Matthew 12:40

[judge not]

Hello Judge not, there is no such thing as absolute proof in regards to dates concerning this subject.

There appears to be a flaw in the timing utilized in your argument.

Let's assume your hypothesis that 31AD is correct for the sake of your argument, judge not.

Hence, thursday would be a sabbath day, no work is done by the Jews, household confinement.

If Jesus was buried on wednesday preceeding thursday, the sabbath, then Jesus rises on the
third day, Friday. Jesus cannot be laid to rest at any time on Wednesday otherwise Jesus
rises on Friday.

1 Corinthians 15:4
and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

Jesus is raised on the third day, not after the third day.

I do require you to furnish the scripture that supports a resurrection on the fourth day.

I consider Jesus's words as absolute proof on a subject versus the speculations and miscalculations of men.
Jesus defined what a day and a night represented.

Maybe on a personal level it would make sense.
If I left you on Wednesday evening somewhere around 6 pm and said meet me back here exactly in 3 days. Would you show up on Friday morning. I know I wouldn't be there until Saturday at 6 pm 3 days later.

 

[DHC]

I consider Jesus's words as absolute proof on a subject versus the speculations and miscalculations of men.
Jesus defined what a day and a night represented.

Maybe on a personal level it would make sense.
If I left you on Wednesday evening somewhere around 6 pm and said meet me back here exactly in 3 days. Would you show up on Friday morning. I know I wouldn't be there until Saturday at 6 pm 3 days later.

Hello Judge not.

I agree that mankind is excellent at straining out gnats and swallowing camels.

It should also be noted that Jesus rose on the third day, not after three days.

If we were together on wednesday and you said "I will meet you on the third day".
Then I would count inclusive, wednesday, thursday, and meet you on friday.
Exclusive counting would not include the current day.

Matthew 16:21
...and be raised up on the third day.

Matthew 17:23
...and He will be raised on the third day.

Matthew 20:19
...and on the third day He will be raised up.

Matthew 27:64
Therefore, give orders for the grave to be made secure until the third day.

Luke 9:22
...and be killed and be raised up on the third day.

Luke 13:22
...today and tomorrow, and the third day I reach My goal.

Luke 18:33
...they will kill Him; and the third day He will rise again.

Acts 10:40
GOD RAISED HIM UP ON THE THIRD DAY AND GRANTED THAT HE BECAME VISIBLE.

 

[james1523]

There are more verses that say on the third day than after the third day.

 

[judge not]

DHC

In keeping with the Messianic sign of 3 days and 3 nights rising on late Saturday at the same time as He was buried late Wednesday say around 6 or 7pm would still be on the third day. Sunday morning would be after 3 days.

It's a stretch of the imagination to believe that you would count the end of a day as your whole first day. Normally that would be your starting point. If we met on Thursday evening at 7pm from Wednesday evening at 7pm wouldn't that be just counted as 1 day apart given the time fix.
Jesus said a complete day consisted of 12 hours of daylight and 12 hours of darkness. Some how you evolved that into 2 days.

 

[bgsda]

Hello all Question the 7th day Sabbath was first created during Creation Gen 2:1-3, no sin has entered this world yet, so its logically correct to say this was and is perfect right? So why would God want to change something that is perfect?

 

[DHC]

DHC
In keeping with the Messianic sign of 3 days and 3 nights rising on late Saturday at the same time as He was buried late Wednesday say around 6 or 7pm would still be on the third day. Sunday morning would be after 3 days.
It's a stretch of the imagination to believe that you would count the end of a day as your whole first day. Normally that would be your starting point. If we met on Thursday evening at 7pm from Wednesday evening at 7pm wouldn't that be just counted as 1 day apart given the time fix.
Jesus said a complete day consisted of 12 hours of daylight and 12 hours of darkness. Some how you evolved that into 2 days.

Hello Judge not.

I am currently knee deep in the book of Leviticus, this involves some research on two
apparently contradictory interpretations on two important verses! Will get back to you
shortly regarding this issue of the feast of the unleavened bread, etc.

 

[DHC]

Hello all Question the 7th day Sabbath was first created during Creation Gen 2:1-3, no sin has entered this world yet, so its logically correct to say this was and is perfect right? So why would God want to change something that is perfect?

Hello bgsda.

God did not specify that the creation was perfect, only good.

 

[DHC]

A day in the life of a Hebrew was from sunset to sunset that was 1 day for them, just as God described a day as the evening(the night part) and the morning(the light part) was a day in Genesis during the creation period. Day and night = 1 day.

The only proof that Jesus gave that He was the Messiah was the precise duration that He would be in the ground just as Jonah was in the whale for three days and three nights
From the gospels and historians we see that there was a high Sabbath on the Thursday of crucifixion week. It was an annual Sabbath not the regular Saturday weekly Sabbath.
Late Wednesday afternoon burial would fit with a three day and three night calculation ending on Late Saturday afternoon when the resurrection occurred taking in the 2 preparation days and the fact that Jesus had already risen when people showed up early Sunday morning while it was still dark.That scenario would fulfill Jesus prophecy.

Hello Judge not.

I was looking at an earlier post of yours, the one above.

When I noticed that you specified a "sabbath" which according
to your sources, occurred on a thursday. Firstly a "sabbath" is a
seventh day, as I understand it, so logically a seventh day cannot
occur on any other day than the seventh day itself. Thus I did some
research on this topic, namely midweek sabbaths, to understand why
you suggested this idea in your post. I found it puzzling!

What I discovered is rather interesting to say the least. Apparently
in the time of Jesus Christ there was in fact a number of controversies
between the Pharisees and Sadducees. You would be aware that they
viewed the world and scripture differently, they often erupted in
arguments over many matters. Different traditions, different beliefs,
and different interpretations of the scripture. Sound familiar!

So Judge not, there were two views regarding, the week of unleavened
bread and the first and last day of this festival week. In your post you
specified that the thursday was the High Sabbath! This is the first day
of the week of the festival of unleavened bread.

This viewpoint you expressed is held by the pharisees, that there are
two sabbaths, i.e., the first and last day of the unleavened festival week.
You have been taught to see two sabbaths that are not weekly sabbaths
but special high sabbaths, as your post states.

Another view is the sadducee interpretation. They do not see the first
and last days of this festival week as sabbaths. They see these two days as rest days
only. What I will do now is provide the scripture which is used by both groups.

Leviticus 23:6-8
Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.
On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.
But for seven days you shall present an offering by fire to the Lord.
On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.

So the verses above does not actually specify two sabbaths for the first and last
days of the week of unleavened bread. Only that they are rest days, no laborious
work. Here lies the difficulty Judge not, are they in fact sabbaths or just rest
days.

If these two days are not sabbaths then your theological ship sinks.
Namely because Jesus is not entombed for three days, thursday thru
saturday.

If these two days are sabbaths then you sail into the sunset justified.
Jesus is entombed for three full, 24 hour days.

What do you think of this so far Judge not, I need feedback.

 

[rstrats]

bgsda,

Do you know of an example as asked for in the OP?

 

[rstrats]

james1523,

re: "There are more verses that say on the third day than after the third day."


But there are 4 verses that say or indicate "after" 3 days. So those verses that say on the third day must really mean on the third day after the day of the crucifixion.

 

[judge not]

Hello Judge not.

I was looking at an earlier post of yours, the one above.

When I noticed that you specified a "sabbath" which according
to your sources, occurred on a thursday. Firstly a "sabbath" is a
seventh day, as I understand it, so logically a seventh day cannot
occur on any other day than the seventh day itself. Thus I did some
research on this topic, namely midweek sabbaths, to understand why
you suggested this idea in your post. I found it puzzling!

What I discovered is rather interesting to say the least. Apparently
in the time of Jesus Christ there was in fact a number of controversies
between the Pharisees and Sadducees. You would be aware that they
viewed the world and scripture differently, they often erupted in
arguments over many matters. Different traditions, different beliefs,
and different interpretations of the scripture. Sound familiar!

So Judge not, there were two views regarding, the week of unleavened
bread and the first and last day of this festival week. In your post you
specified that the thursday was the High Sabbath! This is the first day
of the week of the festival of unleavened bread.

This viewpoint you expressed is held by the pharisees, that there are
two sabbaths, i.e., the first and last day of the unleavened festival week.
You have been taught to see two sabbaths that are not weekly sabbaths
but special high sabbaths, as your post states.

Another view is the sadducee interpretation. They do not see the first
and last days of this festival week as sabbaths. They see these two days as rest days
only. What I will do now is provide the scripture which is used by both groups.

Leviticus 23:6-8
Then on the fifteenth day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the Lord; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread.
On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.
But for seven days you shall present an offering by fire to the Lord.
On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any laborious work.

So the verses above does not actually specify two sabbaths for the first and last
days of the week of unleavened bread. Only that they are rest days, no laborious
work. Here lies the difficulty Judge not, are they in fact sabbaths or just rest
days.

If these two days are not sabbaths then your theological ship sinks.
Namely because Jesus is not entombed for three days, thursday thru
saturday.

If these two days are sabbaths then you sail into the sunset justified.
Jesus is entombed for three full, 24 hour days.

What do you think of this so far Judge not, I need feedback.

Besides making the Sabbath for rest, God also revealed that the Sabbath is a day of worship
Leviticus 23:1-3 -concerning the weekly seventh day Sabbath it says it is a holy convocation -Holy convocations are sacred assemblies commanded by God for worship.
Besides the weekly Sabbath, God gave His people annual Holy day feast days Leviticus 23:4-44- These were also " holy convocations " and rest days, called High Sabbaths.
These special annual festivals had great significance because they revealed God's plan for humanity.
Jesus and the The Church of the first century celebrated and honored these Holy days-Acts 20:6,, Matt 26:2

 

[DHC]

Besides the weekly Sabbath, God gave His people annual Holy day feast days Leviticus 23:4-44- These were also " holy convocations " and rest days, called High Sabbaths.

Hello Judge not.

I agree that the text refers to these holy days as rest days.
I also agree that assemblies occur on these holy days.
I do not agree that the first and last days of U.L.B are sabbaths.
Since Leviticus 23:6-8 does not specify such.

A High sabbath would be the sabbath occurring within the days of ULB.

 

[judge not]

Hello Judge not.

I agree that the text refers to these holy days as rest days.
I also agree that assemblies occur on these holy days.
I do not agree that the first and last days of U.L.B are sabbaths.
Since Leviticus 23:6-8 does not specify such.

A High sabbath would be the sabbath occurring within the days of ULB.

The feast of Unleavened Bread was a seven day festival.
The first and last days of this week-long observance were specifically set apart as Holy Convocations-days devoted to rest and assembly for worship.
In Leviticus 23:7 " In the first day ye shall have a holy convocation ..." That is the first High Sabbath.(Thursday)
In the next verse 8 - "......In the seventh day(the last day of the feast) is an holy convocation." That is the second High Sabbath.(The Wednesday after Christ rose)
In between the 2 High Sabbaths was the regular weekly Sabbath..(The Saturday)The day I believe Christ rose.

You can Google that to the bank.

 

[james1523]

The feast of Unleavened Bread was a seven day festival.
The first and last days of this week-long observance were specifically set apart as Holy Convocations-days devoted to rest and assembly for worship.
In Leviticus 23:7 " In the first day ye shall have a holy convocation ..." That is the first High Sabbath.(Thursday)
In the next verse 8 - "......In the seventh day(the last day of the feast) is an holy convocation." That is the second High Sabbath.(The Wednesday after Christ rose)
In between the 2 High Sabbaths was the regular weekly Sabbath..(The Saturday)The day I believe Christ rose.

You can Google that to the bank.

If we believe Jesus was crucified on Wednesday then the passover meal must have occurred on Tuesday night which is impossible.
The Last Supper Jesus had with his disciples was a seder meal which occurs on the evening of the first or second days of the festival. This means the last supper was either a Wed night or a Thursday night. Placing the crucifixion (day after) on a Thursday or Friday, not a Wednesday.

Mark 15:42 says Jesus died before the Sabbath:
Mark 15:42 And when evening had come, since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath,

The Greek word for Preparation always refers to the day before the 7th day Sabbath (Saturday) and never any other rest day.

Further evidence that Jesus died on Friday, is that they rested on the 7th day Sabbath is obedience to the 10 commandments:

Luke 23:56 "Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment."

Further evidence against a Wednesday crucifixion is that they would not have waited more than 3 days to embalm or adorn his body with spices and perfumes.

And the biggest evidence of all that it is not a Wednesday crucifixion, is that according to the Jewish Calendar and the U.S. Naval Observatory Astronomical Applications Department, the 15th day of Nisan in 30 AD was Friday 7 April.
This places the last supper on Thursday night, and crucifixion on Friday.

 

[bgsda]

Sorry rstart,

I dont understand your question about OP.

 

[DHC]

The feast of Unleavened Bread was a seven day festival.
The first and last days of this week-long observance were specifically set apart as Holy Convocations-days devoted to rest and assembly for worship.
In Leviticus 23:7 " In the first day ye shall have a holy convocation ..." That is the first High Sabbath.(Thursday)
In the next verse 8 - "......In the seventh day(the last day of the feast) is an holy convocation." That is the second High Sabbath.(The Wednesday after Christ rose)
In between the 2 High Sabbaths was the regular weekly Sabbath..(The Saturday)The day I believe Christ rose.

You can Google that to the bank.

Hello Judge not.

The Jewish calendar is different to the calendar we use.

For example each day of the week in the era of the Roman Empire had
specific names. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,..., Saturday.

Israel did not have names for each day of their week, they identified
each specific day of the week by numerals. First day, second day, third day,
..., sabbath day.

Hence, the direct equivalent of the name saturday, our seventh day is the
Hebrew numbered day, sabbath.

So, if we have a movable celebration day similiar to the
Hebrew passover. It could fall say on Monday but the day
it falls on does not replace the name of the day itself.

Let's use a western holy day or holi-day if you prefer.
Any movable holiday or rest day that falls on a specific monthly
date say June 4th, will vary on which day it falls on every year.
Be it monday, tuesday, etc. So June the 4th if it falls on thursday
does not inherit the name thursday.

Hence, the Hebrew Holy Days are the same, if passover falls
on a tuesday, the holy day itself it is not called tuesday, that
is only the day on which it falls. So when the first day of the
passover occurs on wednesday or the Hebrew equivalent the
fourth day. It does not change its name to the day name. This
also is true of the first day of passover occurring on the fifth
Hebrew day (thursday), this will never be called the seventh
day because it is not the seventh day. Thursday is not a sabbath
never was and never will be. It cannot be a sabbath because
sabbath is saturday is the Hebrew seventh day.

You enforce the saturday or the Jewish sabbath day as the holy day,
but you will never be able to celebrate saturday on any other day.
In fact, to infer that you follow the sabbath is also incorrect.
Sabbath is a Jewish name for the seventh day, westerners
could only ever follow a Saturday worship. That is the western
name of the day. Precision is called for Judge not, I no longer
call you a sabbaritarian but a saturdayian. Why do you use
the Hebrew name for Saturday?

In our modern society we no longer have a sunday as a day
for gathering together. Many employment areas in society work
according to rotating shifts now. So western churches are starting to
adopt other service times to cater for the increasing numbers.
Friday night, Saturday night services occur now in the larger
churches, Sunday has seen its day in western churches.

 

[rstrats]

bgsda,

re: "I don't understand your question about OP."


I'm not aware that I had a question about the OP. What do you have in mind?

 

[james1523]

In our modern society we no longer have a sunday as a day
for gathering together. Many employment areas in society work
according to rotating shifts now. So western churches are starting to
adopt other service times to cater for the increasing numbers.
Friday night, Saturday night services occur now in the larger
churches, Sunday has seen its day in western churches.

I think it's sad that God has to work his schedule around man's, and not man's schedule around God's.
I think not having a full day of rest has contributed to mental health issues, breakup of marriages and families and general ungodliness in society.

 

[judge not]

If we believe Jesus was crucified on Wednesday then the passover meal must have occurred on Tuesday night which is impossible.
The Last Supper Jesus had with his disciples was a seder meal which occurs on the evening of the first or second days of the festival. This means the last supper was either a Wed night or a Thursday night. Placing the crucifixion (day after) on a Thursday or Friday, not a Wednesday.

Mark 15:42 says Jesus died before the Sabbath:
Mark 15:42 And when evening had come, since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day before the Sabbath,

The Greek word for Preparation always refers to the day before the 7th day Sabbath (Saturday) and never any other rest day.

Further evidence that Jesus died on Friday, is that they rested on the 7th day Sabbath is obedience to the 10 commandments:

Luke 23:56 "Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment."

Further evidence against a Wednesday crucifixion is that they would not have waited more than 3 days to embalm or adorn his body with spices and perfumes.

And the biggest evidence of all that it is not a Wednesday crucifixion, is that according to the Jewish Calendar and the U.S. Naval Observatory Astronomical Applications Department, the 15th day of Nisan in 30 AD was Friday 7 April.
This places the last supper on Thursday night, and crucifixion on Friday.

The Last Supper was held on the evening before on the 14th Tuesday evening-Wednesday daytime is still the 14th-which was the day Jesus was crucified. The Last Supper was not the same age old passover feast of lamb which was held on the evening of the 15th (Wed evening) and Thursday daytime, still the 15th was the High Sabbath of the 1st day of unleavened bread.

The women you speak of had no chance to prepare any spices or burial things on the Wed evening because of the haste and the High Sabbath(Thursday the 15th) was beginning and had to wait until the Friday preparation day before the weekly Sabbath. The preparation takes a good part of the day up to make the spices, so rest again and after the weekly Sabbath, early Sunday morning they brought the spices they made on Friday.but Jesus was already gone even before the sun rose.
Pagan influences loved the idea of a Sunday morning resurrection to fit with their persuasion.

It was 31 AD when Christ was crucified not the 30 AD.

But I don't understand why so many want to discredit the words of Jesus that the only sign He would give would be 3 days and 3 nights in the tomb.
A little part of 1 day and then a full day and then a little part of the morning of the third day would not fulfill that sign of Jesus' prophecy concerning His death and resurrection.
He made it clear so there would be no confusion on this. Yet here we are.

 

[judge not]

Hello Judge not.

The Jewish calendar is different to the calendar we use.

For example each day of the week in the era of the Roman Empire had
specific names. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,..., Saturday.

Israel did not have names for each day of their week, they identified
each specific day of the week by numerals. First day, second day, third day,
..., sabbath day.

Hence, the direct equivalent of the name saturday, our seventh day is the
Hebrew numbered day, sabbath.

So, if we have a movable celebration day similiar to the
Hebrew passover. It could fall say on Monday but the day
it falls on does not replace the name of the day itself.

Let's use a western holy day or holi-day if you prefer.
Any movable holiday or rest day that falls on a specific monthly
date say June 4th, will vary on which day it falls on every year.
Be it monday, tuesday, etc. So June the 4th if it falls on thursday
does not inherit the name thursday.

Hence, the Hebrew Holy Days are the same, if passover falls
on a tuesday, the holy day itself it is not called tuesday, that
is only the day on which it falls. So when the first day of the
passover occurs on wednesday or the Hebrew equivalent the
fourth day. It does not change its name to the day name. This
also is true of the first day of passover occurring on the fifth
Hebrew day (thursday), this will never be called the seventh
day because it is not the seventh day. Thursday is not a sabbath
never was and never will be. It cannot be a sabbath because
sabbath is saturday is the Hebrew seventh day.

You enforce the saturday or the Jewish sabbath day as the holy day,
but you will never be able to celebrate saturday on any other day.
In fact, to infer that you follow the sabbath is also incorrect.
Sabbath is a Jewish name for the seventh day, westerners
could only ever follow a Saturday worship. That is the western
name of the day. Precision is called for Judge not, I no longer
call you a sabbaritarian but a saturdayian. Why do you use
the Hebrew name for Saturday?

In our modern society we no longer have a sunday as a day
for gathering together. Many employment areas in society work
according to rotating shifts now. So western churches are starting to
adopt other service times to cater for the increasing numbers.
Friday night, Saturday night services occur now in the larger
churches, Sunday has seen its day in western churches.

In Leviticus 23:8 - With a movable day. an annual festival can begin on a different day every year, yes, but it still runs seven days long. When it says" in" the seventh day it is referring to it's numerical terminal. Usually when it's the weekly Sabbath it is referred to as " on " the seventh day.

The Sabbath was made for all of mankind not just the Jews or any other special people.

Men have been changing God's laws forever to suit their agenda. The truth will prevail.