Whoever has been born of God

[Brighthouse]

Most interesting discussion!! Not to argue but consider this scripture i did not see. Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness which is based upon the law shall live by righteousness.A good jewish man who is a friend of mine and I went round and round the other day,hehe,it was fun! he said that the ten commandment were not considered law by him but rather instructions!! he quoted gal 3:24 hehe he forgot the following verse after this!! Which of course I showed him,and said this.example, you see a stop sign,under the law you are suppose to stop,but there are no instruction on the stop sign except to stop,for how long,some roll to a stop but still are in motion.some come to a complete stop,some go slow through the stop. The point!

The commandment says thou shalt not commit adultery,but there are no instructions as to mend the relationship,so you won't commit the act.Enter Jesus, our instructions!!John 13:34. As you see for yourselfs in verse 9 of chapter 8 of hebrews 8:9 this was talking about the ten commandments. Jesus died and rose and fulfilled what we could never do. he took our place, so we would never even have to do it!( col 1:13-14) ( col 2:13-14) nailing the old law upon the cross!! So what does grace mean,free to sin?? LOl May it never be! We love our Jesus so much, we no longer are sin consciousness.( heb 10:1-4)

The ten commandments were never put there to free any of us,but rather show man there sin,and therefore become sin conscious!! Showing the jews they needed a savior! Jesus fullfilled the whole law,to free us from always thinking about sin! Now we stay thankful for all He did!For what can we do to take away sin?? My friend looks to mix the old law with the New Covenant,there is no mix to the new. For what can any of us do to become free, and stay free from sin unless through our Jesus? (phil 4:5-9!!) Jesus shows us how to stay free!

By remembering who paid our price,and to keep our heart and mind always thankful upon him!! ( 1 thess 5:18) My jewish friend does not see it this way.I understand!! Years of Torah he studied so hard to master keep him from seeing beyond the old law. he said he accepts Jesus,but said Jesus and the law go together.( gal 5:2-6) a big discussion went on over this in acts the 15th chapter,please do look at it when you get a chance.

You who believes they must keep one part of the law,then they must keep it all,or have failed! I see both sides my good brothers! The question I had to ask myself was this,Is Jesus better then stone to me??( 2 cor 3:5-18) Jesus is to me! It is why I can stay so very thankful to him everyday!!And i know you also are most thankful to!! Blessing all! Thanks again for the fun.Some can get very emotional over this!! I am not looking to change anyones mind! I cannot! All I can do is point to who changed mine! Jesus did! Blessing all!!

 

[B-A-C]

Galations 5 and James 2 which you quoted above are the two places the Bible talks about keeping "the whole law".

Gal 5:1; It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
Gal 5:2; Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal 5:3; And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

Those who get circumcised (the achieve righteousness) are under obligation to keep the whole law. No one else is, everyone else simply needs to love one another (part of the law, not the whole law).

Gal 5:4; You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5; For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.
Gal 5:6; For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.
Gal 5:7; You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
Gal 5:8; This persuasion did not come from Him who calls you.
Gal 5:9; A little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough.
Gal 5:10; I have confidence in you in the Lord that you will adopt no other view; but the one who is disturbing you will bear his judgment, whoever he is.
Gal 5:11; But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.
Gal 5:12; I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.

The first eleven verses here are talking about circumcision. "The Law" so speak.

Gal 5:13; For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
Gal 5:14; For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Verses 13 and 14 also mentions "The Law" but it is talking about loving one another.

James 2 is similar

Jas 2:8; If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.

Here we go again, loving your neighbor is a good thing.

Jas 2:9; But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10; For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
Jas 2:11; For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12; So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
Jas 2:13; For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
Jas 2:14; What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:15; If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
Jas 2:16; and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
Jas 2:17; Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
Jas 2:18; But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
Jas 2:19; You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

No where in James 2 does it says not to keep the commandments. It simply says if you break one of them, you break all of them.
The following verse emphasizes this as well.
1 Cor 7:19; Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God. (circumcision was the "the law")

John 14:21; "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."
John 15:17; "This I command you, that you love one another.

1 Jn 5:2; By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

Notice the "the law" (circumcision) is no longer required. Following the commandments is.

(NLT) Romans 2:
12: When the Gentiles sin, they will be destroyed, even though they never had God’s written law. And the Jews, who do have God’s law, will be judged by that law when they fail to obey it. 13: For merely listening to the law doesn’t make us right with God. It is obeying the law that makes us right in his sight. 14: Even Gentiles, who do not have God’s written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it. 15: They demonstrate that God’s law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right. 16: And this is the message I proclaim—that the day is coming when God, through Christ Jesus, will judge everyone’s secret life.

 

[Barny]

Galations 5 and James 2 which you quoted above are the two places the Bible talks about keeping "the whole law"

.

That's correct. Gal 5 and James 2:10 is saying that those under the law are obliged to keep the law perfectly.
Those under the law seek to attain righteousness by works of the law. They do not submit to God's righteousness. They are in rebellion against God, fornicating with Hagar (righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24).

Those who get circumcised (the achieve righteousness) are under obligation to keep the whole law. No one else is, everyone else simply needs to love one another (part of the law, not the whole law).

In scripture we see the law being described by it's various aspects.
It's described as circumcision, or as sacrifices, the 10 commandments, and even as tablets of stone.
It's also described as the law of righteousness and also the law of sin and death.

We should not then focus on just one aspect and use this as an excuse to split the law up so as to make up a new doctrine.

Jas 2:9; But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10; For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
Jas 2:11; For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12; So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty.
Jas 2:13; For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment.
Jas 2:14; What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:15; If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
Jas 2:16; and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
Jas 2:17; Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
Jas 2:18; But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works."
Jas 2:19; You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.
Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Note above how mercy triumphs over judgement.
But we see the opposite from legalists. They preach judgement/condemnation for anyone who does not obey the law/10 commandments.

BTW, our works are to believe on Jesus, John 6:29.
Unbelief in Jesus is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9.

Legalists show by their works of the law/10 commandments that they deny God, Tit 1:16.
Legalists argue that unless a Christian obeys the law perfectly, or some slightly lessor ambiguous level of obedience, then such are unrighteous sinners. Thus we see the legalists deny that our faith is counted for righteousness and also they continue to charge Christians with sin in spite of the fact that God says that nobody can charge anything against us, Rom 8:33. Jesus set us free from sin (John 8:36, Rom 6:7.) . Hence we've "ceased from sin" 1Pet 4:1.

1 Jn 5:2; By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

If we look a little bit before this verse we see it tells us what his commandments are.
1John 3:22,23
we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Under these commandments we are righteous (Rom 4:5.), sanctified/holy (Heb 10:10, Rom 11:16.), perfected (Heb 10:14.) and cannot be charged with sin (Rom 8:33, 1John 3:9.).
Under these commandments we love one another which means we also forgive 7x70 should someone do us wrong.

Note also that under this ministry of righteousness/the spirit that Christians are under, that there is no condemnation (Rom 8:1). Satan the accuser can not charge us with sin (Rom 8:33). Only those under the law/10 commandments can be charged with sin/transgression of the law.

 

[B-A-C]

Note above how mercy triumphs over judgement.

The mercy of loving your brother is what these verses are talking about.

we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

That is correct, love one another as he commanded.

But we see the opposite from legalists. They preach judgement/condemnation for anyone who does not obey the law/10 commandments.

I guess that makes Jesus a legalist.

Matt 19:17; And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
John 14:15; "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 15:10; "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

We should not then focus on just one aspect and use this as an excuse to split the law up so as to make up a new doctrine.

That is correct, we should not just focus on faith alone, but faith with works.

 

[Barny]

I guess that makes Jesus a legalist.

Jesus fulfilled the law for us so yes, we see he kept and taught the law. And he did this on our behalf, if we believe on him.

Rom 7:12
Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

1Tim 1:9
we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully

Matt 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus is the only one who kept the law perfectly, and he taught it. He fulfilled the law for we who believe on him. Our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3.
Whose righteousness, holiness, perfection, sinlessness do you think we stand in?
If you believe that it's Christ in us that God sees, then why would you then charge Christians with sin?

Legalists often quote Matt 5:19 without thinking about how it condemns them due to their obvious failure to keep the law perfectly.

IMatt 19:17; And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

This scripture you quote is often quoted by many without the following verses for context.
Matt 19:20,21
The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

we should not just focus on faith alone, but faith with works.

You seem to be suggesting that some minimum standard of obedience to the law is required to prove our salvation.
Is that correct?
If so what is that minimum standard of proof, through obedience to the law, that shows our faith?

Contrary to your claim, we find in scripture that the works that shows our faith is to believe on Jesus, John 6:29.
This is what the thief on the cross did.
Believing on Jesus is God's will for us, John 6:40.
Unbelief in Jesus is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9.

Nobody should then add works of the law to this, as that is to be lukewarm , Rev 3:15,16.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

 

[DHC]

The mercy of loving your brother is what these verses are talking about.

That is correct, love one another as he commanded.

I guess that makes Jesus a legalist.

Matt 19:17; And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

That is correct, we should not just focus on faith alone, but faith with works.

Hello B-A-C.

I noticed in your post that you quoted Matthew 19, Jesus was talking to
an Israelite about the laws belonging to the old covenant. Perhaps when
quoting from the Gospel of Matthew it sure would help if you mentioned
to the readers that the Gentiles are not included in the old covenant. The ten
commandments exist within the covenant between God and Israel. Certainly
not a covenant between God, the nation of Israel and the Gentile nations.

Please read Exodus carefully B-A-C as the parties involved in the old
covenant are clearly listed.

Now we will inspect your quotation and note the reference to the old covenant laws.

Matthew 19
16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?”
17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you
wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery;
You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness;
19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
20 The young man *said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and
give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

The 'ten commandments' plus 'loving your neighbor' plus 'selling your possessions'
plus following Jesus. Well, well B-A-C, where is 'sell your possessions' in the law.
How come 'love your neighbor...' is also not included in the ten commandments.

Do we follow the commands of the messiah or the old covenant law ???

I am aware that Jesus gave more than 100 commands. I am also aware
that the ten commands are not the only so called moral laws in the
old covenant. Further B-A-C, the apostle Paul gave some extra commands.

Jesus and the commandments. Have a shot B-A-C at what these commandments
are. Remember the simplicity of the Gospel of Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[B-A-C]

I noticed in your post that you quoted Matthew 19; Jesus was talking to
an Israelite about the laws belonging to the old covenant. Perhaps when
quoting from the Gospel of Matthew it sure would help if you mentioned
to the readers that the Gentiles are not included in the old covenant. The ten
commandments exist within the covenant between God and Israel. Certainly
not a covenant between God, the nation of Israel and the Gentile nations.

Gentiles were not included because they weren't God's people. Anyone who wanted to become one of God's people was under the old covenant. Even in the Old Testament
if you were a Gentile that wanted God to be your God, you had to be circumcised (even Gentiles).
Gen 17:9; God said further to Abraham, "Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations.
Gen 17:10; "This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.
Gen 17:11; "And you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between Me and you.
Gen 17:12; "And every male among you who is eight days old shall be circumcised throughout your generations, a servant who is born in the house or who is bought with money from any foreigner, who is not of your descendants.
Gen 17:13; "A servant who is born in your house or who is bought with your money shall surely be circumcised; thus shall My covenant be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
Gen 17:14; "But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant."

Acts 15:1; Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
John 7:22; "For this reason Moses has given you circumcision (not because it is from Moses, but from the fathers), and on the Sabbath you circumcise a man.

Exod 12:43 The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "This is the ordinance of the Passover: no foreigner is to eat of it;
Exod 12:44 but every man's slave purchased with money, after you have circumcised him, then he may eat of it.
Exod 12:45 "A foreigner or a hired servant shall not eat of it. (some Bibles say Gentile )
Exod 12:46 "It is to be eaten in a single house; you are not to bring forth any of the flesh outside of the house, nor are you to break any bone of it.
Exod 12:47 "All the congregation of Israel are to celebrate this.
Exod 12:48 "But if a foreigner lives with you, and celebrates the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it.
Exod 12:49 "The same law shall apply to the native as to the foreigners (Gentiles) who live among you."

So as you see, the covenant in Exodus applied to Gentiles as well.

This remained in effect for the New Testament in a way.
Rom 2:25; For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26; So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
Some Bibles translate this as...
(MSG) The reverse is also true: The uncircumcised who keep God's ways are as good as the circumcised--
(NIrV) Sometimes those who aren't circumcised do what the law requires. Won't God accept them as if they had been circumcised?
(NLT) And if the Gentiles obey God's law, won't God declare them to be His own people?

Rom 2:27; And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
Rom 2:28; For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
Rom 2:29; But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Jesus and the commandments. Have a shot B-A-C at what these commandments
are. Remember the simplicity of the Gospel of Lord Jesus Christ.

The simplicity of Christ is to follow his commandments. They are not burdensome. ( 1 Jn 5:3; )

They are loving God and loving your neighbor, which are still commandments. This is not the same as saying there are NO commandments.
Also saying that the teaching of Jesus was only for the Jews is a false statement as well. If Jesus is only for the Jews, then we Gentiles have no hope.

Acts 11:18; When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life."

Was Ishmael a Jew? Was he from Sarah or Hagar?
Gen 17:23; Then Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all the servants who were born in his house and all who were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham's household, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the very same day, as God had said to him.

How come 'love your neighbor...' is also not included in the ten commandments.

Lev 19:18; 'You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD

According to Paul and Jesus, all of the other commandments are the same thing as love your neighbor.
Rom 13:9; For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

In other words if you aren't stealing from, lying to, murdering, or committing adultery with your neighbor, you ARE loving them.

Matt 22:37; And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Matt 22:38; "This is the great and foremost commandment.
Matt 22:39; "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Matt 22:40; "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

When you have the foundation wrong, you have everything else wrong.