Whoever has been born of God

[Tommy061]

1 Jn 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.
1 Jn 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
1 Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices (produces)righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
1 Jn 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
1 Jn 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Clearly Jesus came to abolish wilful sin and rebellion in the truly repentant sinner. He was sent to take away our sins, but sins we refuse to keep doing wilfully, with a pre planned agenda to disobey Him and go against His word are not covered under the blood of Christ.

The next time the professed lukewarm Christians accuse you of sinless perfection, or they throw out their favorite excuse by asking you "Do you sin?" Just remind them they have the God given ability to STOP their sin and rebellion against Him, and making excuses why they cant stop is from the devil! they are totally ignoring these powerful truths from God.

 

[B-A-C]

Practicing sin and practicing righteousness. The KJ (Authorized as they say in the UK) version of this is a little off the original greek.
The word other versions include (the Message, NIV, NLT, NASB, AMP, God's Word, ASV, and ASV77 for example)...

G4160
ποιέω
poieō
poy-eh'-o
Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; to make or do (in a very wide application, more or less direct): - abide, + agree, appoint, X avenge, + band together, be, bear, + bewray, bring (forth), cast out, cause, commit, + content, continue, deal, + without any delay, (would) do (-ing), execute, exercise, fulfil, gain, give, have, hold, X journeying, keep, + lay wait, + lighten the ship, make, X mean, + none of these things move me, observe, ordain, perform, provide, + have purged, purpose, put, + raising up, X secure, shew, X shoot out, spend, take, tarry, + transgress the law, work, yield. Compare G4238.

Note this word is included in the next verse (1 Jn 3:7; ) even in the King James. It is curious that the King James version does not include it in verse 6. (because it is there in both verses in the original Greek).
Other Bible correctly say "practice" in both verses, or "continually keep doing"

(NASB)
1 Jn 3:6; No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
1 Jn 3:7; Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
1 Jn 3:8; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
1 Jn 3:9; No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 Jn 3:10; By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

It's true, we are no longer slaves to sin. (Rom 6:6; Rom 6:17; ) but someone we make the choice to sin.

Rom 6:16; Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

However if we sin....
1 Jn 2:1; My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

and if we confess...
1 Jn 1:9; If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Luke 11:4; 'And forgive us our sins, For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.'"

Still it is true, we never have to sin.
Jas 1:13; Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
1 Cor 10:13; No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

 

[Barny]

1 Jn 3:5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin.
1 Jn 3:6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
1 Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices (produces)righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
1 Jn 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
1 Jn 3:9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Clearly Jesus came to abolish wilful sin and rebellion in the truly repentant sinner. He was sent to take away our sins, but sins we refuse to keep doing wilfully, with a pre planned agenda to disobey Him and go against His word are not covered under the blood of Christ.
.

Hi Tommy,

Let's define sin first, so that we can better understand what we're talking about.

Sin is unrighteousness, 1John 5:17.
Sin is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9
Sin is blasphemy of the holy Spirit, Mark 3:29.
Sin is transgression of the law, 1John 3:4

Christians do not commit any of these sins.

Our faith is counted for righteousness (Rom 4:5.) hence we cannot be charged with the sin of unrighteousness.

We believe on Jesus hence we cannot be charged with the sin of unbelief.

We do not blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

And we're not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 4:24, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.). Hence we cannot be charged with transgression of the law. Whatever the law says it says to those under it (Rom 3:19.) The law with it's death penalty for even just one transgression, only applies to those under the law.

Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (even sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Hence we see that Christians have ceased from sin from the day they receive Christ.

1Pet 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh (crucified), arm yourselves likewise with the same mind (our old man crucified with him, Rom 6:6. ): for he that hath suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6.) hath ceased from sin

1John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed (Christ) remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Jesus truly set us free from sin (John 8:36.).

Regarding the willful sin you spoke about, that is not referring to what you think it is.

Willful sin is speaking about those who turn back to the law for righteousness.
Remember that Christians are not under the law hence we cannot be charged with it's transgression/sin.

So how does one make themselves a sinner?
Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor/SINNER.

Anyone who determines their righteousness by works of the law will fail. Just one offense makes you guilty of all the law (James 2:10.). Under the law the whole world becomes guilty before God (Rom 3:19.).

Anyone who willfully turns back to the law (thus making themselves a sinner, Gal 2:18.) after having known the truth of the gospel of Christ, is lost.

Heb 10:26
For if we sin wilfully (turning back to the law, Gal 2:18.) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth (of the gospel of Christ), there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

And who are the lukewarm, that you mentioned?
They are those who mix grace with works of the law. We cannot mix grace with works of the law.
Rom 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

God calls upon these lukewarm people to repent or He will spew them out of His mouth, Rev 3:15-19.

 

[Tommy061]

Your concept of the law and sin I do not comprehend, sin is transgression of the law,(Gal 5-19-21) we are not under the outer works of the law or the letter of the law, but under the righteous requirements of the law.(Romans 8-4)

The lukewarm are those who disobey the commands of God, living in thier flesh, and have never come to real repentance and faith.

Could you please answer a question for me so I can try and understand where you are coming from?

Is there any sin(rebellion) to God one has to stop to get saved? Such as fornication, adultery, drunkard, etc..

 

[Tommy061]

You are confused and not honestly translating the word of God. you are saying you can practice fornication, lust, getting drunk on occasion, even molest a child, and since you are not doing it all the time then you can do it on occasion, and just ask God to forgive you?

Eve sinned once against God and died spiritually.

A tree doesnt pratice making fruit it produces fruit, just like a sinner either produces sin(rebellion) or a saint produces righteousness.

He who DOES what is Right is Righteous!
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous 1Jh3:7
In the Bible DOING is Poieo often translated: Produce, Bear, Perform, bring forth, commit, keep, work.
Note that it is NEVER translated; PRACTICE. Herein you have reversal of truth in the mind of men who has concluded that in a ‘Christian’ context DOING anything Righteous is impossible. Therefore if a person is actually making an effort to be Righteous by avoiding even the appearance of evil, they are labeled Self-Righteous and trying to save themselves.
But let’s see how FAR off the Mark this Imaginary concept really is according to the Scriptures. The Word: Poieo is used over 300 times in the New Testament in MANY very telling passages. As when Christ taught the important Truths about Fruit Bearing, simply said: A Good tree cannot bear (poieo) bad Fruit nor can a Bad tree bear (poieo) Good Fruit’ Mt7:17-19 Similar passages: Matt12:33, Lk3:9, 6:43,
Another focal passage is Matt5:19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do (poieo) and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
In order to Enter the Kingdom of heaven a person must be PRODUCING the good and sound Fruit (teaching, doctrine) of Christ. Sheds much more light on such sayings as John15:16 ‘Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain’
Instead of Producing rotten fruit from a Bad tree, those bringing into being Sincerity, Purity and Love shall be His Disciples producing a Kingdom of Righteousness. NOT Practicing to produce it BUT DOING it!
The phony Bible Pundits have twisted the translation of this important Word implying that it means an ‘attempt’ to do what is right or bear good fruit. Thus the translation: Practice, an English verb that can mean something done habitably. So in their minds ‘He who committeh (poieo) sin is of the devil’ 1Jh3:8 actually mean as long as the person is not ‘habitably’ sinning he is in safe standing with God. So if a ‘Christian’ practices drunkenness, fornication, sexual perversions, vile behavior, occasionally (as he inevitably will) he remains in Christ by merely confessing such things and continuing along.
But let us honestly examine the use of this Word in 1 John 3:4, 7-9n the KJV Version:
4 Whosoever committeth (poieo) sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth (poieo) righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth (poieo) sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit (poieo) sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Verse 4 could well be stated: ‘Whoever Commits (produces) sin Commits transgression of the law’
In both instances ‘Commit’ is the Greek for Poieo, a Double denunciation on the fraud of practicing.
Verse 7 is a Strong and Powerful admonition that anyone DOING-PRODUCING-Bearing forth Righteous behavior is indeed a Righteous Person! No question about it this is the Vast contrast between good and evil

Verse 8 Here’s the absolute Proof, the person DOING & PRODUCING Sin is of the devil. So if you’re sinning in thought, word and deed daily you’re father is the devil John8:44, as a SLAVE to Sin:
‘Whoever Commits (poieo) sin is a Slave to sin’ Jh8:35
Verse 9 Concludes the statement of Truth showing that anyone Born of God will NOT be the Bad Tree producing Bad Fruit but a GOOD tree Producing Good Fruit!

Now let’s look at the Modern translations of 1 John 3:6/B] in contrast to the idea of ‘Practice’ :

Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him NKJV
No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. NIV
The NKJV is deceptively uses the Word ‘does’ and although it appears harmless in that it states that a person abiding in Him ‘Does not sin’, it strongly implies that the Word Poieo appears in this passage when it is not present in the Greek. So the old KJV got this one Correct! Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. KJV
Whereas the NIV (and many other new world translations) are wholly misleading and fraudulent in their interpretation. (because this is obviously an interpreters reasoning not a translation of the words)
Here’s another passage in 1John where the word Poieo is not present:
Yet modern versions again add additional words to the passage implying ‘practice’

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. 1Jh5:18 KJV
We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. NKJV

We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the One who was born of God keeps them safe, and the evil one cannot harm them NIV

The NKJV does the same exact thing to this passage they did to 1John3:6, translated ‘sins not’ to ‘does not sin’, which as I pointed out is fine, but I can’t help but think that the translators knew the use of ‘does’ would imply Poieo is also present in the passage.
The NIV however is another fraudulent interpretation in favor of sin, quit typical of today’s false gospel preached and taught almost over the entire planet.
To re-enforce the use of Poieo we move on to Repentance Proven by Deeds. The passages read:
Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Matt3:8, 10
Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Lk3:8-9
This is obviously where we cross the great divide with the present day professing Church. To them Deeds worthy of repentance is a Salvation by works and therefore taboo. But in reality repentance proven by deeds is the ONLY real means of Salvation. Unless a person Produces Fruit worthy of repentance expressed specifically in a departure from all wrong doing his repentance is in vain. (without purpose of no value) In Scripture ‘Performance’ counts, the Kingdom will be given ONLY to those Producing the fruit thereof. The Gift is remission of Past Sins, not a magic cover for sinfulness.
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Matt21:43

It’s important to properly understand the vast difference between Doing Right and Practicing to do Right. The use of the Greek word Poieo used in this sense specifically signifies positive performance as in a Good tree producing Good Fruit. Of course the very opposite is also true as in a Bad tree producing bad fruit. The central truth here is that the tree is not Practicing growing its fruit but that the fruit is a natural outcome of the type of tree it is.
If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him. 1Jh2:29 KJV
If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him. 1Jh2:29
This is why the Apostles constantly used this word to express the imperative of doing what is Right and how it meant the difference between inheriting eternal life or ending up in outer darkness.
Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. 1Tim4:16
Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace. James3:12, 18
As an unproductive Branch can whither and be broken off and burned (Jh15:1-8) so a tree if not Clean down to the root will not Continue to Produce good fruit. We as that tree or branch must have the Ax of Repentance laid to the Root of our sinful rebellion so we can come clean with God and be Productive in His Kingdom. (Matt3:8-12, Lk3:8-9) Therefore if you DO (poieo) your First Works properly the tree will then begin Producing Good Fruit. Rev2:5.
Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Matt3:8-10
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. 2Pet1:10-11.

 

[Tommy061]

Faith Upholds the Law!
Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid! On the contrary, we establish the law. Rom 3:31
If you’re told that Salvation is by Faith and NOT of Works, how does the Law come into play? Simple answer: ‘It Doesn’t’…..at least in your mind. But What is Faith? Is ‘faith without works’ dead? As James says or does the ‘works’ he is speaking of ‘FOLLOW’ Faith. Whereas the Faith comes first. So Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as Righteousness. (Rom4:3)
But what if I also tell you that Abraham WALKED in the STEPS of his faith, doing the DEEDS of faith and thereby OBEYED God? (Rom4:14, John8:39, Heb11:8) Wouldn’t that make faith the following:
A Walk of Faithful Deeds and Obedience! All One in the Same thing. That’s why Faith (real faith) Upholds and Established the law. (Rom13:10) Because it Obeys and Keeps the Commands of Christ! In this the Bible then Makes perfect sense.
As ‘Workers’ together with God, we Work Out our Salvation in fear and trembling, Make our Calling Sure, Run the Race with endurance, Fight the good fight, Holdfast, endure, and obey. It’s no longer necessary for the pastors to explain all these away and convince you Deeds don’t matter. Because the Bible CLEARLY says you will Judged According to your Deeds:
who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Rom2:6-8
(Also Check: Matt12:37, 16:27, Jh5:28-29, 2Cor5:10, 1Pet1:17, Rev2:23, 22:11-14)
Now if Deeds will determine the Outcome of your Salvation (as these passages clearly state) WHY would you embrace a System of Doctrine that teaches otherwise? James plainly says that the ‘Devils also Believe’ James2:19. Meaning they indeed possess Faith! It’s undeniable that they (the devils) possess the SAME faith your Churches Preach as SAVING Faith. It’s the faith of Slothful, Biblical illiterate, lukewarm hypocrites who love the fun and games of their ‘religion’ but loath the Commands of Scripture.
Faith is WALKING in the Spirit, not the flesh. (Rom8:1-4) Thus it fulfills the Righteous requirements of the law and falls in line with the Message of Christ. When asked what must I do to inherit eternal life, He answered in this manner: “KEEP the Commandments!” (Matt19:16-22) Explained further therefore in RomaRomaRomans 8; test of all Commandments to love God is KEPT by WALKING in the Spirit….again a WORK of Faith With Power! (2Thess1:11) DEEDS and FAITH…..Synonymous! You can’t have one without the other or you’re nothing more than a ‘Devil’ who ‘Believes’.
What they have done inside the System is highly ‘Spiritualize’ the Bible and make simple truths into big mysterious doctrines only the theologians can understand. Thereby they can easily convinced the unlearned their ‘System’ is correct and the Bible actually does teach that your Sins are Covered by Grace, your Imputed Righteous and Eternally Secure. All by merely ‘Believing’ in Jesus! From there it’s easy to explain away all the Direct Commands and Warnings of Scripture. It’s says ‘Obey’ but Really means, HE Obeyed for you. It says ‘Serve’, but really means HE Served in your place. In fact, EVERYTHING Jesus said about Holding fast, enduring to the end, Taking up your cross, denying yourself, counting the cost, is to show you HE DID it all so you don’t have to!

You see how Slick this Message really is and why it’s dubbed ‘Great Swelling Words of Emptiness’ in the Bible. (2Pet2:18) Rather than you Working out your own Salvation, Making your calling Sure, Running the Race with endurance, Patiently Continuing in the faith, JESUS Did it all for you IN ADVANCE! That’s whey Faith can NEVER be associated with Works or Deeds of any sort, no matter What the Bible says. You Remain a Wretched, Chief of Sinners, Convinced that Sin humbles your heart before God, when in reality you’re growing Harder and Harder by the day in rebellion to the truth.

But that’s another discussion entirely, we’ll deal with later. Here we need to understand the Working Dynamic of Saving faith. It’s really VERY Simple: There is a LAW of Faith, Rom3:27, The LAW of Faith is LOVE, Gal5:6, Faith WORKS by Love, And Love Upholds and Fulfills the LAW! Rom13:10.
Without this Working Dynamic, you possess the Faith of Devils. James2:19. That’s why Faith Without Works is Dead and WHY Abraham was Justified by his DEEDS and NOT by FAITH ALONE! Js2:24.

 

[DHC]

Faith Upholds the Law!
But what if I also tell you that Abraham WALKED in the STEPS of his faith, doing the DEEDS of faith and thereby OBEYED God? (Rom4:14, John8:39, Heb11:8) Wouldn’t that make faith the following:
A Walk of Faithful Deeds and Obedience! All One in the Same thing. That’s why Faith (real faith) Upholds and Established the law. (Rom13:10) Because it Obeys and Keeps the Commands of Christ!sense.

The Gentiles were never under the law, they never were given the law to follow.
The ten commandments belong to a covenant God established with Israel.
Law is for the unrighteous, not for the righteous (those in Christ).

Trying to obey the law will only increase your sin.

Also if we are led by the Spirit there is no law anyway.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Romans 6:15
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?
May it never be!

Galatians 5
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision (legalism) nor uncircumcision means anything,
but faith working through love.

Galatians 5
13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into
an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.

Galatians 5
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Galatians 5
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness,
faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

 

[B-A-C]

Trying to obey the law will only increase your sin.

You said the only sin is unbelief. Which is it? Obeying the law or unbelief? Or are there other sins we can commit besides unbelief?
The law isn't the same thing as the commandments. The terms are sometimes used inter changeably, but they don't always mean the same thing.

1 Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
Matt 19:17; And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into eternal life, keep the commandments."
1 Cor 7:19; Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

 

[Barny]

The lukewarm are those who disobey the commands of God, living in thier flesh, and have never come to real repentance and faith.

We'll have to disagree.

Repentance was of dead works of self-righteousness.
Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God.

Repentance is a once only thing, as Heb 6:4-6 confirms.

Could you please answer a question for me so I can try and understand where you are coming from?

Is there any sin(rebellion) to God one has to stop to get saved? Such as fornication, adultery, drunkard, etc..

Fornication, adultery, drunkenness are all descriptions of those who rebel against God by turning to the law for righteousness.
Anyone who preaches the law is a fornicator/adulterer/drunkard. This is speaking in spiritual terms.

God's will is that we abstain from fornication (1Thess 4:3).
Fornication with who?
It's Hagar, who is symbolic of OT righteousness by works of the law (Gal 4:24).

1Cor 6:15-19
Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot (Hagar/righteousness by works of the law)? God forbid.What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

Flee fornication (with Hagar). Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?


1Cor 5 also speaks against fornication with Hagar. It's described as one having his father's (the devil, as Jesus described in John 8:44) wife (Hagar/righteousness by works of the law). In 1Cir 5 we are told to put away such wicked people out of the church.

And how are these fornicating legalists drunkards?
Rev 17:1-2
And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great ***** that sitteth upon many waters: With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

We still see people today preaching works of the law to determine righteousness. Those preaching such doctrines are spiritual fornicators, drunk with the wine of fornication with Hagar.

 

[B-A-C]

Repentance was of dead works of self-righteousness.

What does acts of self righteousness have to do with the commandments? If we can follow the commandments 100%, then we have something to boast about. ( Rom 4:2; )

 

[B-A-C]

Also if we are led by the Spirit there is no law anyway.

That's a big IF. How do we know if we aren't walking by the Spirit?

Gal 5:19; Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20; idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Rom 8:13; for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

2 Cor 5:10; For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Gal 5:13; For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
Gal 5:14; For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Gal 5:15; But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
Gal 5:16; But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

If you aren't loving your neighbor, you aren't being led by the Spirit.

 

[B-A-C]

The Gentiles were never under the law, they never were given the law to follow.

Jos 8:32; He wrote there on the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he had written, in the presence of the sons of Israel.
Jos 8:33; All Israel with their elders and officers and their judges were standing on both sides of the ark before the Levitical priests who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, the foreigners as well as the Jews. Half of them stood in front of Mount Gerizim and half of them in front of Mount Ebal, just as Moses the servant of the LORD had given command at first to bless the people of Israel.

Gentiles were under the law if they wanted to be counted among God's people.

Jos 8:34; Then afterward he read all the words of the law, the blessing and the curse, according to all that is written in the book of the law.
Jos 8:35; There was not a word of all that Moses had commanded which Joshua did not read before all the assembly of Israel with the women and the little ones and the foreigners who were living among them.

Gentiles were under the law.

Exod 12:43; The LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "This is the ordinance of the Passover: no foreigner is to eat of it;
Exod 12:44; but every man's slave purchased with money, after you have circumcised him, then he may eat of it.
Exod 12:45; "A foreigner or a hired servant shall not eat of it.

Gentiles were under the law

Exod 12:48; "But if a foreigner sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person may eat of it.
Exod 12:49; "The same law shall apply to the native as to the gentile who sojourns among you."

Gentiles were under the law.

Acts 15:3; Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren.
Acts 15:5; But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses."

The Pharisee knew the law of Moses, they knew Gentiles had to be circumcised to be converted to Judaism. Gentiles were under the law.

Also, virtually all of the 10 commandments are repeated in the epistles of Paul in his letters to the Gentiles (Paul calls himself the apostle to the Gentiles) this would include Ephesus, Corinth, Galatia, and Colossae.

Paul had Timothy (a Greek) circumcised (not because Jesus required it) but because it satisfied the Jews (who knew it was required under the law).

Gentiles were under the law.

What is the opposite of the law? Lawlessness.
Matt 13:41; "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

It says Jesus will gather these people right from his own kingdom.

 

[DHC]

You said the only sin is unbelief. Which is it? Obeying the law or unbelief? Or are there other sins we can commit besides unbelief?
The law isn't the same thing as the commandments. The terms are sometimes used inter changeably, but they don't always mean the same thing.

1 Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
Matt 19:17; And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into eternal life, keep the commandments."
1 Cor 7:19; Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Hello B-A-C.

The ten commandments are 'the law' B-A-C, the old covenant.

Gentiles were never included in the old covenant law.

So Gentiles were never UNDER the ten commandments B-A-C.

I will provide the verses that prove the statements above if you wish B-A-C.

Let's examine the use of an old covenant law in the New Testament.

First the old testament law given to physical Israel (Exodus 20)

Exodus 20:15
Thou shall not steal. (the modern translation, 'you will not steal').

Now for the observed usage of this commandment (law) in the New Testatament.

Ephesians 4:28
He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with
his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one
who has need.

Well B-A-C I find it very interesting that sharing is the real instruction here.
As a Christian if you stopped stealing what use would that be for the church?

I would highly regard someone who was kind and generous. Now that is a
true Christian, the fruit of the spirit is evident for all to see. Talk about the
works of righteousness. James would have been over joyed with that
work of sharing.

Obedience to the commandment of itself is more likely to produce a self
righteous attitude (pharisees). Besides in the flesh it is impossible to obey
the written law anyway. Laboring for the sake of others far surpasses the
fleshly legalism of the commandment.

In generosity to others we have works in abundance. Not works of the law but
good works that arise from the Holy Spirit. Ultimately we are instructed to
attain a purity of love which is the goal of all Christian instruction.
Without love your faith is dead, useless, no works. Since when do the
ten commandments produce works???

Avoiding the sin of theft is not love B-A-C. Even non Christians might obey
that command to some degree. Obeying the commandment is not a fruit of the Spirit.
Kindness is a fruit of the Spirit and kindness is eternal.

You asked about unbelief B-A-C.

There is no greater sin than unbelief in Jesus.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

1 John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him:
and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Believing in Jesus is believing the Gospel. No one who believes in Jesus
does sin, for the real sin is the rejection of the Christ. Your great work
is to believe in Jesus.

There is only one condition placed upon a Christian, LOVE from a pure
heart. The purity of heart is the belief in Jesus, holding the testimony till the end.
Faith and love is the absolute summary of the New Testament.

You quoted the following;

1 Cor 7:19; Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing,
but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Circumcision means you are married to the law, it is legal obedience.
Circumcision is the entry requirement for the old covenant.
The circumcised are the Jews not the Gentiles B-A-C.
The ten commandments are the old covenant and are obsolete.

What really matters?

The commandment of God is to believe in Jesus and love from a pure heart!!!

 

[Barny]

What does acts of self righteousness have to do with the commandments? If we can follow the commandments 100%, then we have something to boast about. ( Rom 4:2; )

The 10 commandments are the law of righteousness (aka law of sin and death). They are the ministry of condemnation/death, written on tablets of stone (2Cor 3:7) that was done away with. And the law is how the rebellious seek to attain self-righteousness, by works. Such do not submit themselves to the righteousness of God.

There are 2 ways to attain righteousness.
1: Perfect obedience/works of the law.
Or
2: Righteousness by faith (Rom 4:5).

Where the legalists go wrong is when they proclaim Christians are unrighteous based on their failure to keep the law perfectly.
In doing this the legalists are rejecting righteousness by faith in their efforts to prove righteousness by perfect obedience to the law.

Consider your quote below.

at the moment of salvation we are clean and spotless. Still we can get dirty again..

You claim that we're clean/spotless at the moment we receive Christ, but then we're immediately dirty again afterwards because we fail to obey the law perfectly. It seems that you see no difference between the OT and the NT message. And this answers your question "What does acts of self righteousness have to do with the commandments?" You appear to be judging righteousness by works of the law and unless someone has perfect obedience to the law then you claim they're unrighteous and dirty, in spite of the fact that believers abide in Christ.

I suggest nobody should call unclean what God has cleansed. Christians abide in Christ (1John 3:6) and in him there is no sin (1John 3:5). To say that a washed believer is dirty with sin is like accusing Jesus of sin. To say a believer is unrighteous is like saying Jesus is unrighteous.

Our life is hid with Christ in God (Col 3:3).
We are complete in him, Col 2:10.
Why deny our standing in Christ by saying we're dirty/unrighteous when we fail to obey the law perfectly.

As for our physical behavior/lifestyle that you focus so much upon that you want to judge our righteousness by it, we see that Christians love one another. And being that we're each at different stages of growth and each facing our own unique circumstances, we will see varying displays of love. One important display of love is going to be showing the same love/grace towards each other as God showed to us. Therefore we forgive 7x70, just as we also are forgiven for our weakness/failures 7x70.

 

[B-A-C]

The 10 commandments are the law of righteousness (aka law of sin and death). They are the ministry of condemnation/death, written on tablets of stone (2 Cor 3:7 that was done away with. And the law is how the rebellious seek to attain self-righteousness, by works. Such do not submit themselves to the righteousness of God.

There are 2 ways to attain righteousness.
1: Perfect obedience/works of the law.
Or
2: Righteousness by faith (Rom 4:5).

First the law was never done away with, only the penalty for not obeying the law. ( death )
Matt 5:17; "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Rom 3:31; Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Rom 7:12; So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

1 Tim 1:8; But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,

The only trouble with the law, is that none of us can keep it 100%, and the wages of sin is death.

The righteousness by faith you mention, is faith that Jesus grace covers our sins. Which is totally different from saying we have no sin.
1 Jn 1:8; If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

 

[B-A-C]

I suggest nobody should call unclean what God has cleansed. Christians abide in Christ (1 John 3:6 and in him there is no sin (1 John 3:5. To say that a washed believer is dirty with sin is like accusing Jesus of sin. To say a believer is unrighteous is like saying Jesus is unrighteous.

No one is calling what God has cleaned unclean anymore than I am calling a car gone through the car wash dirty. But both can get dirty again.
John 13:10; Jesus *said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you."
1 Jn 1:9; If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I'm not saying we are unrighteous in God's eyes at all. What I'm saying is the blood and grace of Jesus cover us when we do sin.
1 Jn 2:1; My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

 

[B-A-C]

One important display of love is going to be showing the same love/grace towards each other as God showed to us. Therefore we forgive 7x70, just as we also are forgiven for our weakness/failures 7x70.

Ahhh... but loving one another is a commandment. Forgiving one another is a commandment. It seems you are advocating the commandments.

Calling the commandments dirty is like calling Jesus/God dirty.
John 1:1; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2; He was in the beginning with God.

 

[Barny]

First the law was never done away with, only the penalty for not obeying the law. ( death )

I've never found anyone who can support with scripture, this view that only the penalty of death was done away with.

Now note what scripture says about the law being done away with.
2Cor 3:7-11, uses the words "done away" in describing the law (ministry of condemnation/death).
2Cor 3:7-11
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Rom 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Gal 3:24-25
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Matt 5:17; "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill

.

The law is not abolished. But as a means of determining our righteousness, it has ended (Rom 10:4, Gal 4:25, 2Cor 3:7-11.)
Christ fulfilled the law for us.

Rom 3:31; Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

We establish the law by submitting to God's righteousness. We believe on Jesus, who fulfilled the law for us. Now that we're one spirit with the Lord we are made partakers of Christ (Heb 3:14.) with his holiness/righteousness/perfection. We are complete in him, Col 2:10.

Rom 7:12; So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Agreed.

1 Tim 1:8; But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,

Agreed

The only trouble with the law, is that none of us can keep it 100%, and the wages of sin is death

.

True, without perfect obedience to the law then you'll be judged as guilty of all the law (James 2:10.) and the wages of sin is death.

The righteousness by faith you mention, is faith that Jesus grace covers our sins. Which is totally different from saying we have no sin.
1 Jn 1:8; If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

It's God who says that sin has ended for believers (1John 3:9, 1Pet 4:1, Rom 6:7,).

You quote 1John 1:8 out of context. If you read 1John 1 from the beginning you'll see it's evangelical context as it bears witness and declares eternal life to others so that they also may have fellowship with the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[Barny]

No one is calling what God has cleaned unclean anymore than I am calling a car gone through the car wash dirty. But both can get dirty again.
John 13:10; Jesus *said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you."
1 Jn 1:9; If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I'm not saying we are unrighteous in God's eyes at all. What I'm saying is the blood and grace of Jesus cover us when we do sin.
1 Jn 2:1; My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

It's good to hear you say that you're not calling Christians unrighteous.

However, the verses from 1John that you quote are referring to when we first come to Christ for the forgiveness of sin.

Remember, it's the sin of unbelief in Jesus that the world is convicted of, John 16:9.

 

[Barny]

Ahhh... but loving one another is a commandment. Forgiving one another is a commandment. It seems you are advocating the commandments

.

We keep his commandments as described in 1John 3:22,23
1: Believe on Jesus.
2: Love one another (which includes forgiving 7x70)

Calling the commandments dirty is like calling Jesus/God dirty.
John 1:1; In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2; He was in the beginning with God.

If you recall from our previous discussions, I had quoted Rom 7:12 describing the law is good, just and holy. I had never said the law/10 commandments is dirty.
Instead, I said that as a means of attaining righteousness, it has ended.