I need more scriptures which back up that this is not correct. For example you are saved, and believe in lord your saviour, go to church, read the bible but carry on living a habitual homosexual lifetsyle, sex out of wedlock, addiction to porn, drugs, alcohol, and just other sinful things that are forbidden.Are you still saved?
once saved, always saved?
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This subject has been dialogues up, down, and every wasy possible ! You might start with an open mind and real John 10.
There is no where that Scripture teaches a lifestyle of repeating sexual sins is acceptable, and other sinful lifestyles as well. Faith that falters had a flaw in it from the first. We do not earn salvation, it is by grace, by faith in Jesus and in Jesus alone.
I believe the Bible teaches eternal security of the believer. Surrendering to Jesus Christ them becoming a follower of Jesus Christ. Genuine Christians have a lifetime of confessings sin's and repenting, learning to be a follower. A born agin believer may have a period of backsliding, but confessing of sin and repentence always happen. David is a great example of his walk with the Lord. David did reall;y unbelieveable sin, adultry, murder, and he had to be awakened by his friend. I find David a example of how everlasting unconditional love the Lord has for His own.
If we take that we can loose our salvation then Hebrews chapter 6 says we can never go back to salvation. Genuine state of salvation is not held together by us, God holds us in His hand and nothing can pluck us out of His secure hand, holding us. Only someone who was still lost, that looks as if they are saved, and when they have seen the Lords grace and mercy and His love can just walk away. They were enlightened but never saved. They may give the look and outwardly seem like genuine christians, but they are not. Don't be fooled by look a like false christians. Looks are very close to real, but they are phoney or the proof would be they stayed in Jesus Christ. There are $ 100.00 bills that only an expert can tell if it's real, Jesus is the expert not us. Blessings
farout
I can't be the only person who's been shown what's in hell waiting for me if i don't repent.
so no, i don't believe in eternal security, at all.
that said, its not like you're not going to know you stopped running the race.
Puddleglum
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The Roman Catholic priest who did all them evil things in history, must of been saved as well. should not bag them lot do you think ?
Hekuran
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Not sure that the once saved always saved debate has much to say about cases like this. Those like farout who say that salvation cannot be lost - Jesus will always complete his work - would point to passages such as the parable of the sower (Matthew 13) and say that even they had the appearance of receiving the gospel and say that it never really took root.
Others will say that the person was saved, but then slipped away.
The Scriptures are perfectly clear and consistent that those who continue in sin will not inherit the kingdom. See the warning at the end of the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 7) "‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, “Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?” Then I will tell them plainly, “I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!”"
One thing I think that the church could improve on is to emphasise discipleship more. If conversion (say this prayer of repentance and really mean it sincerely) is preached as an end point rather than as the beginning of a life of discipleship then we'll keep running up against this trouble.
Jesus said "No one can snatch them from my hand" He never said thet cannot chose to walk out.
If one does not believe eternal security, will it send them to hell?
If one does not believe eternal security, are they not more apt to live a life more aware of sin?
If I surrender my heart to Christ and live the life He instructed me to live; does it matter which way I believe?
I can give scripture that appears to support both arguments. The important thing is to be saved and live it, then I will see you in heaven regardless of which way you believe.
If one does not believe eternal security, will it send them to hell?
If one does not believe eternal security, are they not more apt to live a life more aware of sin?
If I surrender my heart to Christ and live the life He instructed me to live; does it matter which way I believe?
I can give scripture that appears to support both arguments. The important thing is to be saved and live it, then I will see you in heaven regardless of which way you believe.
The Holy Spirit is "sealed" in us, the Holy Spirit does not leave us. The holding power of our soul to be kept in the security of our salvation is not ours to keep secure. The Holy Spirit is the convictor of sin's and the Holy Spirit can not lie, or leave us. Never does mankind have the ability to save himself or to keep his eternal security of his salvation. We do have the will to surrender or reject what Jesus, but even then Jesus gives us the faith to grow in our maturity. But we have the will power to grow and mature or remain a baby in our faith.
When we say we can change our mind about staying with our salvation, then we are saying we have the power to remove our spirit from God. In John 10:27-29 Jesus said twice once in 28 and 29 that no "one can snatch" your soul out of His hand. If there were any way's for even the slightest escape clause, or someone (even if you personally) could forcefully remove your spirit, by what Jesus said once you are genually saved you are secure forever.
Many ask what if a person has made a lifestyle of some really abhorrent sin, and they were once really totally sold out for Jesus and did all kinds of things that showed he was a Christian. In such a case is the "once saved always saved" mean this person will go to heaven? Matthew 13;1-23 goes into great detail elaborating about the meaning of the seeds being sowed on four types of soil. Only one of the four types of soil grew and produced a crop. Jesus used these parables to show how some respond to the WORD, Good News of Jesus Christ. Each of the four places the seeds went and Jesus gave a real life explaination for each kind of soil and related them to people.
Hebrews 6:1-8 explains that those who were exposed to the Holy Spirit pleading for them to surrender to Jesus Christ. However they were unwilling to make a clean brake and fully surrender to Jesus Christ. No matter how well people behave those who are not genuinely born again, they still reject Jesus Christ. This complete passage says if it were possible for those who appeared to be Christians, and for the sake of "what if's" if they were really christians, and they had "fallen away" that it would be impossible to renew themself's back to Jesus Christ. This is a real problem for those who say you can be saved one day and lost the next, and once again saved the next day. To say we can extract or desolve our salvation from the Master's holding power of our salvation, are saying we can pluck ourself out of His hand. This self removal or plucking ourself out of the LORD's hand are saying John 10: 27-29 does not mean what it clearly say. "NO ONE CAN SNATCH OUT OF MY HAND" NO ONE MEANS,NO ONE ! Not even you !
I hope this give those who think you can loose your salvation something to reconsider. FAITH THAT FALTERS HAD A FLAW IN IT FROM THE FIRST PLACE. Blessings.
farout
When we say we can change our mind about staying with our salvation, then we are saying we have the power to remove our spirit from God. In John 10:27-29 Jesus said twice once in 28 and 29 that no "one can snatch" your soul out of His hand. If there were any way's for even the slightest escape clause, or someone (even if you personally) could forcefully remove your spirit, by what Jesus said once you are genually saved you are secure forever.
Many ask what if a person has made a lifestyle of some really abhorrent sin, and they were once really totally sold out for Jesus and did all kinds of things that showed he was a Christian. In such a case is the "once saved always saved" mean this person will go to heaven? Matthew 13;1-23 goes into great detail elaborating about the meaning of the seeds being sowed on four types of soil. Only one of the four types of soil grew and produced a crop. Jesus used these parables to show how some respond to the WORD, Good News of Jesus Christ. Each of the four places the seeds went and Jesus gave a real life explaination for each kind of soil and related them to people.
Hebrews 6:1-8 explains that those who were exposed to the Holy Spirit pleading for them to surrender to Jesus Christ. However they were unwilling to make a clean brake and fully surrender to Jesus Christ. No matter how well people behave those who are not genuinely born again, they still reject Jesus Christ. This complete passage says if it were possible for those who appeared to be Christians, and for the sake of "what if's" if they were really christians, and they had "fallen away" that it would be impossible to renew themself's back to Jesus Christ. This is a real problem for those who say you can be saved one day and lost the next, and once again saved the next day. To say we can extract or desolve our salvation from the Master's holding power of our salvation, are saying we can pluck ourself out of His hand. This self removal or plucking ourself out of the LORD's hand are saying John 10: 27-29 does not mean what it clearly say. "NO ONE CAN SNATCH OUT OF MY HAND" NO ONE MEANS,NO ONE ! Not even you !
I hope this give those who think you can loose your salvation something to reconsider. FAITH THAT FALTERS HAD A FLAW IN IT FROM THE FIRST PLACE. Blessings.
farout
If one does not believe eternal security, will it send them to hell?
If one does not believe eternal security, are they not more apt to live a life more aware of sin?
If I surrender my heart to Christ and live the life He instructed me to live; does it matter which way I believe?
I can give scripture that appears to support both arguments. The important thing is to be saved and live it, then I will see you in heaven regardless of which way you believe.<!-- google_ad_section_end -->
sorry, but there's at least once case in the old testament where a prophet of God was sent to challenge some false prophets.
one of them remarked upon realizing his error "how did the Spirit of God go from me to speak to you?!" also, the rest of that chapter is rather disturbing because a similar prophecy has been spoke to the same effect, that God will strike the false shepherds but not before putting a lying and defiling spirit in their mouths.
1Kings 22:24
also, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are two separate people. receiving the Holy Spirit is the same as being married to a person, who you receive, in your physical body, which is, the temple of the Lord. when the Holy Spirit tells you to lay hands on someone and heal them... this is in addition to Jesus who may be directing your life right now.
so when you sin and you feel like crap.. but neither Jesus or the Holy Spirit ask you why... i'll urge you to pray about who it is that makes you feel that way.
i would suggest that it is your own spirit that convicts you and makes you feel defiled when you sin.
Jesus or the Holy Spirit will likely challenge you about it later.
now for the purposes of full disclosure... Jesus talks to me a lot. he also sends other spirits who sometimes don't give me their names to speak to me, and the archangel Michael told me something on the Sabbath couple weeks back. the Holy Spirit had enough of me a while ago, so that prophetic gift of miraculous healing that i didn't use because i had no faith and some other reasons won't be available until i fix myself, but it is true that He never left, but it does feel like it...
i have no doubt that most of God's sheep in america never receive the Holy Spirit, but i will refrain from casting judgement on western churches.
I am not permitted to simply walk up to someone who i know the Lord knows and point out Luke 11:13 or similar passages because i feel like it. they have to ask.
"“Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?”"
funny you mention this Hekuran because the thought crossed my mind on sunday at 10 am pacific time
If someone prophecies in Jesus name, but he is a false prophet, but the sheep have enough faith and God makes it happen for their sake, what then?
can the other gifts be used in the same manner?
i would suggest it is possible.
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Hello Eldon, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same people. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus:
2 Cor 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
In John 14:17 Jesus said that the disciples knew the Holy Spirit because they knew Him.
Jesus said He would come back as the comforter, the Spirit:
John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
To lose salvation would require losing the seal of the Holy Spirit which is impossible. The believer's spirit and the Spirit of Jesus has become one spirit:
1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
~ If you can lose salvation, then you never truly had it in the first place. ~
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Amen. It's amazing the number of folk who believe their will and their strength and their failures are stronger than God's power to save and keep.
This was David's experience, who although committed adultery and murder, he could not escape God's presence, He had to confess, and his fellowship with God was restored
Psalm 139 Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?
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Puddleglum
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Rubbish ! that's all just worldly boasting. as no one has the say, that is up to the Lord him self only and that's a fact.
I think it's a sin to boast of such and one gets weakened in the spirit, if you think that way and they become ignorant of the facts and it can surly be leading many people astray. i see it all time and time again, it's like the parable of the sower.
How many people do i know who were faithful once and now are only a husk and so full in love of the worldly that they look down on all that was about Christ.
I tell you that Satan lie's in wait ! at every opportunity to deceive you in any way possable even the elite. he has the power to rob you of you salvation. as he even had a go at Jesus Christ you know ! so why not you ! do you think you are above Christ.
And some get upset because they want someone to tell them that they are saved. now i think i am ? but i don't go around boasting it, as i think that's just foolishness. The Bible never says you are saved as such anywhere DOES IT ! in them words ?
One comes to me and says, am i saved Sir Puddelglum ? how would i know ! really.
The options are:
a) once saved always saved
b) once saved never saved
c) once saved sometimes saved
Which is it?
Option a) , always saved - the Holy Spirit comes to make permanent home and dwelling in you. He sets up permanent address and He owns the house.
Option b),never saved - the Holy Spirit was not allowed in the house, ever
Option c) sometimes saved - the Holy Spirit stays in for a while and then sometimes goes out again, your body is not really a temple/home for the Holy Spirit , it's a rental or a hotel. He lives in your being as a guest but it doesn't belong to Him.
a) once saved always saved
b) once saved never saved
c) once saved sometimes saved
Which is it?
Option a) , always saved - the Holy Spirit comes to make permanent home and dwelling in you. He sets up permanent address and He owns the house.
Option b),never saved - the Holy Spirit was not allowed in the house, ever
Option c) sometimes saved - the Holy Spirit stays in for a while and then sometimes goes out again, your body is not really a temple/home for the Holy Spirit , it's a rental or a hotel. He lives in your being as a guest but it doesn't belong to Him.
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Puddleglum
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One only can grow in the Lord or fall away.
Now one can give you the Holy Spirit that only comes from the Lord. so we must be in tune to receive.
Once we start with the worldly works it goes no where.
The Holy Spirit can come on you and dwell in you but old mate Satan is hard work to to deal with as he will never give up never. and if you think you have won their is always the next day to do battle. Satan comes and again and again he never gives up and if one thinks he has won, you have lost.
Satan is very cunning and the most cunning of all.
What, exactly, are you refering to as rubish?
I boasted of nothing in my post.
Let me put this plain and simple........
Regardless of if I believe OSAS or do not, if I am born again and live my life according to the Spirit, I am going to heaven. That is based on the authority of God's Word.
You state no one has the say but the Lord........He has said it in His Word.
Are you saying, you THINK you are saved? According to the Bible, you can KNOW you are saved.
DutchChristian
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Do not be deceived!
OSAS is a sneaky covert LIE of the devil!
OSAS = Slippery slope into more lasviciousness
Genesis 2:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 3:
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (<--- hear the serpent speak a OSAS LIE)
Ezekiel 18:
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
BUT
1 John 1:
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
King David lost his salvation when he outright murdered and was in adultery (at that time) but by Gods Grace he repented and was cleansed again!
Do not listen to: itching ear preaching feal good osas: "no matter what you do" "feel good sin all you want" "it doesn't matter as your future sins supposedly are already forgiven in advance" "Gods Grace is unlimited even if ye do not repent" LIE!
2 Corinthians 7:
1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Perseverance of the saints is also a form of OSAS (= if saved always saved) and is false too!, as so many things can happen on your walk that could catch you off-guard! Be sure that your salvation is guaranteed by God if / as long as ye continue abiding in Him / keep walking with Him / endure till the end. If we slip up God is Merciful yes! But don't you walk away from it YOURSELF (it will be all yourself to blame and not God!) by for instance: taking the mark of the beast, denying The Lord Jesus Christ, following and being lead away after the error of the wicked, apostacize, falling from grace, blaspheme the Holy Ghost, if you forgive not others, loving this present world and be caught up by it, etc God forbid! and so you better be real careful!
God is Merciful yes! but don't you mock Him!
Galatians 6:
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
OSAS is a sneaky covert LIE of the devil!
OSAS = Slippery slope into more lasviciousness
Genesis 2:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 3:
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: (<--- hear the serpent speak a OSAS LIE)
Ezekiel 18:
4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
BUT
1 John 1:
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
King David lost his salvation when he outright murdered and was in adultery (at that time) but by Gods Grace he repented and was cleansed again!
Do not listen to: itching ear preaching feal good osas: "no matter what you do" "feel good sin all you want" "it doesn't matter as your future sins supposedly are already forgiven in advance" "Gods Grace is unlimited even if ye do not repent" LIE!
2 Corinthians 7:
1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
Perseverance of the saints is also a form of OSAS (= if saved always saved) and is false too!, as so many things can happen on your walk that could catch you off-guard! Be sure that your salvation is guaranteed by God if / as long as ye continue abiding in Him / keep walking with Him / endure till the end. If we slip up God is Merciful yes! But don't you walk away from it YOURSELF (it will be all yourself to blame and not God!) by for instance: taking the mark of the beast, denying The Lord Jesus Christ, following and being lead away after the error of the wicked, apostacize, falling from grace, blaspheme the Holy Ghost, if you forgive not others, loving this present world and be caught up by it, etc God forbid! and so you better be real careful!
God is Merciful yes! but don't you mock Him!
Galatians 6:
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
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Hekuran
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@DutchChristian, you are conflating two sets of teaching. Many Christians hold that it is not possible for a person to lose their salvation. It is a theological position that has deep roots in scripture and comes from a high view of God's work and purposes. The other teaching - God's grace means that sinfulness is unimportant - does not have such an honorable history and has no backing in scripture.
I would be very surprised if anyone on this forum who holds to OSAS uses that belief as a licence for immorality. Maybe you could prove me wrong?
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Speaking from my life....my meeting Him.........resulted in following Him............. a long time back now. "Where can we go......Thou alone hast the words of eternal life" ..... Peter the Apostle (bible)
God is merciful......... we all,....you and I together......... rejoice in His mercy.... Thank you Jesus for your Love and Mercy towards us.
We cannot put a fine point on this subject, and say that/this is it. Surely not. Who are we?
Scriptures have been quoted........I have enjoyed the read. ...... Be blessed dear friends....and thankyou. Without the scriptures... the Church would flounder. Thank God for His word.
Speaking from my heart...the vital, absolutely necessity, most paramount thing.......is to meet Him....Meet Jesus.
We all have read about Paul on the road to Damascus? It was not just a historic event, in the annuls of Christianity....These things were written/recorded for our learning and admonition..
1 Cor.10:11.
All must make an effort to meet Him. Not in the way that Paul did........that was unique, he was being set apart for somthing special.
I am the WAY....said Jesus, the TRUTH and the Life..........we must meet Him. Having met Him long ago..........I remain. Some forsake...."Demas hath forsaken me, having loved the world"
2 Ti 4:10
God is merciful......... we all,....you and I together......... rejoice in His mercy.... Thank you Jesus for your Love and Mercy towards us.
We cannot put a fine point on this subject, and say that/this is it. Surely not. Who are we?
Scriptures have been quoted........I have enjoyed the read. ...... Be blessed dear friends....and thankyou. Without the scriptures... the Church would flounder. Thank God for His word.
Speaking from my heart...the vital, absolutely necessity, most paramount thing.......is to meet Him....Meet Jesus.
We all have read about Paul on the road to Damascus? It was not just a historic event, in the annuls of Christianity....These things were written/recorded for our learning and admonition..
1 Cor.10:11.
All must make an effort to meet Him. Not in the way that Paul did........that was unique, he was being set apart for somthing special.
I am the WAY....said Jesus, the TRUTH and the Life..........we must meet Him. Having met Him long ago..........I remain. Some forsake...."Demas hath forsaken me, having loved the world"
2 Ti 4:10
Puddleglum
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Like Dutch says, and we can walk away or drift slowly away and miss lead due to our sinful nature.
Dear revbrad i say nothing of you your self but of the doctrine of OSAS.
According to the Spirit i know i am saved but i don't go around stating it, as satan would love that i boast.
I am not on about individuals but as christian people in whole, don't be misled into thinking you are saved as a one time advent. is that wrong ? i see it all the time and it breeds ignorance. and i am not talking of you at all dear revbrad but the subject.
Christ never said OSAS he could of said so easily but he did not.
The way i see it most people love OSAS because it put their fears to rest and they rebel thinking that one is trying to drag them down but in fact we are trying to lift them, up for crying out loud.
Could OSAS be a form of idol, as i have seen people push it full on and just runaround like a chook with it's head choped off.
Brad: Question 1. No it will not send anyone to hell. Only those who reject Christ go there. 2. It matters neither either way. 3. No it only means that you understand Scripture differently. This issue does not disfellowship in any way what so ever. I used to think that I could support either side until I did some very long studying on the subject.
This subject should not cause either way of thinking give reason to argue or hurt feelings. Blessings,
farout.
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