The Metaphors of Revelation 12

[tulsa 2011]

The Metaphors of Revelation 12

In Revelation 12: 14 the woman goes to the wilderness where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the dragon. She is protected from the dragon. The dragon in verse 15, called a serpent, casts out of his mouth a flood to try to cause the woman to be carried away in the flood. The flood is the false doctrines which are spoken by the mouths of the huge number of false prophets (Matthew 24: 11). But in verse 16 the flood of false doctrines is not successful in defeating the woman and her seed - because in verse 17 the remnant still has the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Which theologies would teach that the woman of Revelation 12 is physical Israel? It would be dispensatiomnalism, as well as Messianic Judaism and the Hebrew Roots movement.

The woman is a metaphor. It is not literal, not Mary or Sarah, or any other literal woman. The woman in verse 5 is said to bring forth a man child, which sounds like Christ. Yet this woman of Revelation 12 remains a metaphoric concept, not Mary or some other lady of scripture, and not physical Israel, the lost sheep to which Christ was sent (Matthew 15: 24).

The woman of Revelation 12 cannot be physical Israel because physical Israel as a house, the majority in it, rejected Christ and became anti-Christ. That remnant in Romans 11: 5 of physical Israel which accepted Christ became the beginning of Israel reborn in Christ. The woman cannot be physical Israel because in Revelation 12: 17 her spiritual seed, the remnant, has the testimony of Jesus Christ. How can the seed of physical Israel, which as a house rejected Christ, have his testimony?

It is not necessary to know what every little detail of a heavily metaphoric chapter means - and in fact every little part of the metaphoric whole may not be necessary to understanding of the whole.

The wilderness is not literal. It is metaphoric for being outside of Babylon. Revelation 18: 23 says Christ and his bride are not in Babylon. Christ is not in Babylon after the falling away from sound doctrine of II Thessalonians 2: 3-4.

When Christ was in what the Catholics and dispensationalists call the capital C Church, which is a meeting, assembly or congregation of Israel reborn in Christ, he was the source of its light to the world. It in itself was not the light to the world, but Christ in it was the light. When that light left, then the capital C Church has no light. The candle in Revelation 18: 23 no longer shines "in thee." The light has left. Another metaphor in Revelation 18: 23 says the voice of the bridegroom and the bride are heard "no more at all in thee."

Isaiah 10: 17 says "And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;" Isaiah 49: 6 says "I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth." "Thee" is physical Israel. Then Isaiah 42: 6 says " I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;"

Physical Israel, or most of the people, thought they were the light to the nations, the Gentiles. But these texts in Isaiah imply the light of physical Israel was Christ in them, not physical Israel without Christ. Christ says in John 8: 12 "I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." In Isaiah, Christ in physical Israel making them the light to the world is partly veiled. But in the New Testament Christ clearly states that he is the light. And then he gives his light to those who are transformed in him. In Matthew 5: 14 he says "Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid."

Matthew 23: 37-38 says "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate."

This is a fulfillment of the prophecy in Daniel 9: 27, "...and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." This prophecy is fulfilled also in the New Covenant timeline.

The woman in Revelation 12: 6, 14 going out into the wilderness means she as Israel reborn in Christ has left what is now Babylon - the capital C Church in false doctrines - where the light no longer shines and the voice of Christ and his elect are no longer heard, but the voice of another Jesus is heard and another Gospel is preached. Out in the wilderness, out of Babylon as Revelation 18: 4 commands, the seed of the woman, the remnant, has the testimony of Jesus Christ in Revelation 12: 17, which is the light.

Also, it is confusing to equate the church with the Israel of God. It is confusing in one way because dispensationalism has made the church something equal to Israel. The church is not something which gives the elect its identity in Christ as does the Israel of God of Galatians 6: 16, the Body of Christ, or the elect of Christ. Israel was changed, but its still Israel as something which gives us our identity in Christ.

 

[DHC]

It is not necessary to know what every little detail of a heavily metaphoric chapter means - and in fact every little part of the metaphoric whole may not be necessary to understanding of the whole.

Hello Tulsa.

Unless you have the correct interpretation, 'every little detail' will not find a place in your overall picture.
I believe that the details were written for the distinct purpose to verify that you have the correct understanding.

Who rules the nations with a rod of iron?

Revelations 12
5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron;
and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

The male child will rule all the nations with a rod of iron!

Revelation 19:15
From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations,
and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce
wrath of God, the Almighty.

In the verse above Christ arrives to rule with a rod of iron.

Psalms 2
7 I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord: He said to Me, You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware

An Old Testament reference to the Christ and the rod of iron.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Revelation 12:6,13-17
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle (((Isaiah 5:24-30 Israel's women and children))), that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water(((army of 666))) as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood(((Mt of Olives will swallowed army as the Red Sea swallowed Egyptian))) which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.





Isaiah 16:1-5
1 Send ye the lamb(((Jesus))) to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion.
2 For it shall be, that, as a wandering bird cast out of the nest, so the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon.

3 Take counsel, execute judgment; make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday; hide the outcasts; bewray not him that wandereth.
4Let mine outcasts dwell with thee(((The woman from Revelation 12 is Israel))), Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceaseth, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.
5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he(((Jesus))) shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

Zechariah 14:1-5
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee (((The woman from Revelation 12 is Israel))) to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

[DHC]

And ye shall flee (((The woman from Revelation 12 is Israel))) to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Hello Eric.

You stated that 'the woman' depicted in (Revelations 12) is the nation of Israel.

The attempt to link 'the woman' to the nation of Israel disregards the Biblical covenants.

We know from the scripture that the literal descendants of Abraham cannot be the woman.
The literal descendants of Abraham rejected the Christ and crucified Him. Israel does
not shine with the Glory of Christ, Israel did persecute the followers of the Christ.

The apostle Paul identifies two very different covenants that help to explain the
fundamental difference between the church and the nation of Israel.

Galatians 4
24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding
from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar
is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery
with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

These women are in fact two covenants, one is physical and one is spiritual.
In the verses above Paul seperates the physical from the spiritual. The Jerusalem above
is our mother and this is the church, not the physical city of Jerusalem, i.e., Israel.
The second woman Paul mentions is the same woman as in (Revelations 12).

The second woman is clothed with the sun and we know Eric that the church is clothed
with the Glory of Jesus Christ. She is the New Covenant woman and the stars are the apostles.
The stars are not the twelve tribes of Israel, that interpretation is not the spiritual reading.

The moon under the woman's feet is none other than the old Mosaic covenant. Sun light is
only reflected by the moon, the old moon covenant was the fading Glory of Christ that
lit the face of Moses. The nation of Israel is not a player in the New Testament, Israel
once was and now is not.

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Hello Eric.

You stated that 'the woman' depicted in (Revelations 12) is the nation of Israel.

The attempt to link 'the woman' to the nation of Israel disregards the Biblical covenants.

We know from the scripture that the literal descendants of Abraham cannot be the woman.
The literal descendants of Abraham rejected the Christ and crucified Him. Israel does
not shine with the Glory of Christ, Israel did persecute the followers of the Christ.

The apostle Paul identifies two very different covenants that help to explain the
fundamental difference between the church and the nation of Israel.

Galatians 4
24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding
from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar
is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery
with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

These women are in fact two covenants, one is physical and one is spiritual.
In the verses above Paul seperates the physical from the spiritual. The Jerusalem above
is our mother and this is the church, not the physical city of Jerusalem, i.e., Israel.
The second woman Paul mentions is the same woman as in (Revelations 12).

The second woman is clothed with the sun and we know Eric that the church is clothed
with the Glory of Jesus Christ. She is the New Covenant woman and the stars are the apostles.
The stars are not the twelve tribes of Israel, that interpretation is not the spiritual reading.

The moon under the woman's feet is none other than the old Mosaic covenant. Sun light is
only reflected by the moon, the old moon covenant was the fading Glory of Christ that
lit the face of Moses. The nation of Israel is not a player in the New Testament, Israel
once was and now is not.

DHC'

You said "We know from the scripture that the literal descendants of Abraham cannot be the woman.
The literal descendants of Abraham rejected the Christ and crucified Him. Israel does
not shine with the Glory of Christ, Israel did persecute the followers of the Christ."

But Israel will be judge and the 1/3 of the Jews that survive will turn back to Jesus.

Zechariah 13:7-9
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

 

[tulsa 2011]

The argument over whether the woman of Revelation 12 is all physical Israel, some part of physical Israel, or the church can go on and on. Dispensationalism would say that she must be either physical Israel or the church. In dispensationalism there can be no other possibility.

Could be be that this woman is such a metaphor that she can be both the "woman" who brings forth the man child in verse 5, which is a description of Christ, and the "mother" of the remnant in verse 17 who have the testimony of Jesus Christ? This would mean that the woman is clearly not literal.

The focus on who the woman is distracts from what the other metaphors say in Revelation 12. There is knowledge in those other metaphors which is lost if they are taken to be literal and dependent on a literal type of woman.

The dragon, or Satan, goes after the woman, but she flees into the wilderness. What does the wilderness mean as a metaphor? On one level it can be seen to hark back to the Exodus from bondage in Egypt. The Israelites escaped from bondage in Egypt by going out into the wilderness where the Lord nourished them and gave them power to defeat their enemies.

Then there is John the Baptist, who did not go into the temple in Jerusalem and preach about the appearing of Jesus Christ. He was the voice crying in the wilderness (Matthew 3: 3). He was not in the cities but outside of them, sort of in the literal wilderness. But as I Corinthians 10: 11 says this is an example which happened, like the Exodus from literal captivity, for our admonition upon whom the ends of the world are come.

The wilderness then is a metaphor for the woman going outside of the city, outside of the temple, outside of the camp, and outside and away from the control of the clergy, the priests and preachers. Hebrews 13: 12-14 talks about Christ going outside the gate to sanctify his people through his suffering, and then says "let us go unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach."

Paul's discussion of the two covenants in Galatians 4: 24 says that there is one Jerusalem that is in bondage, and another Jerusalem which is above, is free and is the mother of us all, meaning this Jerusalem which is not in bondage is the mother of the elect, not that Jerusalem which is in bondage. In bondage to what? Part of the answer to that question is in Matthew 15:6, "you have made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition." And part of the answer is also that God is sovereign. "O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand,O house of Israel." (Jeremiah 18: 6)

God chose to change physical Israel and did away with the first that he might establish the second (Hebrews 10: 9). The Jerusalem in Galatians 4: 25 which is said to be in bondage, as the Israelites were in literal bondage in Egypt, is changed into that Jerusalem of Galatians 4: 26 which is above, is free and is the mother of the elect, "us all" as Paul says.

Then in Revelation 12: 15-16 there is the metaphor of the serpent casting out a flood out of his mouth after the woman. The flood coming out of his mouth is a key to this metaphor. The serpent inspires the huge number of false prophets (Matthew 24: 11. Revelation 9: 16-19) to deceive those who claim to be Christians by what they, the false prophets, speak from their mouths.

Finally in Revelation 12: 17 the dragon goes to make war with the woman and her seed the remnant who have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Dispensationalists do not like the idea of a remnant in end time prophecy. They want the multitude, or the broad way of Matthew 7: 13, not a small remnant as their church. The capital C Church goes back to the beginning of Roman Catholicism when the clergy, in order to control the doctrines and practices of the people, made use of the Church as both an institution and as a building. But II Thessalonians 2: 3-4 - supported by several texts in I Timothy and II Timothy - say there is to be a falling away from sound doctrine. But a remnant in Revelation 12: 17 is to remain who still have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The falling away from sound doctrine began in the 19th century with the rise of several cults, and gained momentum right after the end of World War II. It has been going on for a while and does not wait until after the dispensationalist church is raptured and the dispensationalist tribulation begins.

 

[DHC]

DHC'

You said "We know from the scripture that the literal descendants of Abraham cannot be the woman.
The literal descendants of Abraham rejected the Christ and crucified Him. Israel does
not shine with the Glory of Christ, Israel did persecute the followers of the Christ."

But Israel will be judge and the 1/3 of the Jews that survive will turn back to Jesus.

Zechariah 13:7-9
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

Hello Eric.

The vision given to John states that the 'woman' was in heaven Eric.

"A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun"

Israel is not in heaven, Israel is but a nation on earth.

The vision John received is not a vision of an earthly institution or country, she is in heaven.

The woman is the bride of Christ, the Church, Christ is the head of the church. We form the
body of Christ, we all are the woman seated with Christ in heaven.

Your reference to (Zechariah 13) does not in anyway provide information which would reveal
the identity of the woman?

 

[brakelite]

Hello Eric.

The vision given to John states that the 'woman' was in heaven Eric.

"A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun"

Israel is not in heaven, Israel is but a nation on earth.

The vision John received is not a vision of an earthly institution or country, she is in heaven.

The woman is the bride of Christ, the Church, Christ is the head of the church. We form the
body of Christ, we all are the woman seated with Christ in heaven.

Your reference to (Zechariah 13) does not in anyway provide information which would reveal
the identity of the woman?

Hi DHC. I agree with your perspective on Revelation 12. The woman can be none other than God's people. Not all Israel was ever necessarily God's true church, but only those with the faith of Abraham. It was they who waited in expectation (travailing in birth) of their Messiah. Clothed in God's own righteousness, and standing upon the word of God as their foundation of faith and practice. But even before Israel was ever a nation, the faithful have lived in hope of a Saviour. Eve herself thought her own son was He, and every woman since hoped she would be the one to bring forth the Messiah. All the ancient patriarchs from Adam down had this hope. They are God's church. They are His people. It is they who have been the target of the dragons animosity. It was before them that the dragon waited. He knew the prophecies. He knew that after Isaiah announced where and when the Saviour would be born, that he would need a device to oppose Him.
Thus Satan formed an empire after his own likeness, (see Daniel 7:7,8) which was on hand to be his agent in destroying the child. (see Matthew 2:16 [Herod being Rome's puppet]) and later his agent in destroying the church that brought forth the child. The woman fled into the wilderness. At first it was the nation of Israel that persecuted the woman. (Makes no sense if the woman was Israel) by stoning Steven and harrassing the church whenever and wherever God chose to raise her up. But in a short while the church by God's magificent power took over it is estimated half the empire, despite pagan Rome's attempts to wipe her out (as Satan's agent) through particularly Diocletian (ten years see Revelation 2:10) and Nero, Thus she continued to grow, from Britain to the far east, from Sacndinavia to Africa, the gospel overcame paganism wherever she went. So Satan changed tack, and through the little horn, devised a different means to overcome God's people. The beast of Daniel 7 metamorphosed into an even greater likeness to himself in the form of the papacy, (see Revelation 13:1). It was at this time and facing papal persecutions that the church fled into the wilderness for 1260 years. From the 6th century to the 18th, the church was targeted mercilessly by Rome. She however survived, but had undergone some changes. God needed to return His people to truth, so with Wycliffe in the 13th ?century began the reformation. But the dragon wasn't finished with her yet, He cast out of his mouth a flood (false doctrines and lies) after the woman, but the earth swallowed up the flood. It was around the time of the end of the 1260 years that the church was taken by God to a safe haven: America. The Puritans and Pilgrims, escaping from papal ravages and persecutions in Europe, found a place to practice their religion in peace. Away from the false doctrines, away from persecution, God's people found a place to worship according to their consciences in freedom. To a lesser degree this was also true for Australia, NZ, and South Africa. They became the earth which swallowed up the flood of papal lies.
The dragon yet is still not finished. He hasn't yet given up his quest to destroy God's people. Angry that his previous attempts have been constantly thwarted by God, he is soon to make war with what remains of the true church (see Revelation 16:13,14; 17:14) through more deceptions and 'miracles (see Revelation 13:13,14) after the majority rejoins their "Mother", Babylon the Great. Ecumenism is bringing back the wayward daughters of Rome. All that will remain will be a remnant of faithful commandment keeping Christians who have the testimony of Jesus, the spirit of prophecy. (see Revelation 12:17; 14:12; 19:10)

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Revelation 12:5-6
5 And she brought forth a man child (((Jesus))), who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.(((mid tribulation when 666 causes the abomination and Israel flees.)))

 

[brakelite]

Israel's Seventy weeks Daniel 9:24

Revelation 12:5-6
5 And she brought forth a man child (((Jesus))), who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.(((mid tribulation when 666 causes the abomination and Israel flees.)))

Hi Eric. A seven year tribulation period is unfounded, apart from a mis-application of the last week of Daniel 9:24. Why mis-application? Because the seventy weeks is a Messianic prophecy (not end time) , and prophetic time period; prophetic time periods are symbolic, and must be converted to real time. This is done by converting the period to days, which are then applied as years.This day/yearprophetic principle is to be found confirmed in Ezekiel 4:6 and Numbers 14:34. 70 weeks is 490 days, which in the final analysis become years. This is clearly proven by the historical fulfilment of the Messiah's coming and the restoration of the city according to the Biblical record. This is one of the most amazing prophecies in the Bible. 3 grand divisions, each one with a specific event marking its beginning, and its termination, with one of the divisions also being divided with another specific event marking its mid-point. If dates can be found to harmonize with the prophetic events, the most profound and wonderful proof of the Messianic mission and identity of Jesus Christ is then presented to confound any skeptic. Of all the prophecies in the scriptural record, this is one that should never be misunderstood, misapplied, or misused.
"Know therefore, and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem......
There were 3 decrees granted to the exiles to return and rebuild what had been destroyed by Babylonian conquest. The first was from

• Cyrus for the rebuilding of the temple in 536BC. (Ezra 1:1-4) The second from
• Darius for the completion of that work which had been hindered by opposition in 519BC (Ezra 6:1-12) and the third from
• Artaxerxes to Ezra in 457BC (Ezra 7:7) to not only finish the work of the temple, but to re-establish civil rule by the appointment of magistrates and judges.

These 3 decrees constituted one commandment, to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. (Ezra 6:14) The start date therefore is that given by Artaxerxes which completed the commandment to rebuild the temple, the city, and establish once again independent rule for the Jewish exiles, being 457 BC
.....unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks....
Here is the first major division. Seven weeks is 49 days which becomes 49 years. Commenced by Ezra in the 7th year of Artaxerxes it was completed exactly 49 years later in 408BC.
.....and threescore and two weeks....
62 weeks, or 483 days/years. This will complete the time given to the arrival of the Messiah. Here is the second main division . This begins at 408BC, and takes us to of 27AD. Is 27AD in harmony with the prophecy, "unto Messiah the prince"? First, what is the meaning of 'Messiah'? The word "Messiah" means "anointed" , see John 1:41 margin. What took place in 27AD?
Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Compare the above with Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

His anointing took place in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, which was 27AD.

Which brings us to the final week, the 7 year period which is today embroiled in controversy and debate, the final division which itself is divided into two distinct halves. It is during this final 7 year period that Daniel 9:24 finds its fulfillment.
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.....And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:....And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Then Jesus began to preach that "the time is fulfilled" (referring to the 483 years which were to reach to the Messiah). He thus audibly confirmed the prophecy (Mark 1:14, 15Galatians 4:4). So Jesus actually began His ministry by clearly referring to the 70 week prophecy, stressing its importance and accuracy. This is awesome and thrilling evidence that proves the inspiration of scripture. With the admins' permission, I refer you to an interesting and detailed explanation of the above prophecy in pdf format that perhaps you would find beneficial. http://www.historicism.com/Haynes/seventyweeks.pdf

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Hi Eric. A seven year tribulation period is unfounded, apart from a mis-application of the last week of Daniel 9:24. Why mis-application? Because the seventy weeks is a Messianic prophecy (not end time) , and prophetic time period; prophetic time periods are symbolic, and must be converted to real time. This is done by converting the period to days, which are then applied as years.This day/yearprophetic principle is to be found confirmed in Ezekiel 4:6 and Numbers 14:34. 70 weeks is 490 days, which in the final analysis become years. This is clearly proven by the historical fulfilment of the Messiah's coming and the restoration of the city according to the Biblical record. This is one of the most amazing prophecies in the Bible. 3 grand divisions, each one with a specific event marking its beginning, and its termination, with one of the divisions also being divided with another specific event marking its mid-point. If dates can be found to harmonize with the prophetic events, the most profound and wonderful proof of the Messianic mission and identity of Jesus Christ is then presented to confound any skeptic. Of all the prophecies in the scriptural record, this is one that should never be misunderstood, misapplied, or misused.
"Know therefore, and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem......
There were 3 decrees granted to the exiles to return and rebuild what had been destroyed by Babylonian conquest. The first was from

• Cyrus for the rebuilding of the temple in 536BC. (Ezra 1:1-4) The second from
• Darius for the completion of that work which had been hindered by opposition in 519BC (Ezra 6:1-12) and the third from
• Artaxerxes to Ezra in 457BC (Ezra 7:7) to not only finish the work of the temple, but to re-establish civil rule by the appointment of magistrates and judges.

These 3 decrees constituted one commandment, to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. (Ezra 6:14) The start date therefore is that given by Artaxerxes which completed the commandment to rebuild the temple, the city, and establish once again independent rule for the Jewish exiles, being 457 BC
.....unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks....
Here is the first major division. Seven weeks is 49 days which becomes 49 years. Commenced by Ezra in the 7th year of Artaxerxes it was completed exactly 49 years later in 408BC.
.....and threescore and two weeks....
62 weeks, or 483 days/years. This will complete the time given to the arrival of the Messiah. Here is the second main division . This begins at 408BC, and takes us to of 27AD. Is 27AD in harmony with the prophecy, "unto Messiah the prince"? First, what is the meaning of 'Messiah'? The word "Messiah" means "anointed" , see John 1:41 margin. What took place in 27AD?
Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

Compare the above with Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

His anointing took place in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, which was 27AD.

Which brings us to the final week, the 7 year period which is today embroiled in controversy and debate, the final division which itself is divided into two distinct halves. It is during this final 7 year period that Daniel 9:24 finds its fulfillment.
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.....And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:....And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Then Jesus began to preach that "the time is fulfilled" (referring to the 483 years which were to reach to the Messiah). He thus audibly confirmed the prophecy (Mark 1:14, 15Galatians 4:4). So Jesus actually began His ministry by clearly referring to the 70 week prophecy, stressing its importance and accuracy. This is awesome and thrilling evidence that proves the inspiration of scripture. With the admins' permission, I refer you to an interesting and detailed explanation of the above prophecy in pdf format that perhaps you would find beneficial. http://www.historicism.com/Haynes/seventyweeks.pdf

The 69th week is complete when Jesus is cut off.
There is one more week of years which will start when the antichrist signs the covenant to divide Israel to gain peace.

Daniel 9 26-27
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[brakelite]

The 69th week is complete when Jesus is cut off.

Hello Eric. I find a number of issues with your contention that the 69 weeks ends with the death of the Messiah, leaving a further week to be yet fulfilled, and they are as follows:

• Daniel 9:24 says: know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince, shall be 7 weeks, and three score and two weeks....

The Holy Spirit is quite specific here in that He gives Daniel a certain time-frame from the date of the commandment to rebuild Jerusalem to the coming of the Messiah, that is 69 weeks, which is, literally 483 years. Although there has in times past a debate as to the exact date of Artaxerxes final written decree thus completing the commandment, it has been established by eminent scholars for some time now that the date 457BC to be certain. The Chronology of Ezra 7 by Horn and Wood used numerous ancient sources to establish, without any shadow of doubt, that the Jews of that time used a fall to fall calendar in determining the years of Artaxerxes reign. This placed the 7th year of his reign firmly in 457BC as opposed to some other scholars that claimed 458. If we add 483 to 457, we come to 27AD. This date is without doubt the year of Jesus baptism, and the time of His annointing as Messiah. As I sad in my previous post, the anointing of the Holy Spirit was what began Christ's ministry. There really can be no correlation between the termination of the 483 years and Calvary.

• Nor can verse 24 as above be said to be fulfilled. The words "unto the Messiah" can only be understood to refer to His arrival, or to the start of His ministry. Certainly not to His death.
• Which brings us inevitably to the identity of the one who confirmed the covenant, and in the midst of the week caused the sacrifice and oblation to cease. All of which brings us to the futuristic conjectures regarding a covenant between the antichrist and Israel, a future literal temple in Jerusalem, and the re-establishment of the sacrificial system in order to sustain the futurist paradigm. All of which is completely unnecessary because all of the pre-reqisites of the prophecy were fulfilled by the Messiah during the final week already completed between 27AD and 34AD, in the midst of which He was 'cut off', causing the sacrifice and oblation to cease, at least in the eyes of God they had become useless.
• Finally, along with a host of others in modern Christianity, such as Hal Lindsay, Tim Le Haye, Jerry Jenkins, van Impe, John Hagee etc you have trampled and trodden under the core teachings of the reformers that for over 500 years were unanimous in their declaration that the papacy was the antichrist. Fururism, a hermenuetic along with preterism, Was invented by Jesuits to hide the truth and turn away the reformers accusing fingers pointing at themselves, and by creating a gap between the legs and the toes of the statue of Daniel 2; by ignoring the scriptures that clearly testify to the continuation of Rome down to the end of time; by inserting a hole in history completely obliterating the darkest ages of the 1260 years of Christian history from the text books; have effectively hidden the true antichrist within it.

In conclusion, by refusing to recognise and by denying so utterly the testimony of the reformers and playing into the hands of the Roman power by teaching and disseminating the Jesuit prophetic perspective, modern Protestantism is now no longer Protestant, but truly a daughter of the harlot and on her way back to mother. Little wonder that so many distinguished Proetstant leaders could sign with such enthusiasm declarations like Evangelicals and Catholics Together.

Joseph Tanner said in his book Daniel and Revelation

“So great a hold did the conviction that the Papacy was the Antichrist gain upon the minds of men, that
Rome at last saw she must bestir herself, and try, by putting forth other systems of interpretation, to
counteract the identification of the Papacy with the Antichrist. Accordingly, towards the close of the
century of the Reformation two of her most learned doctors set themselves to the task, each endeavoring
by different means to accomplish the same end, namely, that of diverting men’s minds from perceiving
the fulfillment of the prophecies of the Antichrist in the Papal system. The Jesuit Alcasar devoted
himself to bring into prominence the Preterist method of interpretation, which we have already briefly
noticed, and thus endeavored to show that the prophecies of Antichrist were fulfilled before the Popes
ever ruled at Rome, and therefore could not apply to the Papacy. On the other hand the Jesuit Ribera
tried to set aside the application of these prophecies to the Papal Power by bringing out the Futurist
system, which asserts that these prophecies refer properly not to the career of the Papacy, but to that of
some future supernatural individual, who is yet to appear, and to continue in power for three and a half
years.”


Tanner wrote this in the 19th century. He would be astounded at how much the modern Christian world has swallowed the papal deceptions.

Has therefore modern Protestantism turned itself into the False prophet because they proclaim the prophetic message they obtained from the beast?

 

[Eric E Stahl]

Isaiah 16:1-5 KJV
1 Send ye the lamb(((Jesus))) to the ruler of the land from Sela to the wilderness, unto the mount of the daughter of Zion(((Israel))). (((Zechariah 14:1-5 KJV)))

2 For it shall be, that, as a wandering bird cast out of the nest, so the daughters of Moab shall be at the fords of Arnon. (((Israel will flee Jerusalem and go with Moab to the river ford of Arnon)))

3 Take counsel, execute judgment; make thy shadow as the night in the midst of the noonday; hide the outcasts; bewray not him that wandereth.

4 Let mine outcasts (((Israel not the church))) dwell with
thee, Moab; be thou a covert to them from the face of the spoiler: for the extortioner is at an end, the spoiler ceaseth, the oppressors are consumed out of the land.

5 And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he(((Jesus))) shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.

 

[brakelite]

The modern controversy that exists between the various hermeneutical methods of prophetic interpretation, those being preterist, historicist, and futurist, goes deeper than simply being 'right' or 'wrong' regards understanding prophecy. What we teach has far greater impact than we can possibly know. The Holy Spirit I believe has just revealed to me something that the futurist hermeneutic demands, something that distorts and confuses the truth of the war that is currently raging between the powers of darkness and Christ. This war is a fact of life for all who believe and all who reject Christ as Savior. We believers are intimately engaged in this war. through prayer, through the sharing of the gospel, we are not only at the front lines, but are also the ultimate prize to be claimed by the eventual victor, who we know of course to be Jesus.
So what is this tenet of futurism that distorts the truth of this spiritual warfare? It is the core belief among futurists that the nation of Israel is central to future prophetic fulfillment. For 6000 years Satan, our adversary, and Jesus' arch enemy, has waged relentless war against God's people. When Jesus was here in person, Satan attacked Him viciously, constantly, unrelentingly, culminating at Calvary. When Jesus arose from the grave, much to Satan's horror, he continued his attacks, but because Jesus was personally out of reach, Satan targeted his attacks against those who remained, Christ's ambassadors or representatives, the church. The nation of Israel, for so long Satan's prime focus because it was the nation, or more specifically the tribe of Judah and even more specifically the family of David, that was to be the vehicle for the birth of the Messiah. Throughout the OT we see Satan's attempts to wipe out the root, that the fruit could not result. Particularly we see this in his targeting of the family of David, and his constant temptations to false worship, knowing that God's wrath and discipline would result in their destruction. Yet God in His mercy preserved a remnant. There has always been a remnant that has been the recipients and keepers of the truth. Israel though, after rejecting Christ, were themselves rejected as God's "chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15.) Paul, among others, were now the chosen vessel. God's people were no longer recognized as a nation, but as a church.
So take a look at history. Was Satan aware of this change in paradigm? Absolutely! He knew very well who is most dangerous foe now was. It was those who now knew the truth of God's love as revealed in the gospels. His attacks were directed against first, God's people, and second, against God's word. The former religious elite of the nation of Israel were Satan's first agents in his attacks against the church. Then pagan Rome became his chief weapon, and after the failure of violence to quell the growth of the church, raised up a false Christian edifice, began to attack the scriptures and the peoples' access to them, and introduced a raft of false doctrines, creeds, and superstitions that had a huge effect upon the church, and literally tens of thousands were seduced and beguiled by the sophistries of the Roman clergy that inherited the thrones of the Caesars. The little horn that had grown from the head of the 4th beast of Daniel 7 was growing powerful and by the 4th and 5th centuries was demanding all churches everywhere to submit to papal authority. Satan was at last finding far greater success with deception than he had with blatant persecution.
However, there were pockets of resistance. The Celtic church in Britain and Ireland; the churches of Africa, India, and Asia; and the Waldenses of the Piedmont on the papal doorstep retained the truth in Christ and taught the gospel as it was handed down to them from the apostles. They had the scriptures in an unadulterated form, not based on the Gnostic ramblings of Alexandria, and subsequently to the Latin Vulgate of Jerome, but upon the Syraic translations of Lucian of Antioch. These truth bearers were having a powerful impact on paganism wherever they went. In Europe however, where the papacy had far greater influence and where she had the ears of the kings and queens that had surrendered their authority and sovereignty to Rome, these agents of truth found bitter and violent opposition. Satan was not about to relinquish his hold on the minds and the hearts of his deceived subjects so readily. Violence was once again brought to bear, and terrible was the resulting horrors. The inquisitions, the crusades, and various other wars and conflicts that ensued over the next 1000 years or so in Europe claimed it is said at least 50 million lives of those who would not bow their knee to Baal.
1000 years of war, both of a spiritual nature and physical, dominated history throughout the European theatre. Those who clung to the truth, who trusted in Christ and refused to surrender to Roman authority, paid for their fidelity with their lives. Their blood now lies in the earth, but bears powerful witness to those who remained to testify to Rome's wickedness, and to Rome's true identity as the Antichrist. Every reformer and leader of the reformation were unanimous in their condemning the papacy as the little horn, the man of sin. They, with courage that testified to God's power within, exposed Rome's errors, revealing to the world how the inheritor to the throne of the Roman pontiffex maximus, had replaced Christ as sole mediator, had introduced a system that usurped the true gospel, and had become Satan's chief agent in his war against Christ. And the target? Truth, and those who would dare proclaim it.
The reformation became a powerful force, in fact so powerful that the council of Trent was primarily established to find a way to counter the tidal wave of truth that was even then, in the 16th century, threatening to engulf Rome. Another force was established to counter Protestantism at that time, and that was the Jesuits. Their sole purpose then, and remains so to this day, is to destroy Protestantism, or return such to submit once again to papal authority. Thus it was that while Rome could not deny the scriptural truths that supported Protestant identification of the Roman Antichrist, she realised she must devise some way to defuse these powerful arguments in such a way that sound logical, reasonable, and be acceptable to those who had little or no Biblical understanding. It was two Jesuits, sworn to overturn Protestant truth, that found a way. One established preterism, another futurism.
You see, the Protestant Reformers knew for certain that in the prophetic flow of time, the lion (Babylon), the bear (Persia), the leopard (Greece), and the dragon (Rome) had already ruled the world. They also knew that Rome had been divided into ten kingdoms when the barbarians carved up the empire. They knew all too well that the predicted Antichrist was to arise among these ten kingdoms of Western Europe. They saw clearly and distinctly that they were living in the time period of the little horn. The historicist hermeneutical method made it quite simple. A correct understanding of Bible prophecy gave them the unmistakable mandate to unmask this system which had usurped the prerogatives of Christ and adulterated the truth of God!!
In a letter to Spalatin on February 24, 1520, Luther wrote:

“I am practically cornered, and can hardly doubt any more, that the Pope is really the Antichrist, whom the world expects according to a general belief, because everything so exactly corresponds to the way of his life, action, words, and commandments.”

When Luther wrote his book, To the German Nobility, his friends, fearing for his safety, asked him to suppress it. To this request Luther replied: “We here are of the conviction that the Papacy is the seat of the true Antichrist. . . . personally I declare that I owe to the Pope no other obedience than that to Antichrist.”

Two months after Luther made this statement, his book, On the Babylonian Captivity of the Church [notice that he is referring to the papacy as Babylon], was published. In it, Luther spoke of the papacy as “nothing else than the kingdom of Babylon and of very Antichrist. . . . For who is the man of sin and the son of perdition, but he who by his teaching and his ordinances increases the sin and perdition of souls in the church; while he yet sits in the church as if he were God? All these conditions have now for many ages been fulfilled by the papal tyranny.” In 1540, Luther wrote: “Oh, Christ, my Lord, look down upon us and bring upon us thy day of judgment, and destroy the brood of Satan in Rome. There sits the Man, of whom the apostle Paul wrote (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4) that will oppose and exalt himself above God and exalts his own above the commandments of God.”

Concerning the Man of Sin, Luther affirmed that the Antichrist “sitteth not in a stable of fiends, or in a swine-sty, or in a company of infidels, but in the highest and holiest place of all, namely, in the temple of God. . . .Is not this to sit in the temple of God, to profess himself to be the Ruler in the whole church? What is the temple of God? Is it stones and wood? Did not Paul say, “The temple of God is holy, which temple you are?” To sit—what is it but to reign, to teach, and to judge? Who from the beginning of the church has dared to call himself master of the whole church but the Pope alone? None of the saints, none of the heretics ever uttered so horrible a word of pride.”

Luther was not alone in testifying to this. Yet today we have countless leaders of Protestantism who with their futurist hermeneutic pretend none of this happened. A thousand years of extreme;ly important history involving the lives of millions of martys for the faith and revealing Satan's craftiness and cunning and deceptions, is cast aside as if God didn't know it was going to happen and left it out of prophecy. Jumping from pagan Rome to a yet unfulfilled future, over a thousand years of essential Christian history is trampled upon as if of no account. And by adopting Rome's own creation modern theologians have effectively hidden the Antichrist from view in favour of conjecture and guesswork.
And not only so, but the real and very dangerous error of distorting and twisting the truth of who the true focus and target of Satan's lies and deceptions. That is the church, not the nation of Israel. And through futurism our attention is diverted away from the true source of the coming crisis. We are directed to look at the middle east. To some future overlord who will enter the political scene with guns blazing wreaking havoc and vengeance against Israel. And while everyone takes the bait, bait cast out by Rome 400 years ago in the form of futurism, hook, line, sinker, and boat, Rome quietly is working throughout the world to return her wayward daughters to herself. Mother has put out the call to come home, and Protestants by the droves are responding.

 

[brakelite]

Back to the woman of Rev.12; the woman I am convinced is, or at least was, the church. She spent over a 1000 years in the wilderness while the Roman apostasy rampaged through Europe, and the woman clearly survives the initial flood of false doctrines etc that the devil spewed out after her.
What is very interesting, is that God's faithful people, that is those living in the last days, are not portrayed as a woman, but as her 'seed', even the "remnant of her seed which keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" Revelation 12:17. So the last days church, while a remnant (which means they are the same as the original but in numbers very small) are no longer a woman. John doesn't see a woman until Revelation 17.3. John is astonished (verse 6) at what he sees. Why? Because the woman he sees is not the pure woman he saw earlier, but a harlot, a prostitute. Not faithful to her Savior and Husband, but unfaithful. An apostate. And where does he see her?
In the wilderness!!!
So the question must be asked, is this the same woman only now turned away from her former purity and is now wicked? Remember the cry of the second angel in chapter 14," Babylon is fallen, is fallen". Two things are clear. She is the last days counterfeit Christian, church. And, she is a persecuting church in the hands of the devil. So who is she persecuting? Obviously the remnant seed. Remember that chapter 13 speaks constantly of false worship. Thus it is logical to believe that the issue between these two church groups one having the mark, and one refusing it, is an issue over worship.
This ought not be a surprise. When one considers the number of times that Jesus and the writers of the NT warned of false prophets and deception in the last days, and when we go back throughout church history, both OT and new, beginning with Cain and Abel, (an issue over worship between two brothers ), the historical record is awash with blood spilled over issues that surrounded false and true worship, hardly ever over secularism or atheism and truth.