of Christians believe that it is an inherent quality of the human soul.
Show me where the two words " immortal soul " together are found anywhere in the Old Testament or the New Testament scriptures.
Immortality of the soul of men from the past or now is a false doctrine perpetrated by pagan philosophers .
Eternal life is only available through Jesus Christ at the time of His second coming.
What millions of people believe will happen when they die is a false religion.
