first 3 verses of Revelation

[james1523]

Verse 1: "The revelation of Jesus Christ"

Revelation does not need to be the "elephant in the room", of confusion and ignorance. I mean, the important book of the bible that everyone tends to ignore because it is too difficult to understand.

There are some keys to unlocking Revelation that make it easier to understand:
1) It is about Jesus Christ
2) Much of its content is not exactly new, but already revealed in other prophetic books, such as Daniel, and the New Testament.
3) It's a prophetic book, and highly symbolic, so we must not take it too literally.

The Book of Revelation is not merely about revealing end times events, it is about revealing Jesus Christ.

In fact, the whole Bible is about revealing Jesus Christ, starting with Genesis, which mentions Eve coming out of the side of Adam, representing the Church coming out of the side of Christ and the seed of the woman, Christ, coming to crush the serpent's head.

The Book of Revelation is the Book which completes the whole Bible, which completes the revelation of Jesus Christ that started in Genesis and continued throughout the old and new testaments.

If we don't read and understand Revelation, we won't see where we're headed. And if we don't know where we're headed, we can't really understand why we're on this Earth, for what purpose. We won't see who Christ is, not the little baby in the manger, but the overcoming King of Kings and Lord of Lords, coming to take back the Earth and overthrow all the human governments (yes including the U.S. of A, sorry patriots). We won't see who we are , destined to be the Bride of Christ, that means His equal, not His slave or servant, and we won't have the proper idea of where we go when we die, not just Heaven, not a fluffy cloud, but a New Jerusalem, which is our mother.

What are some of the things it reveals about Christ?
Christ is our High Priest, the church as His Bride, Christ as the Lion and the Lamb, the future destiny of all overcoming Christians which is the New Jerusalem. It shows how Christ cares for His church and how He is coming to judge and possess the earth.

Now consider the intended audience:
Rev 1:4 "John, To the seven churches in the province of Asia: Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,"

The Book of Revelation is intended to the seven churches. But it is a prophetic book, and being prophetic, is highly symbolic. Of course there were more than just seven churches in Asia at the time (the number 7 itself is symbolic) and so this Book was not meant only for these specific 7 churches, but for everyone.

As I grew up in many different churches, I always wondered why we never really studied Revelation, it was neither preached on or encouraged. Now I think I know why, the Book itself is against the whole concept of denominational-ism, and it is so blatantly obvious when you see it. This was an eye opener for me: "Churches" in this context refers to the community or local congregations of Christians living in each city, and not merely to the building or buildings in which they gathered for worship. In God's eyes there is only one church in each city. The 7 churches directly correspond to the 7 cities. We can note that Revelation is not written to denominations and sects, not because they did not exist at the time (and I'm fairly sure they did), but because they are not considered by Christ to be "church".

This means that when Jesus looks at your city (or town/village) where you live, He will judge the state of your church, by the state of every believer in your city.
It doesn't matter if you have the best home group, bible study group, or Sunday gathering on the street corner. If 90% of the believers in your city are lukewarm, then He may say your church is lukewarm. Your church may be the denomination on the street corner, but His church is every single believer in your city. So what are these churches about, Wikipedia gives a nice summary:

1. Ephesus (Revelation 2:1-7) - the church that had forsaken its first love (2:4).
2. Smyrna (Revelation 2:8-11) - the church that would suffer persecution (2:10).
3. Pergamum (Revelation 2:12-17) - the church that needed to repent (2:16).
4. Thyatira (Revelation 2:18-29) - the church that had a false prophetess (2:20).
5. Sardis (Revelation 3:1-6) - the church that had fallen asleep (3:2).
6. Philadelphia (Revelation 3:7-13) - the church that had endured patiently (3:10).
7. Laodicea (Revelation 3:14-22) - the church that was lukewarm and insipid (to God) (3:16).

I believe each church mentioned in Revelation is symbolic of the state of Christianity in each age. For example, Ephesus indicates the early stages of Christianity, when the church lost its first love when it became the state religion of the Roman Empire, and lost hold of Christ, pursuing political power, wealth and riches, and conquering nations. Then in the next stage, Smyrna, the (true) church suffered persecution, not only from pagans and muslims, but also from violent Christian religionists. Today I believe we are in the age of the church that falls asleep, Sardis. When I look around I see everyone sleeping. Church attendance is only 10%, Christians are generally unenthusiastic about Gospel preaching, we are in the age of the information and technology, everyone is lazy and sleepy because we have made all these tools to make life easier and convenient. We are too busy and distracted. There are 100 different styles of church services to go, one catering to every need, so we are basically complacent, comfortable and lazy. So it indicates that we are close to the Lord's return - in the next stage, the Philadelphian church, there will be trial on the whole earth (Rev 3:10), that is, the tribulation period, which clearly points to the near future. So we can use these 7 churches as a "prophetic roadmap". Why seven? The number 7 indicates perfection. So at the end of the 7 stages of Christianity, the church will have reached the stage of perfection, and be a Bride of Christ without spot or wrinkle. Then we have the wedding supper of the Lamb (Rev 19:9), and the New Jerusalem - basically Christ "marries" His bride, the church, and they live together in marital bliss for all eternity. (Rev 21:3, 21:9-12). This is the destiny God has for all mankind - to "marry" Christ, and dwell together for eternity (Rev 21:3). This is why human beings, out of all creation, are special, and God's particular focus of love and attention. In the whole Bible God never said that He loves any angel, or any animal. But He loves us.

 

[xDICEx]

Well, thanks, James. But what do u think of the exegesis of the 3 verses? Compelling, trite, useless, relevant/irrelevant, what? Do you believe these verses indicate that the Book ought to be read like this, and that the Holy Spirit will work in the assemblies a special blessing? Moreover, that the blessing is in keeping with a gift the Father richly bestowed upon His only begotten Son, who yes is the ultimate subject of the whole Bible and this book as well...valid point or no, not sure, what? And, would you try a reading like this, and post the results here?

 

[james1523]

Well, thanks, James. But what do u think of the exegesis of the 3 verses? Compelling, trite, useless, relevant/irrelevant, what? Do you believe these verses indicate that the Book ought to be read like this, and that the Holy Spirit will work in the assemblies a special blessing? Moreover, that the blessing is in keeping with a gift the Father richly bestowed upon His only begotten Son, who yes is the ultimate subject of the whole Bible and this book as well...valid point or no, not sure, what? And, would you try a reading like this, and post the results here?

I enjoyed the exegesis of the 3 verses. When a prophet speaks for God it is as if God is speaking. If Revelation is read to the congregation, it is as if God is speaking through the apostle John who is speaking through the speaker. I believe the Book ought to be read as you suggest. Not just because the 3 verses indicate that, but because it is a prophecy, and all prophecy is meant for the edification of the church, not for private use or private edification. And how can prophecy edify the church, if it is not read aloud in and to the church congregation? : 1 Cor 14:4 "He that speaketh in a tongue, edifieth himself: but he that prophesieth, edifieth the church. ". So I believe the proper use of it would be to speak the prophecy to the church, and then allow the congregation to prophesy and testify of what they enjoyed, what edified them, and what the Spirit revealed to them about Christ. The purpose of Revelation is to reveal Christ, so whatever edified a person must be related in some way to Jesus Christ. Such encouragement in Christ is a great blessing. The Spirit of prophecy bears testimony to Jesus: Rev 19:10 "For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus."" And everyone participating in this way, would be in keeping with 1 Cor 14:5 where the apostle desires all to prophesy.

 

[NoHype]

I have heard some sermons just stressing the reading part. I definitely believe our Lord's Revelation was meant for us to understand, especially in these last days prior to His return. It is a very literal Book to me too, which I say that while understanding how It is given with some allegory and symbolism that God's Word as a whole will interpret for us.

 

[Trax]

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Knowing who these servants are, is the key to knowing what is shortly going to come to pass. All the things shown, are for these
servants to see. If that piece of the puzzle in interpreted incorrectly, everything else comes out incorrect.

1, If they were early believers, people may, and do, interpret most have already happened
2. Latter day believers, then it gets a Gentile twist on interpretation
3. If they are Jews, then it needs to be seen from a Jewish perspective.

So many choices, of such a very important item, left up to the human mind?
It would help a lot if God had spelled out just who these servants are.
Maybe He did. Rev 7, 144000 servants. For me, I'm going with what that.

 

[NoHype]

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Knowing who these servants are, is the key to knowing what is shortly going to come to pass. All the things shown, are for these
servants to see. If that piece of the puzzle in interpreted incorrectly, everything else comes out incorrect.

1, If they were early believers, people may, and do, interpret most have already happened
2. Latter day believers, then it gets a Gentile twist on interpretation
3. If they are Jews, then it needs to be seen from a Jewish perspective.

So many choices, of such a very important item, left up to the human mind?
It would help a lot if God had spelled out just who these servants are.
Maybe He did. Rev 7, 144000 servants. For me, I'm going with what that.

That's actually easy to know per the Revelation Scripture. Christ told John to send His Revelation to the 7 Churches in Asia (Asia Minor). That's means to His Church. The very last Rev.22 chapter reinforces that idea again, directly by Christ.


Rev 22:16-19
16 I Jesus have sent Mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
(KJV)

Those who try to limit who Christ gave His Revelation to might be guilty of His warnings above. He gave it to His Church of all later eras too, beginning with the Churches in Asia Minor during John's days.

 

[Trax]

That's actually easy to know per the Revelation Scripture. Christ told John to send His Revelation to the 7 Churches in Asia (Asia Minor). That's means to His Church. The very last Rev.22 chapter reinforces that idea again, directly by Christ.

Are you saying all the visions John saw has already happened? Because if the servants are the 7 churches,, then
its already happened, since it is stated it would happen quickly. The 144000 are labeled as servants in Chptr 7.
What I got from the Holy Ghost is the servants in Rev 1:1 are the 144000 and other Jews.

 

[Brighthouse]

I always get concerned, not worried mind you!! lol When people look at Revelation as just signs and symbols rather then its central theme, at least to me.( rev 1:19)The outline of this book. Of the 66 books in the bible, many take this book,and perhaps set it apart from the rest of them,when really Revelations to me brings all of the other books together,across the finish line of each of our lives.Of course there is much debate as to who the woman represents,and other things written,no doubt about this!But to me brothers and sisters the central theme of revelation is in the accomplishment of each of our faith,the ability through our Jesus all along to overcome!

Revelations to me is the last book,and final waring to do just that! I offer many scriptures for you to bear witness to in this.( rev 2:7! Right from the get go! verse 11,verse 17,then in the next chapter,yet again!! rev 2:11,verse 17,verse 26,if this was not enough to get started with,yes again in chapter 3!! Rev 3:5,verse 12,verse 21! And just in case one wanders away from this because of all of the other goodies in revelation,yet again in rev 21:7! So what does revelation teach us believers? What Jesus himself taught us all along!! ( Phil 4:4-9!!)

Verse 9 These things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me,practice these things,and the God of peace will be with you!! It is not a book to have fear of,nor be uneasy of! It is to me the final resting place of each of our faith in our Most High God! When you take a long trip,the journey can be long and hard,many obstacles can be in our way along this narrow road,you adapt,you overcome,because you know, that when you reach your final destination,great joy will be your reward! And just as you have believed,through all the various trials we indeed do endure( 1 Peter 1:6-9) when you arrive to arms held out for you in great joy,and are welcomed so strongly,by a God who has always wished for us to understand his true love,we finally get it!

As we in Christ cross the finish line to life,our mind goes back one last time,when Jesus first became Lord of our life,the pain we suffered in our mind from others,the jokes made about us,the fingers pointing,and Holy Spirit saying to us well done!!! For now you understand what being found is,even as you so understood what being lost is! For you were once dead, and became alive through my Word,( luke15:32) and by my most wonderful name!( phil 2:9-11),you have learned that to overcome, one must be willing to in his or her mind,( col 3:2)you have trusted my word, when others said forget it!

You have endured, when all said you will fail!( heb 10:36) You have finished the race my BELOVED!! ( 1 john 4:18-27!!!) You are with me now, because you have become a doer of my word,and not a hearer only!!( james 1:22) Enter into your rest,because you were already willing and able through my power and Spirit,to enter into mine!( hebrews 4:11) You loved me,as I have love you,you overcame,you conquered( rom 8:37-39),you become complete and established both through my Word,and in MY NAME!( psalm 138:2) And you gave this to one another hence why you now see me!( 1 john 4:11-21!!)

Revelation is the reveling of our complete Jesus,and through him we have no fear or worry or anxiousness!( matt 6:25-34!!) We good brothers and sister have made it HOME!! Where in spirit we have been seated all along!!( eph 1:11-17!!) A most wonderful Jesus,saved us, by his most wonderful grace!( eph 2:4-10!!) And finally his finished product has arrived he has waited so long for!!( phil 1:6) And we to! ( psalm 27:13!!)Indeed the goodness of God goes from believing to indeed receiving!!Thank YOU JESUS!!!! ( 1 thess 5:18!!)

For in all these things you have done,we have believed,we have become faithful because Jesus is always faithful! You never left me,when my feeling and emotions did! You taught me, and loved all this time!Even when I failed many times,even as the disciples did!( matt 26:56) I learned through you Jesus how we are able to place another above ourselves!( rom 12:3) You taught me to daily examine my own life and measure it by your word, not others!( 2 cor 13:5) Through you Jesus i have been made complete!! I take no credit,I know I could have never done this on my own!

I am thankful and stay thankful, because your love indeed cannot fail!!( 1 cor 13:4-8!!) I am thankful to my brothers and sister here on talkJesus, to Chad, our blessed founder,to all the Mods who work so very hard,and to you all! Because FREEDOM is not just a Word to us!!Freedom is an action!( john 8:36) Freedom is the ability to judge but never doing it,Freedom is grace when all others look to stone you!( john 8:1-11) Freedom is overcoming when all but Jesus say it is impossible!( luke 1:37) Freedom is having eternal life, when we did nothing to earn it! Stay free,keep believing,share God's Love with another! Blessing all!

 

[NoHype]

Are you saying all the visions John saw has already happened? Because if the servants are the 7 churches,, then
its already happened, since it is stated it would happen quickly.

How can I reply to a statement such as that brethren? Who would want Christ's servants today to think that all the events of Revelation were already fulfilled, so as to not be able to remain sober and watching like Christ commanded us?!?

 

[Trax]

How can I reply to a statement such as that brethren? Who would want Christ's servants today to think that all the events of Revelation were already fulfilled, so as to not be able to remain sober and watching like Christ commanded us?!?

Read my posts concerning the 3 view points I provided, explaining the various viewpoints people
have taken with the book of Rev, based on their opinion of who the servants are. If the 7 churches are
the "servants" and those guys been long dead now, then the events have already happened.
That viewpoint is widely held. There is a reason those 7 churches were singled out, since there were
many churches during that time. (They are all in Turkey. Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest,
even where Satan's seat is:...........Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet
were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and
great authority.) Hmmmm.... By sending the letters to those 7 churches may be of prophetic nature.

In Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Those servants are going to go through it. The 144000 and some, are going through it. The very worst time
in human history, the very worst of satanic deception in human history, and they got to go through it.
Rev 1:1 tells them, "here is what you are going to face, before it quickly happens.
The church isn't going to be here, but they will be. What John saw has to be seen and
interpreted from the perspective of the 144000.

I will let you in on a little secret, concerning Bible prophecy. The human being lacks
the ability to figure it out, but they do try. The human being can look back in time and tell
what has happened, but they can't take existing information and accurately state what
will happen in 5 minutes. This the reason for the many points of view, concerning
prophetic events. People are giving their best educated guess. When that reality
dawns, then the person starts to rely on the Holy Spirit and He explains and clears it up.
Not pointing my finger at you here, just explaining what the greater majority does.
I did it for 25 years and for 25 years I couldn't nail it down. The night I gave up
and admitted my brain lacked the ability and that I was just too stupid, within 5 minutes,
the Holy Spirit explained some stuff to me.

Take care

 

[NoHype]

Read my posts concerning the 3 view points I provided, explaining the various viewpoints people
have taken with the book of Rev, based on their opinion of who the servants are. If the 7 churches are
the "servants" and those guys been long dead now, then the events have already happened.
That viewpoint is widely held. There is a reason those 7 churches were singled out, since there were
many churches during that time. (They are all in Turkey. Rev 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest,
even where Satan's seat is:...........Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet
were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and
great authority.) Hmmmm.... By sending the letters to those 7 churches may be of prophetic nature.

In Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass;
and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Those servants are going to go through it. The 144000 and some, are going through it. The very worst time
in human history, the very worst of satanic deception in human history, and they got to go through it.
Rev 1:1 tells them, "here is what you are going to face, before it quickly happens.
The church isn't going to be here, but they will be. What John saw has to be seen and
interpreted from the perspective of the 144000.

I will let you in on a little secret, concerning Bible prophecy. The human being lacks
the ability to figure it out, but they do try. The human being can look back in time and tell
what has happened, but they can't take existing information and accurately state what
will happen in 5 minutes. This the reason for the many points of view, concerning
prophetic events. People are giving their best educated guess. When that reality
dawns, then the person starts to rely on the Holy Spirit and He explains and clears it up.
Not pointing my finger at you here, just explaining what the greater majority does.
I did it for 25 years and for 25 years I couldn't nail it down. The night I gave up
and admitted my brain lacked the ability and that I was just too stupid, within 5 minutes,
the Holy Spirit explained some stuff to me.

Take care

That hype doesn't even deserve an answer, because even a little child that can read is able to tell that The Lord's Book of Revelation has much prophecy still not fulfilled today, and even for after... Christ's second coming in our near future.

 

[Trax]

That's actually easy to know per the Revelation Scripture. Christ told John to send His Revelation to the 7 Churches in Asia (Asia Minor). That's means to His Church. The very last Rev.22 chapter reinforces that idea again, directly by Christ.

Galatians 4:6-7 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
(7) Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.


Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must
shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

The key to knowing the book of Revelation is knowing who the servants are in Rev 1:1. Gal 4:6-7 says
the saved are no longer servants but sons. The word in Gal 4:7 is "doulos". The word in Rev 1:1
is also "doulos". In Gal and Rev, the same word is used and scripture can not contradict.
Yes, Rev 1:11 states for John to write down what he sees and send it to the seven churches,
but that jumps into another issue. What you have is this: Its written so the doulos (servants) will know, record
it and send it to the 7 ekklesia (churches). Different words are used in the English and in the Greek.
The servants in Rev 1:1 can not be the church, because that would conflict Gal 4:6-7.
The place where people begin to interpret Revelation incorrectly is at the very first verse Rev 1:1,
when they don't correctly identify who the servants are.


Revelation 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed
the servants (doulos) of our God in their foreheads.

In Rev 7:3, God Himself, identifies a group of people as "servants" and the word "doulos"
is used, as in Rev 1:1. But the saved, born again, in Rev, they are called "churches"
or ekklesia.

The reason for the command to send it to 7 specific churches in Turkey
could be for this reason:

Revelation 2:12-13 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which
hath the sharp sword with two edges; (13) I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even
where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those
days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

The word "seat" in Rev 2:13 is thronos, that is a seat of power, or throne. What you have is
God commanding this revelation to be recorded and taken directly to satan's throne
and to read it, And read it over and over and over again. In fact, we get blessed if we
read it and believe it. Read the letters to the 7 churches and notice terms like
synagogue of satan. Of all the churches the book could have been commanded to
be sent to, God goes directly at the enemy satan.

 

[NoHype]

The reason for the command to send it to 7 specific churches in Turkey
could be for this reason:

Revelation 2:12-13 And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which
hath the sharp sword with two edges; (13) I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even
where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those
days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

The word "seat" in Rev 2:13 is thronos, that is a seat of power, or throne. What you have is
God commanding this revelation to be recorded and taken directly to satan's throne
and to read it, And read it over and over and over again. In fact, we get blessed if we
read it and believe it. Read the letters to the 7 churches and notice terms like
synagogue of satan. Of all the churches the book could have been commanded to
be sent to, God goes directly at the enemy satan.

Not sure one can say all that area was known as Turkey back then. In Paul's days that area included Galatia of the Gauls (Celts), Greek Phrygia, Lydia, Cappadocia, etc. Pergamos was pretty close to Troy (ancient Troy, i.e, Greek Trojans).

I believe that Revelation reference is more of a spiritual reference to idolaters around Pergamos than anything else. Satan's literal 'seat' is not in some particular nation on earth.

 

[xDICEx]

public reading God blesses; have you; did He?

I have never assumed that any one other than all readers of this book are its intended recipients. From the time it was first sent from Patmos to Asia Minor, it was addressed to saints and bond servants, those alive at the time and us today and tomorrow. The Exodus events can be an example: "1Co 10:10-15: NNeither murmur ye , as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say." Also we have Paul's use of God's word to Abraham: "Rom 4:23-25: Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; Who was delivered for our offenses, and was raised again for our justification." Even the letters to each individual church ends with, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." The plural there is important. Also assuming the 144,000 to be national tribal Jews as the text says, they are saints and servants as well and will have this book available to them. Much of the above discussion is irrelevant to the original request of this post. Never the less, if you wish to debate points, I suggest you limit the range and deal point by point to resolve issues by respectfully answering cavils and clearing away ambiguities.

One interesting hermetical possibility regarding the "Satan's seat" phrase in Rev. 2:13 was a suggestion that the Babylonian mystery priesthood settled there and the Roman religious system of emperor worship was ensconced there at the time John wrote. And that, at the end of times, antichrist's kingdom will be settled there as some of the Islamic antichrist advocates are positing today. After all, it says that it is there; could it not actually mean just that? Most of the historical oppression from Roman times until the end of WW1 over the survivors in the land was culminated in the Califs operating out of this area, and Islam's moon god is no different today should a new caliphate arise in its place. I have no problem with the note being a warning from God as well as a promise of His ability to save and restrain the extent of evil, using it to accomplish His good pleasure.

Another good thing I read above was the idea that after the fact prophetic things are clear, whereas, before the fact man is limited; so that first, we need the Holy Spirit to illumine us, and secondly, we must take our speculations with a grain of salt. To that I say, amen. But I also believe as we near the very end it will be made clear; thus man's attempts are not in vane, but necessary given the aforementioned caution. After all, there will be one scenario that explains it all. God's word is not unclear.

Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

 

[NoHype]

The reality per God's Word is that Satan is not... a human being with a literal throne on earth in some nation, regardless of how evil men have operated in past history, including within Islam Caliphates and such. Anyone that can read what our Lord Jesus said to the false Jew scribes and Pharisees in John 8 with equating their father being the devil should easily understand this point.

 

[pekoe]

Re.1:1 = Re.5:7

 

[xDICEx]

The reality per God's Word is that Satan is not... a human being with a literal throne on earth in some nation, regardless of how evil men have operated in past history, including within Islam Caliphates and such.

Hello NoHype, you do realize that no one said Satan was a human being, right? With that straw-man out of the way, it is obvious that the bible says his "seat" is in Pergamos. Seat is used 14 times in the NT(KJV): Once in Mat. 23:2 as the seat of Moses implying when Scribes and Pharisees teach Bible laws; the next 10 times as judgement seats: Pilot's at Jerusalem(Mat. 27:19, John 19:13); Gallio's in Achaia(Acts 18:12,16,17); Festus's in Caesarea(Acts 25:6,17); Caesar's at Rome(Acts 25:10); and the judgement seat of Christ(Rom. 14:10, 2Cor. 5:10). The last 3 are all in Revelations: Satan's seat in Pergamos(Rev. 2:13); the Dragon giving his power, seat and great authority to the Beast(Rev. 13:2); and last, as the seat of the Beast receiving the angle vial of wrath,"and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain." So it seams obvious that "seat" in Pergamos is significant. Satan will give it to a man, his version of the christ; So the identification is a credible one, and would not be forced fulfillment if the Beast were to reign from there.

Anyone that can read what our Lord Jesus said to the false Jew scribes and Pharisees in John 8 with equating their father being the devil should easily understand this point.

This statement is true regarding Satan being a man, but then no one said that. But let me point out to you, if I were to be as unfair with your statement as you were with mine, I might argue that, "Satan is not a man, so that he could procreate children; anyone who could read what Christ said of him in Rev.2:13 should easily understand that point." That would be very unfair to you; because, I'm sure you did not mean it that way in quoting thus. Please give others the same respect.

 

[NoHype]

Junk doctrine, not Biblical. All you're trying to do is detour where both OT and NT prophecy declares the coming Antichrist/false messiah will arrive on the scene to 'play' God (2 Thess.2:4; Dan.11), and it is JERUSALEM, meaning he will be of JEWISH origin, NOT of Islamic origin.

In Matt.24:21 thru 26, Jesus declared that false one is coming to play Him, by His describing the false one with the example there of others calling that false one "Christ"...

Matt.24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

You can keep pretending you don't know that our Lord Jesus said that about that coming false one, even keep trying to point to some place in Turkey or another Islamic nation saying that's where Satan's "seat" is, but it will never... fit the actual Bible prophecy of that "pseudochristos" ("false Christs" in the Greek) which Jesus gave there.

 

[NoHype]

For brethren not aware, the Biblical prophecy of the coming 'singular' Antichrist, like God showed His prophet Daniel, and His Apostles like Apostle Paul in 2 Thess.2 and 2 Corinthians 11, and Apostle John in Revelation 9, 11, 12, 13, and 16; and as He Himself showed us in His Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, that Antichrist is coming disguised as the Messiah of OT Bible prophecy.

That is the ONLY way deceived Jews would accept him, and allow him to build their next temple in Jerusalem, and sit in it so he can proclaim himself as God, like Apostle Paul foretold and our Lord Jesus foretold, and how Daniel and Apostle John was foretold.

That is what God's Word proclaims for the end time false one that's coming to Jerusalem that will exalt himself over all that is called God, or that is worshipped, like Apostle Paul said.

These 'hirelings' that want you to think the coming false one is going to be some Islamic leader or Islamic messiah ARE propagandizing. They don't really heed God's Word as written, so they must heed something else, and that something else are doctrines fomented by the very false ones that are planning to set that coming false messiah up in Jerusalem as king, in place of our Lord Jesus Christ!