Separation of Sheep and Goats

[CareGiver]

SEPARATION OF SHEEP AND GOATS


"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left (Matthew 25:31-33). The “sheep” are believers in the Son of Man Jesus Christ that were born of GOD and overcame the world to be seated at the right hand of GOD with Christ and blessed by GOD the Father as heirs of the Kingdom of GOD (Matthew 25:37). The “goats” are non-repentant sinners at the left hand of GOD, cursed into “everlasting fire” prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41).

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me’ (Matthew 25:34-36). The “righteous” at the right hand of GOD do righteousness (good works) as Christ lives through us when we are born of GOD. We give food and drink, board the homeless, clothe the needy, visit the sick and those in prison. We are not saved by doing good deeds, but when we are born of GOD the good we do is by the Spirit of GOD in Christ living in and through us. Our good works of love testify we are born of GOD and saved as a child of GOD by Christ living through us.

Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' (Matthew 25:37-39).

And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me’ (Matthew 25:40). Whatever we do out of love for our fellow believers in Christ, we do for Christ too, because the Holy Spirit of GOD and Christ dwell within them just as they do in Us.

"Then He will say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me’ (Matthew 25:41-43). The “goats” on His left hand lived for self and pursued the lusts of the world.

“Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You' (Matthew 25:44)?

Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' And these will go away into everlasting correction, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matthew 25:45-46).

So speak and do as those who shall be judged by the Law of liberty. For he who has shown no mercy shall have judgment without mercy, and mercy exults over judgment. My brothers, what profit is it if a man says he has faith and does not have works? Can faith save him? Whoever has this world's goods and sees his brother having need, and shuts up his bowels from him, how does the love of GOD dwell in him? … let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth (1 John 3:17-18). If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and if one of you says to them, Go in peace, be warmed and filled, but you do not give them those things which are needful to the body, what good is it? Even so, if it does not have works, faith is dead, being by itself (James 2:12-17). Faith without works is a dead faith, but when we are born of GOD, the righteous works we do out of love as children of God are by the Spirit of GOD and Christ living in and through us.

But by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of GOD, not of works, lest anyone should boast (Ephesians 2:8-9). Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works (James 2:17-18). We are not saved by doing good works, but without works, our faith is a “dead faith”. Why the contradiction and how do we reconcile these verses? GOD saves us by forgiving us of our sins by His grace for our faith in the name of Jesus Christ as we repent and confess our sins (Romans 10:10, 1 John 1:9), not for doing good works. And the good we do out of love by Christ living in and through us indicate that we are born of GOD. When we are forgiven and sealed by the Spirit as a child of GOD, we pass from death unto life by being made alive with the Holy Spirit of Christ (John 5:24, 1 John 3:14).

Jesus Christ prayed to our Heavenly Father that all who believe in Him might be one with the Father and the Son (John 17:20-21). The Holy Spirit of GOD (Who is Eternal Life) is in Jesus Christ the Son because He was conceived by the Holy Spirit of GOD. This is why we are one with GOD the Father and the Son by the Spirit of Christ being within Us (believers in Christ), and why whoever has the Son has Life (Eternal Life - the Holy Spirit of GOD the Father within us, 1 John 5:13).

 

[clark thompson]

For a sheep to be a sheep it would follow the Shepherd. Jesus is our Shepherd and believers are to follow His example that He set.

 

[Barny]

The “sheep” are believers in the Son of Man Jesus Christ that were born of GOD and overcame the world to be seated at the right hand of GOD with Christ and blessed by GOD the Father as heirs of the Kingdom of GOD (Matthew 25:37). The “goats” are non-repentant sinners at the left hand of GOD cursed into “everlasting fire” prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41)

.





Hi CareGiver,

Are you an Adventist?
This post you offered seems consistent to that of other Adventists here.

You mentioned that the goats are unrepentant sinners.
That is correct, but we differ on what this means.
Scripture shows that an unrepentant sinner is one who turns to the law for righteousness. They believe that obedience to the law is how righteousness is determined. They are in unbelief.
Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed, (dead works of righteousness through the law) I make myself a transgressor/Sinner

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me’ (Matthew 25:34-36).

The “righteous” at the right hand of GOD do righteousness (good works) as Christ lives through us when we are born of GOD. We give food and drink, board the homeless, clothe the needy, visit the sick and those in prison. We are not saved by doing good deeds, but when we are born of GOD the good we do is by the Spirit of GOD in Christ living in and through us. Our good works of love testify we are born of GOD and saved as a child of GOD by Christ living through us.

The giving of food, drink, visiting those in prison and sick are all things that even non-believers do. Are they then saved based on this evidence you say we should have?

I suggest however that we look in spiritual terms for understanding of scripture, 1Cor 2:14.

What is the spiritual food/drink that mankind is in need of?
1Cor 10:3,4
And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.


Who are those in spiritual prison but those who are without Christ.
Isa 61:1
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

And what is the state of mankind without Christ?
It's sick, and needing to hear the gospel of Christ.
Isa 1:5,6
Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint.From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment.

And we know that those who hear the gospel and believe will be clothed with white robes and no longer naked.

So we see scripture speaking in spiritual terms regarding preaching the gospel of grace. And doing the works of believing in Jesus (John 6:29) Christians also let their light shine preaching the gospel of Christ to spiritually feed, clothe, heal and set free, the lost.
Matt 5:14-16
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.

Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.


.

Faith without works is a dead faith, but when we are born of GOD, the righteous works we do out of love as children of God are by the Spirit of GOD and Christ living in and through us.

Our works that shows our faith is to believe in Jesus, John 6:29.
And the righteousness we do is our faith that is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

 

[james1523]

Matthew 24 sets the context for the sheep and goats, and the context is the tribulation period, the end times. The sheep are the unbelievers who did good deeds for the Christians on Earth during the tribulation period. The goats are the ones who did not. Matt 25 reveals that Christians will be thirsty, hungry, naked, and in prison during the tribulation period. The unbelievers who even give a drink of water to the Christian is doing it unto Christ and will receive a reward when Christ returns. Matt 25:40 reveals the difference between "the righteous"..those who did good deeds to the Christians, and "My brethren" (i.e. the Christians).

 

[B-A-C]

Are you an Adventist?
This post you offered seems consistent to that of other Adventists here.

You mentioned that the goats are unrepentant sinners.
That is correct, but we differ on what this means.
Scripture shows that an unrepentant sinner is one who turns to the law for righteousness. They believe that obedience to the law is how righteousness is determined. They are in unbelief.

It's also consistent with Baptist, Lutheran and Pentecostal doctrine in this case.
The obvious problem with repenting from the law is, that we are all born into sin. However none of us are born into "following the law".
So we would have to repent twice, first of our sin, then of our following the law.
In fact the whole world doesn't believe in following the law until after they know it. Salvation doesn't come from following it, but the definition of sin comes through it.

I suppose the prayer of someone like this would be...
"God please forgive me of loving you and my brother. I'm sorry I loved my neighbor this week God. I'm sorry I didn't steal or lie to anyone this week, I'll try to do better next week".

 

[Barny]

It's also consistent with Baptist, Lutheran and Pentecostal doctrine in this case.
The obvious problem with repenting from the law is, that we are all born into sin. However none of us are born into "following the law".
So we would have to repent twice, first of our sin, then of our following the law.
In fact the whole world doesn't believe in following the law until after they know it. Salvation doesn't come from following it, but the definition of sin comes through it.

I suppose the prayer of someone like this would be...
"God please forgive me of loving you and my brother. I'm sorry I loved my neighbor this week God. I'm sorry I didn't steal or lie to anyone this week, I'll try to do better next week".

Hi B-A-C,

Actually we repented of "dead works" (Heb 6:1) of self-righteousness, which is sin.
For the Jews who had the law of righteousness, they failed to attain righteousness by works and thus perished.
And for those without the law they perished without the law as they were not righteous.
All unrighteousness is sin, 1John 5:17.

Now for believers, our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
We have repented of our "dead works"/Sin.
We're now righteous/sanctified/holy/perfected.
There is no more repentance if we fall away, Heb 6:4-6.

To go back under the law to establish righteousness as evidence of salvation is to make yourself a transgressor/Sinner, Gal 2:18.
This is to sin wilfully, Heb 10:26.

So beware the leaven of those who preach the law, Matt 16:12.
A little leaven (doctrine of the law) leavens he whole lump, Gal 5:9.

 

[B-A-C]

Actually we repented of "dead works" (Heb 6:1) of self-righteousness, which is sin.
For the Jews who had the law of righteousness, they failed to attain righteousness by works and thus perished.
And for those without the law they perished without the law as they were not righteous.
All unrighteousness is sin, 1 John 5:17

Now for believers, our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
We have repented of our "dead works"/Sin.
We're now righteous/sanctified/holy/perfected.
There is no more repentance if we fall away, Heb 6:4-6.

To go back under the law to establish righteousness as evidence of salvation is to make yourself a transgressor/Sinner, Gal 2:18.
This is to sin wilfully, Heb 10:26.

So beware the leaven of those who preach the law, Matt 16:12.
A little leaven (doctrine of the law) leavens he whole lump, Gal 5:9.

There are some works that are dead works, trying to achieve salvation by works for example.
But all works are not dead works.
It's true there is no more repentance if we fall away. Sinning isn't falling away. Unbelief is falling away.
Gal 2:18; is talking about salvation by the law. Not going good works after salvation.

The leaven of the Pharisee wasn't that they taught the law, it was that they taught the law, but didn't practice what they taught. This is why Jesus called them hypocrites.

Matt 23:2; saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses;
Matt 23:3; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.
Matt 23:4; "They tie up heavy burdens and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are unwilling to move them with so much as a finger.

Matt 23:13; "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

Matt 23:23; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

Matt 23:25; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence.
Matt 23:26; "You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
Matt 23:27; "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
Matt 23:28; "So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

Hypocrisy was the leaven of the Pharisee's, not teaching the law.
1 Tim 1:8; But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,

So beware the leaven of those who preach the law, Matt 16:12..

Matt 15:3; And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
Matt 15:4; "For God said, 'HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, 'HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.'
Matt 15:5; "But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,"
Matt 15:6; he is not to honor his father or his mother.' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

Matt 16:11; "How is it that you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread? But beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees."
Matt 16:12; Then they understood that He did not say to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees. (that mens tradition was more important than God's laws)

A little leaven (doctrine of the law) leavens he whole lump, Gal 5:9.

Gal 5:11; But I, brethren, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been abolished.
Gal 5:12; I wish that those who are troubling you would even mutilate themselves.
Gal 5:13; For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another.
Gal 5:14; For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Was Paul preaching loving your neighbor was wrong? Or was he preaching that circumcision is no longer required?

 

[B-A-C]

To go back under the law to establish righteousness as evidence of salvation is to make yourself a transgressor/Sinner, Gal 2:18.

Matt 7:22; "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Did Jesus cast these out because of their unbelief? Or because of lawlessness? (Which is what antimonianism means) Could they have cast out demons in his name if they didn't believe?

Matt 13:41; "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Barny]

Matt 7:22; "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Matt 7:23; "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Did Jesus cast these out because of their unbelief? Or because of lawlessness? (Which is what antimonianism means) Could they have cast out demons in his name if they didn't believe?

Matt 13:41; "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Those who are judged of lawlessness are those who do not believe in Jesus. They prefer to establish righteousness through the law and thus make themselves transgressors/Sinners, Gal 2:18.

A believers faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. We cannot be accused of lawlessness.

 

[CareGiver]

Those who are judged of lawlessness are those who do not believe in Jesus. They prefer to establish righteousness through the law and thus make themselves transgressors/Sinners, Gal 2:18.



A believers faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. We cannot be accused of lawlessness.

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, (Romans 4:5).

God justifies us (and continues to justify us) as we continue to repent and confess our sins, until we are justified (have been justified) when we have turned from sin (come to repentance) and are saved by being made alive (quickened) together with the Spirit of Christ.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? (Romans 6:1)

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

Christ came into the world to save us from our sins,..........just because we believe does not mean we have been justified (made righteous). Does having faith in Jesus give us the right to lie, steal, murder, rape, covet? The Lord is not willing that any perish, but that all come to repentance. "To repent" (a verb) is to acknowledge our wrong with the intent to change,......to "come to repentance" is to reach the state of being where we have changed or gained the victory over that which we acknowledged was wrong.

If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him (1 John 2:29)

 

[james1523]

But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, (Romans 4:5).

God justifies us (and continues to justify us) as we continue to repent and confess our sins, until we are justified (have been justified) when we have turned from sin (come to repentance) and are saved by being made alive (quickened) together with the Spirit of Christ.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? (Romans 6:1)

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

Christ came into the world to save us from our sins,..........just because we believe does not mean we have been justified (made righteous). Does having faith in Jesus give us the right to lie, steal, murder, rape, covet? The Lord is not willing that any perish, but that all come to repentance. "To repent" (a verb) is to acknowledge our wrong with the intent to change,......to "come to repentance" is to reach the state of being where we have changed or gained the victory over that which we acknowledged was wrong.

If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him (1 John 2:29)

Yes, God's justification is not just a once only and past experience. It is a process over a lifetime of belief and action.
The example in the life of Abraham shows us that God calls or meets us, we believe Him, we obey, God justifies.. and then again later the same thing, God calls, we believe, we obey, God justifies. It's about taking the Father's will each step of the way in each stage and season of life that God brings us through. It's like how the Israelites followed God around in the desert and out of Egypt. God moved, they followed. Their faith determined how long they stayed in there, and whether or not they would reach the promised land.
Even if they had faith, they weren't getting anywhere without moving their feet.
Imagine if the Israelites only *believed* God would bring them out of Egypt, and they did not start moving themselves out.

 

[Barny]

just because we believe does not mean we have been justified (made righteous).

That is incorrect.
Believing in Jesus is the works that shows our faith, John 6:29.
We are justified by faith without the deeds of the law, Rom 3:28.

The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was justified by faith without the deeds of the law. His faith was counted for righteousness.

It seems that doctrine you follow is about unbelief in Jesus, as it turns it's followers back to the law to be perfected by the flesh. And in doing this you make yourself a sinner, Gal 2:18.

Does having faith in Jesus give us the right to lie, steal, murder, rape, covet?

Adventist type doctrines always use this false line of reasoning to argue that if we don't stay with the law people will run wild with excesses.

The reality is Christians do not run wild without the law.
In fact often their behavior improves.

The Lord is not willing that any perish, but that all come to repentance. "To repent" (a verb) is to acknowledge our wrong with the intent to change,......to "come to repentance" is to reach the state of being where we have changed or gained the victory over that which we acknowledged was wrong.

And Christians have repented of their "dead works" (Heb 6:1).
We have turned back to God, rejecting our own righteousness as filthy rags.
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

But those who are still preaching the law have not repented. They still follow worldly lusts of self-righteousness. They continue under the law arguing that obedience is required for righteousness. And in doing this they make themselves transgressors/Sinners, Gal 2:18.

If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him

(1 John 2:29)

And as we see, even from yourself, no one is practicing righteousness in the way you are describing it.
You are not perfectly obeying the law, therefore you do not practice righteousness.

But scripture contradicts your view and tells us that our faith is counted for righteousness. Rom 4:5.This is practicing righteousness. There is no other way.

 

[DHC]

Hello all.

Interested to know what some folk think about the following verse.

2 Corinthians 3:9
For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

What is the ministry of condemnation?

What is the ministry of righteousness?

 

[CareGiver]

That is incorrect.
Believing in Jesus is the works that shows our faith, John 6:29.
We are justified by faith without the deeds of the law, Rom 3:28.

Do you understand the difference between "being justified" (justifies) and "justified"? GOD "justifes" us as we repent and confess our sins, until we are "justified" and made "righteous" when we are born of GOD to be a child of GOD by being made alive together with Christ. A believer that is "being justified" is being forgiven/acquitted of sins, but that does not mean they are justified to be righteous that happens when we are born of GOD by being made alive (quickened) together with the Spirit of Christ.

This has nothing to do with the Law. Righteousness by the Law is out of the picture. The Law is abolished, done away in that Christ fulfilled the Law for us so that now.......

Romans 8:1-4There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (2) But the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. (3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh; (4) so that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

No condemnation for those who walk according to the Spirit, AND NOT AFTER THE FLESH. We are free from the Mosaic Law (the Law of sin and death).
The righteousness of the Law will be fulfilled in us as Christ is formed in us by walking according to the Spirit and not after the flesh.

The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was justified by faith without the deeds of the law. His faith was counted for righteousness.

It seems that doctrine you follow is about unbelief in Jesus, as it turns it's followers back to the law to be perfected by the flesh. And in doing this you make yourself a sinner, Gal 2:18.

Christ is formed in us as we walk with the Spirit until we are born of the Spirit and continue to grow until we are sanctified completely to be a son of GOD by being anointed with the Holy Spirit of GOD.

Our doctrine is to follow Christ, to live in the Spirit and grow in grace and wisdom as we walk with the Spirit to become Christ-like. In the realm of walking with the Spirit we keep the commandments of GOD the Father as with love GOD and the brethren. We work with GOD as HE brings forth the fruit of HIS Spirit through us. I have been made righteous and am in the Kingdom of GOD by being one with GOD our Father because I have been born of GOD by faith in the name of the Son of GOD Jesus Christ, our LORD and Savior.

Adventist type doctrines always use this false line of reasoning to argue that if we don't stay with the law people will run wild with excesses.

The reality is Christians do not run wild without the law.
In fact often their behavior improves.

And Christians have repented of their "dead works" (Heb 6:1).
We have turned back to God, rejecting our own righteousness as filthy rags.
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

GOD may count our faith for righteousness, but that does not mean we are justified to be righeous, which does not happen until we are born of GOD.

But those who are still preaching the law have not repented. They still follow worldly lusts of self-righteousness. They continue under the law arguing that obedience is required for righteousness. And in doing this they make themselves transgressors/Sinners, Gal 2:18.

Walking with the Spirit and not after the flesh is required to be made righteous,........but not our righteousness, the righteousness of Christ we receive when we are born of GOD by being made alive together with the Spirit of Christ when GOD forgives us of all trespasses, which does not happen until we repent, or turn from the world and sin.

And as we see, even from yourself, no one is practicing righteousness in the way you are describing it.
You are not perfectly obeying the law, therefore you do not practice righteousness.

Believers that are born of GOD practice righteousness and are righteous as Christ lives in and through us because we are born of GOD.

Do not love the world, nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him, because all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passes away, and the lust of it, but he who does the will of God abides forever (1 John 2:15-17).

I have spoken these things to you so that you might have peace in Me. In the world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer. I have overcome the world.
(John 16:33)

He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son (Revelation 21:7).


But scripture contradicts your view and tells us that our faith is counted for righteousness. Rom 4:5.This is practicing righteousness. There is no other way.

Practicing righteousness is to live life in a righteousness manner through love by walking with the Spirit and not after the flesh.
We see examples of this in the following. For I was hungry, and you gave me food; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you took Me in; I was naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me (Matthew 25:35-36).

For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ shall rise first.
(1 Thessalonians 4:16)

 

[james1523]

Hello all.

Interested to know what some folk think about the following verse.

2 Corinthians 3:9
For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

What is the ministry of condemnation?

What is the ministry of righteousness?

2 Cor 3:7-9 Now if the ministry that brought death,which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory,fading though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

Ministry of condemnation is the Old Covenant and the law that brings condemnation and death, the ministry of the law or ministry of letters. The Ministry of righteousness is the Ministry of the Spirit who gives us life and makes us righteous by imparting the life of Christ into our being: Rom 5:18 So then as it was through one offense unto condemnation to all men, so also it was through one righteous act unto justification of life to all men.

The face of Moses was shining with God's glory , how much more will Christ in us, as the Spirit, in the ministry of righteousness and Spirit, with His imparted righteousness.

 

[Puddleglum]

That is incorrect.
Believing in Jesus is the works that shows our faith, John 6:29.
We are justified by faith without the deeds of the law, Rom 3:28.

The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was justified by faith without the deeds of the law. His faith was counted for righteousness.

It seems that doctrine you follow is about unbelief in Jesus, as it turns it's followers back to the law to be perfected by the flesh. And in doing this you make yourself a sinner, Gal 2:18.


Adventist type doctrines always use this false line of reasoning to argue that if we don't stay with the law people will run wild with excesses.

The reality is Christians do not run wild without the law.
In fact often their behavior improves.



And Christians have repented of their "dead works" (Heb 6:1).
We have turned back to God, rejecting our own righteousness as filthy rags.
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

But those who are still preaching the law have not repented. They still follow worldly lusts of self-righteousness. They continue under the law arguing that obedience is required for righteousness. And in doing this they make themselves transgressors/Sinners, Gal 2:18.

And as we see, even from yourself, no one is practicing righteousness in the way you are describing it.
You are not perfectly obeying the law, therefore you do not practice righteousness.

But scripture contradicts your view and tells us that our faith is counted for righteousness. Rom 4:5.This is practicing righteousness. There is no other way.
Show me Faith with out the works ? the faith must work in the Spirit and if it is not in the spirit, it is as only filth, just mans worldlyness.
The 10 commandments must of came from Satan ? or was it the Spirit of God ? do Christians disregard the 10 as the work of Satan or do they know that the 10 will not save you and they give guidance to God's will.
In the supernatural order an act of faith is the ferm assent of the interlect to a truth revealed by God, on the authroity of God himself revealing. this assentis given under the influence of grace.
Faith is indespensable for sanctification and salvation.
Behold, he that is unbeliving,his soul shall not be right in him self: but the just shall live in his faith.

 

[rizen1]

Hi CareGiver,

Are you an Adventist?

@CareGiver no need to answer this question.
If a study is taking place its irrelevant.
The information provided should be researched without bias or prejudice.

 

[CareGiver]

@CareGiver no need to answer this question.
If a study is taking place its irrelevant.
The information provided should be researched without bias or prejudice.

This question was answered on a previous thread. I am not a Democrat, I am not a Republican, I am an American, I am a Christian, I am an American Christian in the Kingdom of GOD, or rather of the Kingdom of GOD that currently dwells in a world I believe has gone into darkness.

Do those who post on a particular thread consider if what they post distracts or adds to the ongoing discussion of that thread?
Quest ions injected that tend to divert the conversation from what is trying to be explained and understood should be introducted as new threads.

 

[CareGiver]

Barney, did you understand post #14 of this thread?

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Do those who post on a particular thread consider if what they post distracts or adds to the ongoing discussion of that thread?
Quest ions injected that tend to divert the conversation from what is trying to be explained and understood should be introducted as new threads.

That would be like having one man on a pulpit expounding what he sees as truth.
That has been going on for a while now and the results are less than impressive.
It may be annoying to have to divert on the many questions and or disagreements but it gives a really good perspective on how much individuals carry away from any preaching they can't fully agree with and the types of things that will cause someone to disengage unless they can get some feedback.
Without this type of interaction you may never actually get any point across unless you know can explain it forward and backward and side to side.

When you witness to unbelievers you must be prepared for diversions and even personal experiences that they will throw at you.
If you can't answer a 6 year old when they ask "why did God make mosquitoes" then why would they think you know something about God.I asked that when I was six and no one could answer so I thought adults were stupid and I guess I still do.
Many of our intelligent discussions do not even address the trials,doubts and hurts that people are suffering.
These diversions are really helpful if you want to learn to talk with people and not at them.
It is much easier to smell error than truth and seekers of truth have a small warehouse so everything has to fit neatly.I go through my warehouse daily to see if there is any leaven because error will push truth right out of the door.