Best Reply to “From Eternity Past”

[NetChaplain]

I wanted to share this reply because I believe it is instructionally significant to the thread’s theme concerning God’s omniscience and omnipotence.


Here's what I think:

God created everything.... including evil. If God did not create it, it wouldn't exist.

God does not do evil, but the fact that evil exists IS GOOD, because it will ultimately glorify Him through the eventual destruction of it.

Too many people want to let God off the hook for evil in the world. But the bottom line is that God does not want to be let off the hook. God is sovereign overall and nothing in the universe happens outside of God's sovereignty. He will accomplish all his purpose (Isaiah 46:9-10).

The fall of the angels in heaven was ordained by God. He was not "surprised" by it. If God did not ordain it, it wouldn't have happened.
Same for the fall of Adam and Eve. Replace them with any other couple that you know and they would have made the exact same decision. It's all good fun to call them idiots or to say "they screwed us" by sinning, but it's folly to claim that had you or I been in the garden back then that we would have made any other decision.

God does not cause the sinner to sin. He doesn't need to. The sinner will sin by default. More often, God restrains us from sinning, way more than we probably ever know (Gen 20:6).

When explaining this concept, many people use language that God "allows" sin to happen. I personally don't believe this is the best word choice because "allowing sin" implies that God is relatively unengaged and is somehow discovering humans conducting sinful acts as history plays itself out. I believe that all sin is ordained by God and is part of His design. The scripture says He declared "the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done." (Isaiah 46:9-10) He declared it! He declared all things not yet done before they would happen. He wrote every day of our lives "when as yet there were none of them." (Psalms 139:16) This is predestination. It is a script that is being played out according to His purpose and for His glory. Predestination is not a discovery of people's choices through His divine foreknowledge. It is a sovereign ordination of things not yet done.

- A Forum Member

 

[NetChaplain]

Though evil came by God’s creation, this does not incur attribution to Him as doing evil. The crux of this issue concerns His foreknowledge of evil coming into creation, because that which is foreknown is that which is foreordained, thus He preplanned everything according to His “perfect will” (Rom 12:2).

He foreknew Satan would be “a murderer from the beginning,” who “abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him” (John 8:44). The fact Satan was “the anointed cherub” and “wast perfect in thy ways,” was an insignificant position because God knew eventually “iniquity” would be “found in thee” (Eze 28:14, 15).

This concept only partially parallels God’s foreknowledge of man’s iniquity, the difference being that His plans of redemption involved man only, for angels cannot be “heirs of salvation” (Heb 1:14). All angels were created, but only two humans were created and the remnant incarnated, thus bringing into reality by His preplanning, those who would be “born of God.”

 

[DHC]

Though evil came by God’s creation, this does not incur attribution to Him as doing evil. The crux of this issue concerns His foreknowledge of evil coming into creation, because that which is foreknown is that which is foreordained, thus He preplanned everything according to His “perfect will” (Rom 12:2).

He foreknew Satan would be “a murderer from the beginning,” who “abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him” (John 8:44). The fact Satan was “the anointed cherub” and “wast perfect in thy ways,” was an insignificant position because God knew eventually “iniquity” would be “found in thee” (Eze 28:14, 15).

This concept only partially parallels God’s foreknowledge of man’s iniquity, the difference being that His plans of redemption involved man only, for angels cannot be “heirs of salvation” (Heb 1:14). All angels were created, but only two humans were created and the remnant incarnated, thus bringing into reality by His preplanning, those who would be “born of God.”

Hello NetChaplain.

What levels of God's creation do you see as forordained?

Is war between countries foreordained for example?

 

[NetChaplain]

I believe Satan and Adam were created apart from the sinful nature and that this nature came into being by the choice of the created, because there was a time when there was no "iniquity found" (Eze 28:15) concerning the Lucifer, and that Adam was "good" (Gen 1:31), thus also apart from the same.

The crux-issue is the fact that since God foreknew everything, He ordained (preplanned) everything to serve His purpose. This is the reason for the thread, to exhibit God's control, which in knowing, the believer can be assured that He works "all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose" (Rom 8:28).

Concerning predestination of the elect, the issue will most likely remain mostly unknown in its fullest comprehension and I believe this is the crux-passage why: "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour (Rom 9:21)?

 

[DHC]

Concerning predestination of the elect, the issue will most likely remain mostly unknown in its fullest comprehension and I believe this is the crux-passage why: "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour (Rom 9:21)?

Hello Net Chaplain.


You stated the following.


"Concerning predestination of the elect, the issue will most likely remain mostly unknown in its fullest comprehension and I believe
this is the crux-passage why: "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another
unto dishonour (Rom 9:21)?"


Is the subject of the ninth chapter the 'predestination of the elect' or is it really about
election of the Jew and Gentile by faith and not by works! We need to pay careful
attention to the actual revelation that Paul discloses to us in this chapter.


Here are the key verses in this chapter that tell us what Paul is talking about.


8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children
of the promise are regarded as descendants.


In other words Net Chaplain, it is not the 'honorable' clay of the flesh (Israel) who are the
children of God. It is not Israel by natural lineage, the offspring of Abraham that are heirs.
It is the 'children of the promise' that are the true descendants.


Israel the beloved, the 'honorable clay' by birth right, have been hardened by God.
The nation of Israel did not achieve the 'righteousness' and this is what Paul is explaining.


31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.


Israel failed to be elect and were hardened by God, Net Chaplain. Paul is in fact answering
the puzzling question that Israel's rejection of it's own messiah was to the Gentiles.
How could God's very own chosen people, honorable people by descent, reject their
own messiah? That is not conceivable, how could Israel not be elect, they are God's
own people. How do the chosen people become the unchosen enemies of Christ,
Paul please explain.


The Gentiles or 'not My people' have become the 'beloved' by faith and not by works.
Paul throughout the letter to the Romans is simply expanding upon his own profound
revelation of the election of the Gentiles by faith and not by the works of the law.

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained
righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of
righteousness, did not arrive at that law.


There you have it Net Chaplain, the elect are those who respond to the Gospel of
Jesus Christ. Election is not by descent, it does not matter whether one is a Jew or
a Gentile. Election is available to all who call on the name of Jesus Christ.


Now for the last paragraph which seperates one type of clay from the other.


30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained
righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law
of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.


Have another read of Romans chapters 9-11, and you tell me whether or not Paul
is discussing the reason for the failure of Israel to achieve election. Paul certainly
is not talking about the predestined elect by any means!

 

[NetChaplain]

Hello Net Chaplain.
You stated the following.

"Concerning predestination of the elect, the issue will most likely remain mostly unknown in its fullest comprehension and I believe
this is the crux-passage why: "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another
unto dishonour (Rom 9:21)?"

Is the subject of the ninth chapter the 'predestination of the elect' or is it really about
election of the Jew and Gentile by faith and not by works! We need to pay careful
attention to the actual revelation that Paul discloses to us in this chapter.

Here are the key verses in this chapter that tell us what Paul is talking about.

8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children
of the promise are regarded as descendants.

In other words Net Chaplain, it is not the 'honorable' clay of the flesh (Israel) who are the
children of God. It is not Israel by natural lineage, the offspring of Abraham that are heirs.
It is the 'children of the promise' that are the true descendants.

Israel the beloved, the 'honorable clay' by birth right, have been hardened by God.
The nation of Israel did not achieve the 'righteousness' and this is what Paul is explaining.

31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.

Israel failed to be elect and were hardened by God, Net Chaplain. Paul is in fact answering
the puzzling question that Israel's rejection of it's own messiah was to the Gentiles.
How could God's very own chosen people, honorable people by descent, reject their
own messiah? That is not conceivable, how could Israel not be elect, they are God's
own people. How do the chosen people become the unchosen enemies of Christ,
Paul please explain.

The Gentiles or 'not My people' have become the 'beloved' by faith and not by works.
Paul throughout the letter to the Romans is simply expanding upon his own profound
revelation of the election of the Gentiles by faith and not by the works of the law.

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained
righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of
righteousness, did not arrive at that law.

There you have it Net Chaplain, the elect are those who respond to the Gospel of
Jesus Christ. Election is not by descent, it does not matter whether one is a Jew or
a Gentile. Election is available to all who call on the name of Jesus Christ.

Now for the last paragraph which seperates one type of clay from the other.

30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained
righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law
of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.

Have another read of Romans chapters 9-11, and you tell me whether or not Paul
is discussing the reason for the failure of Israel to achieve election. Paul certainly
is not talking about the predestined elect by any means!

Hi DHC - I agree with much of your reply and thanks for it. I believe the best reply for me at this time is to share with you my exact belief concerning Rom 9:21, which is identical to J Gill's.

"Hath not the potter power over the clay,.... By the power the potter has over the clay, to shape it in what form he pleases, and out of it to make what vessels he pleases, and for what purposes he thinks fit, which will be most to his own advantage, the apostle expresses the sovereign and unlimited powder which God has over his creatures; the passages referred to, are Isaiah 64:8, in which God is represented as the potter, and men as clay in his hands; now if the potter has such power over the clay which he did not make, only has made a purchase of, or has it in his possession, much more has God a power, who has created the clay, to appoint out of it persons to different uses and purposes, for his own glory, as he sees fit; even

"of the same lump, to make one vessel to honour, and another to dishonour. The apostle seems to design hereby, to point out to us the object of predestination to be man, as yet not made, but as lying in the mere mass of creatureship, signified by the unformed clay, before put into any shape; and is an allusion to the first creation of man, out of the clay, or dust of the earth, Genesis 2:7."

For a completion of the comment:
John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - Romans 9

 

[james1523]

God created the creature but He did not create the evil

God is not the author of evil:
"God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone" (James 1:13)


God is sovereign yet disasters befall humanity apart from His loving and good will, which proves that God is not sovereign.

On the one hand we have no say on how God has created our vessel (our place and time of birth, our physical bodies, our mental dispositions, our traits and personality etc) yet on the other hand human beings have to take responsibility for their own choices and actions without blaming God.

 

[NetChaplain]

God created the creature but He did not create the evil

Hi James - True, God did not create sin, but knew it would come from His creature and planned using it for His purpose.

 

[brakelite]

Hi DHC - I agree with much of your reply and thanks for it. I believe the best reply for me at this time is to share with you my exact belief concerning Rom 9:21, which is identical to J Gill's.

"Hath not the potter power over the clay,.... By the power the potter has over the clay, to shape it in what form he pleases, and out of it to make what vessels he pleases, and for what purposes he thinks fit, which will be most to his own advantage, the apostle expresses the sovereign and unlimited powder which God has over his creatures; the passages referred to, are Isaiah 64:8, in which God is represented as the potter, and men as clay in his hands; now if the potter has such power over the clay which he did not make, only has made a purchase of, or has it in his possession, much more has God a power, who has created the clay, to appoint out of it persons to different uses and purposes, for his own glory, as he sees fit; even

"of the same lump, to make one vessel to honour, and another to dishonour. The apostle seems to design hereby, to point out to us the object of predestination to be man, as yet not made, but as lying in the mere mass of creatureship, signified by the unformed clay, before put into any shape; and is an allusion to the first creation of man, out of the clay, or dust of the earth, Genesis 2:7."

For a completion of the comment:
John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - Romans 9

Why is it that we so often read so much more into a text than is actually there? Romans 9:20,21 is one example.
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What Paul says here is absolutely true. That God, being the Creator and sovereign over all, has absolute authority to make and do whatsoever He likes. But that is all that Paul says. Paul does not say, nor even intimate, that God deliberately makes or creates people for the purpose of destroying them. What potter in his right mind goes about busily and lovingly making vessels with the sole purpose of destroying them? The potter may make a variety of vessels for different purposes, but each one is for a specific use. So also is it with God and His creatures. While we may all have different attributes, talents, skills, learning, and levels of maturity, we may all be useful for the Master's kingdom. Not one of us was created with the intention of destruction. We bring that upon ourselves by our own choices to resist the salvation that Jesus offers all men.

 

[DHC]

Why is it that we so often read so much more into a text than is actually there? Romans 9:20,21 is one example.
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

What Paul says here is absolutely true. That God, being the Creator and sovereign over all, has absolute authority to make and do whatsoever He likes. But that is all that Paul says. Paul does not say, nor even intimate, that God deliberately makes or creates people for the purpose of destroying them. What potter in his right mind goes about busily and lovingly making vessels with the sole purpose of destroying them? The potter may make a variety of vessels for different purposes, but each one is for a specific use. So also is it with God and His creatures. While we may all have different attributes, talents, skills, learning, and levels of maturity, we may all be useful for the Master's kingdom. Not one of us was created with the intention of destruction. We bring that upon ourselves by our own choices to resist the salvation that Jesus offers all men.

Hello Brakelite.

For once we are on the same side of the fence.

I agree with what you said, which is exactly what the scripture states.

Chapter 9 of Romans has nothing to do with election and reprobation.

This chapter reveals why physical Israel failed to achieve righteousness.

 

[DHC]

Hi DHC - I agree with much of your reply and thanks for it. I believe the best reply for me at this time is to share with you my exact belief concerning Rom 9:21, which is identical to J Gill's.

"Hath not the potter power over the clay,.... By the power the potter has over the clay, to shape it in what form he pleases, and out of it to make what vessels he pleases, and for what purposes he thinks fit, which will be most to his own advantage, the apostle expresses the sovereign and unlimited powder which God has over his creatures; the passages referred to, are Isaiah 64:8, in which God is represented as the potter, and men as clay in his hands; now if the potter has such power over the clay which he did not make, only has made a purchase of, or has it in his possession, much more has God a power, who has created the clay, to appoint out of it persons to different uses and purposes, for his own glory, as he sees fit; even

"of the same lump, to make one vessel to honour, and another to dishonour. The apostle seems to design hereby, to point out to us the object of predestination to be man, as yet not made, but as lying in the mere mass of creatureship, signified by the unformed clay, before put into any shape; and is an allusion to the first creation of man, out of the clay, or dust of the earth, Genesis 2:7."

For a completion of the comment:
John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - Romans 9

Hello Net Chaplain, I find the scripture compelling and revealing.

You directed me to read the following.


John Gill's Exposition of the Bible
...proving both election and reprobation, as being not of the works of men, but of the will of God; the former of these he proves, Romans 9:15, from Exodus 33:19, by which it appears, that the choice of men to salvation is not according to the will of man, but according to the grace and love of God, Romans 9:16, the latter he proves by the case of Pharaoh, Romans 9:17.


Well Net Chaplain, John Gill is strongly advertising his own theological bent
regardless of whether or not the scripture supports his opinion.


It is not difficult to observe that John Gill misunderstands the letter to the Romans.
Here I will demonstrate that John Gills argument in the paragraph above is without
the support of the scripture.


John Gill introduces a theological term in the paragraph above, i.e., 'reprobation'.
The meaning of reprobation is, '2. One who is predestined to damnation'.
(thefreedictionary)


John Gill is under the impression that Romans 9 is concerned with election and
reprobation. It is reprobation that John Gill attempts to prove by citing the case
of pharaoh, Romans 9:17.


Here is the misunderstanding that John Gill displays, Pharoah was not selected for
reprobation Net Chaplain. Because the scripture does not state that Pharoah was damned!


Here is the scripture in question that John Gill quotes as evidence of the proof.


Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have
compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God
who has mercy.
17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate
My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.”
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.


God gave this particular pharoah a hardened heart to proclaim God's name.
The scripture does not tell us that pharoah was damned to hell. That is only
John Gill's theology at work, it is not what you will read in the scripture.


What is clear is that John Gill failed in using pharoah as proof of reprobation.


John Gill completely lacks any understanding of the letter to the Romans.


Chapter nine of Romans is about Israel and why Israel failed, it is not about
election and reprobation at all.

 

[NetChaplain]

Paul does not say, nor even intimate, that God deliberately makes or creates people for the purpose of destroying them. What potter in his right mind goes about busily and lovingly making vessels with the sole purpose of destroying them?

Hi BL - You definitely make a good point, but I believe the ordaining is more related to God knowing they will choose "destruction," even prior to creating, but not causing them to choose it.

Those who will choose to perish are the "vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" (Rom 9:22); and not fitted by God for this, which I agree with Gill's comment on here:

"Fitted for destruction," that is, eternal damnation; not by God, for this does not respect God's act of ordination to punishment; but by Satan, the god of this world, that blinds them, who works effectually in them, and leads them captive at his will; and by themselves, by their own wickedness, hardness of heart, and impenitence, do they treasure up to themselves wrath, against the day of wrath, so that their destruction is of themselves."

 

[NetChaplain]

John Gill's Exposition of the Bible ...proving both election and reprobation, as being not of the works of men, but of the will of God;

I do not think anyone yet has explained fully (even Gill) Scripture's complete intent of Romans 9:21, 22, so I'm still in research concerning these verses.