It Is All Spiritual

[RJ]

John 4:24
We all should be Charismatics; God says must!
I don't go to a "Charismatic Church" but I realize it is all comes by way of the Holy Spirit: God's grace, your salvation, your works and your understanding of Jesus Christ, The Living Word or the Bible.

The Bible, which is the Word of God, reveals God's plan for every person. The plan is for our redemption or salvation by accepting Jesus Christ as our personal Savior. Spiritually, if you are repentant of your sins you will be regenerated from the "old self". As soon as we do this we are saved.Once we have chosen to follow God's plan for our lives, we are responsible not only to conform our own lives and characters to Christ's image, but to share Christ's love with others so that their lives can be transformed. We can fulfill our responsibilities as we respond to the Holy Spirit who reveals God to us when we study the Bible.
The study of God's Word demands our best attention. The Holy Spirit teaches us, but we must apply ourselves as well. It takes careful study of the Bible to understand its deep meanings.

Exclude the physical things you may do in your life to secure your salvation but, rather focus on the spiritual things and your physical actions will take care of themselves.Spirituall recieve Jesus Christ and you will be saved. If you want to grow in faith, it can only come spiritually and through the word of God.
1 Corinthians 3:16
Romans 8:9

 

[james1523]

We have to take care of both the spiritual and physical things - nothing takes care of itself. If we have faith in God, if we have an unseen spiritual experience with Him, then we must also make the effort to take care of the physical things as well. We can pray and read the Bible as much as we want, but this doesn't mean that things get done on the physical side without our effort.

Genuine Christianity embraces both the spiritual and the physical, and to be spiritual is to embrace both the seen and unseen things. To be a spiritual person is to take care of orphans and widows. To be spiritually repentant is not merely to have an inward realization of sin, but to accompany that with some act of repentance such as making right the wrongs we did (e.g. Zacheus giving money back to those he stole it from), pouring expensive perfume on Jesus's feet, or being water baptized as a sign of our repentance.

Jesus as our example of true spirituality, physically spent time with sinners, physically touched them and comforted them and provided for their physical needs. This is true spirituality. Jesus was not merely a spirit in a human shell, he was both God and man. Jesus's glorified body is spiritual and also physical - it is not a ghost - Jesus could be touched, he could eat food (Luke 24:39).

Faith is not merely believing inwardly but also showing that outwardly. Faith for salvation involves both confession with the mouth and belief in the heart (Rom 10:9).

Even though Jesus said we must worship God in Spirit and truth, does not mean we neglect the physical. Very often in our practical experience, a physical act of kindness or charity brings us closer to God.

One of the two extremes says that only the physical matters, Jesus was only a man. The other extreme says that only the spiritual matters, Jesus was a Spirit in a human body.
There is a view in Christianity today that says we are spirits or spirit beings in human bodies. This is not from the Bible this is from New Age thought. Our bodies are just as much us as our spirit or soul.
The Bible teaches we are body, soul and spirit and God wants to save them all (1 Thess 5:23) - . The three cannot be separated just as the persons of the Trinity cannot be separated.

To separate the spiritual from the physical is like saying "my stomach will eat lunch". We don't say that, we say "I will eat lunch". Our stomach is just as much us as our hands or mind or brain. In the same way, genuine spirituality involves our whole being, "body, soul and spirit".

God put the book of James in the Bible to protect us from the idea that we are spiritual if we take care only of the unseen things.

If we realize this we can be protected from any false doctrines that say that only the unseen things matter.

 

[RJ]

We have to take care of both the spiritual and physical things - nothing takes care of itself. If we have faith in God, if we have an unseen spiritual experience with Him, then we must also make the effort to take care of the physical things as well. We can pray and read the Bible as much as we want, but this doesn't mean that things get done on the physical side without our effort.

Genuine Christianity embraces both the spiritual and the physical, and to be spiritual is to embrace both the seen and unseen things. To be a spiritual person is to take care of orphans and widows. To be spiritually repentant is not merely to have an inward realization of sin, but to accompany that with some act of repentance such as making right the wrongs we did (e.g. Zacheus giving money back to those he stole it from), pouring expensive perfume on Jesus's feet, or being water baptized as a sign of our repentance.

Jesus as our example of true spirituality, physically spent time with sinners, physically touched them and comforted them and provided for their physical needs. This is true spirituality. Jesus was not merely a spirit in a human shell, he was both God and man. Jesus's glorified body is spiritual and also physical - it is not a ghost - Jesus could be touched, he could eat food (Luke 24:39).

Faith is not merely believing inwardly but also showing that outwardly. Faith for salvation involves both confession with the mouth and belief in the heart (Rom 10:9).

Even though Jesus said we must worship God in Spirit and truth, does not mean we neglect the physical. Very often in our practical experience, a physical act of kindness or charity brings us closer to God.

One of the two extremes says that only the physical matters, Jesus was only a man. The other extreme says that only the spiritual matters, Jesus was a Spirit in a human body.
There is a view in Christianity today that says we are spirits or spirit beings in human bodies. This is not from the Bible this is from New Age thought. Our bodies are just as much us as our spirit or soul.
The Bible teaches we are body, soul and spirit and God wants to save them all (1 Thess 5:23) - . The three cannot be separated just as the persons of the Trinity cannot be separated.

To separate the spiritual from the physical is like saying "my stomach will eat lunch". We don't say that, we say "I will eat lunch". Our stomach is just as much us as our hands or mind or brain. In the same way, genuine spirituality involves our whole being, "body, soul and spirit".

God put the book of James in the Bible to protect us from the idea that we are spiritual if we take care only of the unseen things.

If we realize this we can be protected from any false doctrines that say that only the unseen things matter.

You have this lust for doing something yourself to secure your salvation. It is not of your works, it is done spiritually by God's grace alone.
I said: Exclude the physical things you may do in your life to secure your salvation but, rather focus on the spiritual things and your physical actions will take care of themselves....
I never said you do not have physical contributions; those are your thoughts not mine.Please stop putiing words in my mouth!
Yes ,you will do some physical things after you are saved. You can't confuse this with your works but, it is Christ's works through you. But, before Christ is in you any works that you do prior to your salvation is nothing to God James! John 15:5....please don't twist this to mean something else!

 

[Barny]

You have this lust for doing something yourself to secure your salvation.

True. James1523 does seem to have lust for physical deeds to secure his salvation.
We see in scripture this is described, spiritually, as the lust of the flesh. The lust of the flesh is to seek to establish one's righteousness by works of the law. This is described, in spiritual terms, in scripture as sexual immorality with Hagar, who is symbolic of righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24.
1Cor 5:1 even describes it (spiritually) as one having his father's (the devil, as Jesus described in John 8:44.) wife (Hagar/righteousness by works of the law).

Such persons are even described in Rev 17:1. as being (spiritually) drunk with the (spiritual) wine of fornication (with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law).

Christians are saved by grace and thus married to Christ. Therefore we should not be lusting after Hagar/righteousness by works of the law.
We cannot mix grace with works of the law.
Rom 11:6.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

James1523 rejects this, and is following a lukewarm doctrine that mixes works of the law with grace.
Anyone preaching such lukewarm doctrines should consider James 3:1,2
My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body.

And note the example of error teaching, that it gives in James 3:6-11
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind. But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless (love) our God and Father, and with it we curse (judge/condemn under the law) men, who have been made in the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceed blessing (love/grace) and cursing (judgement/condemnation under the law). My brethren, these things ought not to be so. Does a spring send forth fresh water (love/grace) and bitter(judgement/condemnation under the law) from the same opening?

 

[clark thompson]

I do not need to cause a show to show I have the Holy Spirit, often times it is the small things.

 

[RJ]

I do not need to cause a show to show I have the Holy Spirit, often times it is the small things.

Sure, the fruits of the spirit through you come in many different ways! 1 Corinthians 12: 4-11

 

[james1523]

You have this lust for doing something yourself to secure your salvation. It is not of your works, it is done spiritually by God's grace alone.
I said: Exclude the physical things you may do in your life to secure your salvation but, rather focus on the spiritual things and your physical actions will take care of themselves....
I never said you do not have physical contributions; those are your thoughts not mine.Please stop putiing words in my mouth!
Yes ,you will do some physical things after you are saved. You can't confuse this with your works but, it is Christ's works through you. But, before Christ is in you any works that you do prior to your salvation is nothing to God James! John 15:5....please don't twist this to mean something else!

I don't have a problem with your statements about the physical things after you are saved, that is not the issue. The issue is your claims that it is "all spiritual" , which I can show from the bible is just not true.

Romans 10:9 says that to be saved we must confess with our mouth and believe in our heart. Confession with the mouth is physical and therefore it is not "all spiritual". And confession with the mouth is something I do, not Christ. I am moving my own mouth, Christ is not moving it for me.

Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13 says whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. Calling on the name of the Lord is something physical we must do to be saved, with our mouth, lungs, mind etc. Christ does not do it for us. Therefore it is not "all spiritual".

Your idea of "spiritual repentance" is also not true. Zacchaeus the tax collector repented by giving back to those he stole from:

Luke 19:1-10 ...But Zacchaeus stood there and said to the Lord, "Behold, half of my possessions, Lord, I shall give to the poor, and if I have extorted anything from anyone I shall repay it four times over."And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house because this man too is a descendant of Abraham. For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save what was lost."

Just as faith without works is dead, also repentance without accompanying works is dead:
Matt 3:8 says "Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God." (New Living Translation).

Repentance is not only a change of heart, but also the accompanying action. It is both the spiritual and physical and not "all spiritual".

 

[james1523]

True. James1523 does seem to have lust for physical deeds to secure his salvation.
We see in scripture this is described, spiritually, as the lust of the flesh. The lust of the flesh is to seek to establish one's righteousness by works of the law. This is described, in spiritual terms, in scripture as sexual immorality with Hagar, who is symbolic of righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24.
1Cor 5:1 even describes it (spiritually) as one having his father's (the devil, as Jesus described in John 8:44.) wife (Hagar/righteousness by works of the law).

Such persons are even described in Rev 17:1. as being (spiritually) drunk with the (spiritual) wine of fornication (with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law).

Christians are saved by grace and thus married to Christ. Therefore we should not be lusting after Hagar/righteousness by works of the law.
We cannot mix grace with works of the law.
Rom 11:6.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

James1523 rejects this, and is following a lukewarm doctrine that mixes works of the law with grace.
Anyone preaching such lukewarm doctrines should consider James 3:1,2
My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment. For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body.

And note the example of error teaching, that it gives in James 3:6-11
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. The tongue is so set among our members that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire by hell. For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and creature of the sea, is tamed and has been tamed by mankind. But no man can tame the tongue. It is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless (love) our God and Father, and with it we curse (judge/condemn under the law) men, who have been made in the similitude of God. Out of the same mouth proceed blessing (love/grace) and cursing (judgement/condemnation under the law). My brethren, these things ought not to be so. Does a spring send forth fresh water (love/grace) and bitter(judgement/condemnation under the law) from the same opening?

You believe a Christian cannot sin. I would be careful saying someone else is giving erroneous teaching in case you bring judgement upon yourself for your own errors.

 

[RJ]

I don't have a problem with your statements about the physical things after you are saved, that is not the issue. The issue is your claims that it is "all spiritual" , which I can show from the bible is just not true.

Romans 10:9 says that to be saved we must confess with our mouth and believe in our heart. Confession with the mouth is physical and therefore it is not "all spiritual". And confession with the mouth is something I do, not Christ. I am moving my own mouth, Christ is not moving it for me.

Acts 2:21 and Romans 10:13 says whoever calls on the Yname of the Lord will be saved. Calling on the name of the Lord is something physical we must do to be saved, with our mouth, lungs, mind etc. Christ does not do it for us. Therefore it is not "all spiritual".

• You take this physicality to the extreme James. It is this kind of theology that traps people in a bondage of doubt or thought being unsaved.
• Yes there can be a physical manifestation with the mouth and lungs...I find it interesting that you mention mind....hmmm, nothing physical there. You could also do all these things with out saying a word, moving a mouth, expanding your lungs, no physical action; just recieve Jesus quitely in your heart and mind. "I will put my word in the hearts and minds of men"..ofcourse you remember and acknowledge that one , right?
• I also find it very odd for you, that you mention all the verses on salvation and none of them mention or require baptism?!

 

[james1523]

You take this physicality to the extreme James. It is this kind of theology that traps people in a bondage of doubt or thought being unsaved.
Yes there can be a physical manifestation with the mouth and lungs...I find it interesting that you mention mind....hmmm, nothing physical there. You could also do all these things with out saying a word, moving a mouth, expanding your lungs, no physical action; just recieve Jesus quitely in your heart and mind. "I will put my word in the hearts and minds of men"..ofcourse you remember and acknowledge that one , right?
I also find it very odd for you, that you mention all the verses on salvation and none of them mention or require baptism?!

"You could also do all these things with out saying a word, moving a mouth, expanding your lungs, no physical action; " Psychic ?, ESP? Makes no sense.

If a person cannot confess Jesus as Lord, then they should have doubt about being unsaved, because they are unsaved. Their salvation is an illusion, because they do not have the fruit that proves their faith and repentance.

It seems that for you, having to do anything at all that God asks us to, is bondage, and we should stay at home and quietly and silently receive Jesus into our heart and mind. But that's not what scripture teaches.

Belief is in the heart but also requires confession with the mouth. Faith without actions is dead.

Romans 10:9 and Romans 10:13 - confession with the mouth or calling on the name of the Lord is a condition for salvation.

Romans 10:14 shows the steps: preaching, hearing, believing, calling. These are the 4 things necessary for salvation. Preaching and hearing and calling are physical. There are 3 physical things and 1 non-physical thing (belief), involved in salvation. Therefore it is not "all spiritual".

The spiritual and physical work together, and the spiritual is made complete by what we do physically:
James 2:22 22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

This is why Romans 10 says belief in the heart and confession with the mouth go together.

According to James 2:20, a person who has faith without deeds, is a foolish (or weak) person, because they are puffed up with knowledge and self-conceit, that they are truly saved, yet do not bear the proper fruits to show it. They live in an illusion and fantasy world, because they have convinced themselves they are saved, despite the (lack of) evidence. And worse, pastors and priests console and convince such people, that they are indeed saved, and so only reinforce their illusions. Every Sunday I went to a church in which people were told they were saved because they were water baptized and went to church. Yet few could say that Jesus is their Lord and Savior. Some, were in fornication and adulterous relationships, yet convinced they were saved and nothing was wrong. This is a common situation in many churches.

Such people include those refusing water baptism, and those who cannot confess Jesus is Lord (baptism is also a kind of confession that we belong to Christ). And people in this category should be worried and doubt that they are saved, and then do something about it.

 

[Barny]

You believe a Christian cannot sin.

God tells us that Christians cannot sin, 1John 3:9, 1Pet 4:1, 1Pet 4:18, Gal 2:15, Rom 6:7, John 8:34-36, Rom 6:2

I would be careful saying someone else is giving erroneous teaching in case you bring judgement upon yourself for your own errors.

All of us have to be very careful about what we preach to others.

But of special note is the error teaching example given in James 3:6-11.
This example is very similar to the lukewarm doctrine you preach. You mix works of the law with grace.
But scripture asks, Does a spring send forth fresh water (love/grace) and bitter(judgement/condemnation under the law) from the same opening? James 3:11

Likewise Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

 

[james1523]

God tells us that Christians cannot sin, 1 John 3:9, Pet 4:1, 1 Pet 4:18; al 2:15, Rom 6:7, John 8:34-36, Rom 6:2

There is a difference between does not and cannot. Romans 6:1-2 proves that Christians can sin, and that dying to sin does not mean "cannot sin".

All of us have to be very careful about what we preach to others.

But of special note is the error teaching example given in James 3:6-11.
This example is very similar to the lukewarm doctrine you preach. You mix works of the law with grace.
But scripture asks, Does a spring send forth fresh water (love/grace) and bitter(judgement/condemnation under the law) from the same opening? James 3:11

Likewise Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

I'm not really mixing law with grace. I believe grace, through faith, leads to obedience to the law, which is still by, through and under God's grace. Obedience to the law is still under grace, because it is only because of God's grace that we are able to obey Him.

 

[Barny]

There is a difference between does not and cannot. Romans 6:1-2 proves that Christians can sin, and that dying to sin does not mean "cannot sin".

1John 3:6-9
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Confirmed also by 1Pet 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin

Confirmed also by Rom 6:1,2
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

A Christian's life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3.
And in Christ there is no sin, 1John 3:5
Our faith is now counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
Christians are holy because of Christ, Rom 11:16, Heb 10:10
Christians have been perfected because of Christ, Heb 10:14.
Christians are complete in Christ, Col 2:10.

As Rom 6:2 says, Christians are "dead to sin", so "How" can we live in it any longer?
In other words,the physical part of us is already dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10.
We are now new creations in Christ, 2Cor 5:17
A Christian's righteousness cannot be determined by whether or not they perfectly obey the law of righteousness, in this physical life.
As our faith is counted for righteousness then that means that our righteousness is not judged by whether we obey the law perfectly in this physical life.
With Christ as our covering, HOW can we live in sin any longer? That flawed physical part of us is already dead (by faith), and we're new creations now (righteous, holy, perfected).

Can we be charged with the sin of transgression of the law (1John 3:4.) ?
Answer: No, as Christ did this for us. Christ is the END of the law for righteousness, to everyone who believes, Rom 10:4

Can we be charged with the sin of unrighteousness, (1John 5:17.) ?
Answer: No, as our faith in Christ is counted for righteousness.

When we receive Christ there is no sin that can be charged against us, which is confirmed by many scriptures, such as Rom 6:2.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

I'm not really mixing law with grace. I believe grace, through faith, leads to obedience to the law, which is still by, through and under God's grace. Obedience to the law is still under grace, because it is only because of God's grace that we are able to obey Him.

You said in an earlier post, we cannot enter into eternal life unless we have perfect obedience to the law.
This is clearly mixing works of the law with grace.
Just like under the law of sin and death, you continue to judge righteousness by works of the law.
This is in spite of scriptures stating that we cannot mix these 2.

Hence we see in Heb 10:26
For if we sin wilfully (Gal 2:18.) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth (of the gospel of Christ), there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

To sin wilfully means that one brings themselves under the law. And we know that whatever the law says it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.
To be under the law means that such a person can then be charged with sin/transgression of the law, 1John 3:4
This is confirmed in Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor.SINNER
This is the wilfull sin referred to in Heb 10:26.
It's turning back to the law for righteousness and thereby wilfully rejecting Christ's sacrifice and all that it offers us.
This verse in Hebrews speaking of those who knew the knowledge of the truth of Christ, yet sin wilfully, are described in more detail in Heb 6:4,5
who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,


For many legalists, I suspect many never knew Christ anyway. Hence they have opportunity to repent of their dead works/sin and receive Christ.

 

[james1523]

The question posed by Paul in Romans 6:1 - shall we continue to sin ? Proves that Christians can still sin.

You said in an earlier post, we cannot enter into eternal life unless we have perfect obedience to the law.
This is clearly mixing works of the law with grace.
Just like under the law of sin and death, you continue to judge righteousness by works of the law.
This is in spite of scriptures stating that we cannot mix these 2.

You are mistaken. I believe we obtain perfect obedience to the law because of Christ who kept the law perfectly. This is not mixing law with grace, this is perfect obedience to the law because of and as a result of grace.

 

[Barny]

The question posed by Paul in Romans 6:1 - shall we continue to sin ? Proves that Christians can still sin.

Yet the very next verse answers the question in Rom 6:1. Christians are dead to sin so HOW can they live in it any longer? They can't, as confirmed by 1John 3:9. And 1Pet 4:1.

I believe we obtain perfect obedience to the law because of Christ who kept the law perfectly. This is not mixing law with grace, this is perfect obedience to the law because of and as a result of grace.

What I understand you're saying here is that we're saved by grace and not by works of there law, BUT, without works of the law we're condemned/lost. This is a contradiction. Scripture also describes it as a contradiction, Rom 11:6.

Does a fountain bring forth both fresh water (love\grace) and bitter (judgement/condemnation under the law) from the same opening? James 3:11.

The doctrine you follow is a lukewarm mix of works of the law with grace.

 

[TC4JC]

Read Romans 7:13-25. The day I was saved my sin nature died. God no longer will declare me a sinner. However, indwelling sin didn't die that day. Until I am completely sanctified, I will still ask The Lord to forgive me of my trespasses, as I forgive others trespasses.

 

[Jehonadab]

The question posed by Paul in Romans 6:1 - shall we continue to sin ? Proves that Christians can still sin.

You are mistaken. I believe we obtain perfect obedience to the law because of Christ who kept the law perfectly. This is not mixing law with grace, this is perfect obedience to the law because of and as a result of grace.

The holy spirit has for the last hour been chastising me on that point. I used to say that being under grace took us totally out from under that Old Law and did not fully understand what I was saying, though I thought I did.

There are some huge differences and there is much that is the same whether under grace or under that Old Law.

That we are yet under obligation to the ten commandments ought to be clear from Romans 13:8-10. They are obviously yet binding but by spirit rather than letter, so that by love we do these things naturally from our hearts rather than having to have compulsory external commands of a written code. That is only logical, for if love fulfills those things then love works those things.

That then leaves us to figure out what Paul meant, Romans 4:6 "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works.."

We learn a lot just by seeing how observing the Sabbath gets done differently when we look at Christ Jesus as our model of God's righteousness as opposed to the way the fleshly Jews under the Old Law came to observe it in their own righteousness built up in their book of traditions as though God's Law.

Matthew 12:1-2 "At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day."

Thus we see that the Pharisees by their traditions would use God's Laws in a way that violated God's love and yet imagine that their works earned them a place with God. They would refuse food to those in need of it. But they went much further.

Matthew 12:10-12 "And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days."

And their book of traditions caused the violation of God's love by means the flesh's use of His Laws in many other ways, like locking the gates of the city and barring anyone in or out once the Sabbath began. And dictating how far one could travel on the Sabbath day (called a Sabbath day's journey) before it was considered a forbidden work, all of these things without any concern for special needs.

Bearing that in mind, let's look at some other words of Paul: Colossians 2:16-17 "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

I have in the past interpreted that to mean that we are under no obligation to observe the Sabbath. I repent that, for that is not what Paul said. Paul merely said not to let anyone judge you down for how you do it like those Pharisees were doing Jesus and the disciples based on their own righteousness from their book of traditions.

It is true that those things were shadows of greater things which we also need to come to understand as understanding them will shape how we observe them. But paul is not advocating a license for anyone to call anyone else on the carpet for how they choose to observe such things.

Acts 17:2 "And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures.."

Acts 18:4 "And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks."

The Pharisees would have been put at ease by Paul's appearance to be observing the Sabbath in the same old manner as they. That is part of how it is, 1 Corinthians 9:20 "And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law.."

There really does need to be an open line of discussion concerning these things for they are at the root of much confusion as to works and more.

 

[RJ]

You are mistaken. I believe we obtain perfect obedience to the law because of Christ who kept the law perfectly. This is not mixing law with grace, this is perfect obedience to the law because of and as a result of grace.[/QUOTE]
James you have agreed that you personally can not keep perfect obedience to the law. We all know about Christ and it is not about him, it is about you. Grace is a gift from God; your saying that his gift to us is the ability to keep the law with perfect obedience....where is that written? Yes you are mixing together law and grace and what God separated and called the law obsolete.
You might as well say we are saved under the Old Covenant and the New Covenant together...now that is unbiblical and false teaching!

 

[james1523]

James you have agreed that you personally can not keep perfect obedience to the law. We all know about Christ and it is not about him, it is about you. Grace is a gift from God; your saying that his gift to us is the ability to keep the law with perfect obedience....where is that written? Yes you are mixing together law and grace and what God separated and called the law obsolete.
You might as well say we are saved under the Old Covenant and the New Covenant together...now that is unbiblical and false teaching!

The ability to keep the law is not God's gift, it is a result of the cross, the death to self and rising to new life (which you cannot experience unless you have been water baptized), and the indwelling power of the Spirit which all result from God's grace which is a gift.
What is obsolete is the written law of Moses, not God's moral law.
You are saying that despite Christ dying for our sins, despite the problem of our flesh being dealt with, and despite us having received the Spirit and being under His grace, we cannot keep His commands, which 1 John 5:3 says are not burdensome for us.
If you say you cannot keep God's law, you are saying you are still in your sins, because a person in their sins is powerless to keep the law. But a Christian is able to keep God's law and with a righteousness that exceeds the Pharisees.
As Scripture plainly shows there are many Old Testament saints, Noah, Job, even the parents of John the Baptist, who kept God's commands perfectly and were blameless. And they did it without the cross and without the indwelling power of the Spirit. As Paul writes, previously we were sinners by nature, but now we are keepers of God's commands by nature.

 

[james1523]

What I understand you're saying here is that we're saved by grace and not by works of there law, BUT, without works of the law we're condemned/lost. This is a contradiction. Scripture also describes it as a contradiction, Rom 11:6.

It is not a contradiction it is the belief held by Martin Luther and the Reformers, that faith and works cannot be separated, just as heat and fire cannot be separated. Heat is a result of fire, works is a result of faith.
We are saved by faith alone (not works) but saving faith is not alone (without works).
You are teaching salvation by faith alone without works, which is incorrect. You are teaching a doctrine of dead faith.
As James says, you show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.