Should Women Be Pastors and Elders?

[james1523]

All Christian women wore head coverings at one time. Only since the 20th century did it decline. Women spend hours in the bathroom applying makeup or doing their hair ready for church. They make sure their dress or skirt is nicely trimmed and not creased. It's not hard to put something on the head, it's the easiest thing to do , I don't see why there is so much opposition to it. Probably because they want to look good before men rather than before God.

The main reason for head covering is as sign of authority of submission to the male church leadership, and to stop angels and men lusting after the beauty of women.

And short hair on women and long hair on men is a disgrace, according to the Bible (1 Cor 11).

 

[B-A-C]

All Christian women wore head coverings at one time. Only since the 20th century did it decline.

I agree, but even now in 2013 there are churches were women cover their heads, wear dresses, and dress pretty modestly. I've been in some Pentecostal and Baptist churches that are still pretty traditional.
Enough picking on the women. The other thing I have noticed men doing lately is wearing hats and caps in church. ( 1 Cor 11:7; ) Some churches don't put up with this either

 

[james1523]

I agree, but even now in 2013 there are churches were women cover their heads, wear dresses, and dress pretty modestly. I've been in some Pentecostal and Baptist churches that are still pretty traditional.
Enough picking on the women. The other thing I have noticed men doing lately is wearing hats and caps in church. ( 1 Cor 11:7; ) Some churches don't put up with this either

Cowboys? It's not only against the bible it's rude to wear hat indoors.

 

[revbrad]

We Need to understand ? God has a Perfect Will and Permissive will !
Everything will not be in His perfect will ! We might want it in His perfect will ? but it not going to be always !

God is perfect, therefore His will is perfect.
I do not believe in a perfect and permissive will.

God permits things to happen, that does not mean it is in His will in any way, shape or form.

It is not His will that any should perish but they do. Does this mean it is in His permissive will?

Is there scripture to support a permissive will of God?

 

[anya]

All Christian women wore head coverings at one time. Only since the 20th century did it decline. Women spend hours in the bathroom applying makeup or doing their hair ready for church. They make sure their dress or skirt is nicely trimmed and not creased. It's not hard to put something on the head, it's the easiest thing to do , I don't see why there is so much opposition to it. Probably because they want to look good before men rather than before God.

The main reason for head covering is as sign of authority of submission to the male church leadership, and to stop angels and men lusting after the beauty of women.

And short hair on women and long hair on men is a disgrace, according to the Bible (1 Cor 11).

Doesn't 1 Cor 11:15 say that a woman's hair is her covering? I am neither for nor against covering my head, in fact I have covered my head when praying, at times. I do not think it should be an area of contention. "But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God." 1 Cor 11:16

By the way, wasn't this forum about women being elders and pastors in the church?

 

[spirit1st]

Listen ? We all live oin that middle ground , it Called GRACE ! Not one of us live 100% in His perfect will ! We just try hard to do it !
The world could care less ! We Care !

We All if in the LORD , want too please our Lord Jesus 100% Still we fail at times ! Anyone who thinks they live a perfect life for HIM are only fooling them selves ! If that were true , Then we would not need that middle ground GRACE!

Believe me ? We Need His Wonderful Grace , which gives us Mercy ! Thank you LORD JESUS !


Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Listen ? When we start thinking we are living the perfect live for HIm ? Then we start looking down on others , who we think are Not living prefect lives for HIm ! It Really hurts Us !

Gal_2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Eph_2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
It Not your good works !

 

[spirit1st]

1Co 11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
1Co 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
1Co 11:8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
1Co 11:9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
1Co 11:10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
1Co 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
1Co 11:16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

The Reason it a lesson to the Angels is , too reveal They are submitted to a man as the Angels are to be submitted to GOD

Now they submit differently to the leaders of church or there Dad than They would to there Husbands 1 But we must remember we must Love them as Christ LOVES the church ! It a love , that puts ourselves aside for them ? It not a LORDING LOVE ! Like i am master You must obey !
We must be humble and always for what is best for Her and the Family 1 Even if we suffer some from it ! The Key to all is LOVE !


Listen once i had told me wife to do something ! She refused ! I went and got on my knees and told the Lord, This woman You gave me will not listen ! Make a long Story short ,GOD dealt with Her and she obeyed ! We do not need to force our wives to obey or tell them to do evil junk !

The Key Word is Always LOVE !

 

[Fragrant Grace]

Do we as Christians have the right to change an ordinance appointed by God, so that we can fit in with society. Shouldn't we as women trust that God's order is the most honorable way, and the most glorifying to Him?

Yes God's order is the most honorable way and the only way to glorify Him

The wishy-washy Christianity of many churches today has watered down God's Word so much that His ordinances become second best.

They which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto Him which died for them
2 Corinthians 5:15


@anya Just came back to add....in difficult situations like yours anya where there are no men Chad's original post says:

if in some highly unusual set of circumstances there is a woman in a lone situation, it is far more important that the word of God be preached and the gospel of salvation go forth to the lost than not. Whether it be male or female, let the gospel be spoken. However, I would say that as soon as there is/are males mature enough to handle eldership, that she should then establish the proper order of the church as revealed in scripture and thereby, show her submission to it.

 

[spirit1st]

God Perfect way is Always the best way ! but , we might not be able to serve Him perfectly ? But if any way ? We should !!!

This whole world , every Man , Woman ,and child is living under Grace right Now ! Grace is God Mercy , Which comes out of LOVE !

It always Much better to Obey His living Words Always , if we can ? If not ? We do the very best ewe can ?

 

[james1523]

Doesn't 1 Cor 11:15 say that a woman's hair is her covering? I am neither for nor against covering my head, in fact I have covered my head when praying, at times. I do not think it should be an area of contention. "But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God." 1 Cor 11:16

By the way, wasn't this forum about women being elders and pastors in the church?

The topic of women preaching is related to the head covering. 1 Cor 11:5 says if a woman does not have a head covering while she prays or prophesies it dishonors her head. Women are allowed to pray, prophesy and preach in the church but should have a head covering as a sign of submission to the man. This is the purpose of head covering. in 1 Cor 11:5 Paul says if a woman does not cover her head, she may as well be bald.
1 Cor 11:5 "But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is the same as having her head shaved."

1 Cor 11:16 Paul is saying anyone who disagrees with him about head covering is being contentious, and that his instructions regarding head coverings are the same for all the churches. This proves that Paul's instructions were not written for cultural reasons or only for Corinthian church as some suggest, but the same applied to all the churches, Ephesus, Rome, Jerusalem etc.

We know that 1 Cor 11:10 says Therefore the woman ought to have a sign of submission to authority on her head for the sake of the angels.
The sign of submission on the head is the head covering, not the hair. But Paul is making the point that a woman with shaved head is shameful, therefore a woman praying or prophesying in church without a covering is also shameful. When a woman preaches or prays or prophesies in church, she should have a head covering as a sign of submission to the watching angels. This is because praying, preaching and prophesying is touching and representing God's authority, and the head covering is a sign of submission to show that she accepts God's order. Wearing a head covering can therefore be seen as an act of worship. If we went to meet the President of the USA or the Queen of England we would make sure we have the proper clearance passes and dress in the proper way, out of respect. It is like that.

The reality is that God and angels are not always present in churches. Things not done His way He will not show up. In Revelation 3:20 we see Jesus knocking on the door of a church, they won't let Him in. For this reason no one today is really concerned about getting sick or dying if they misuse the communion bread or wine, or offend observing angels by not wearing head coverings. But in the early church God's presence was still strong, because they were not corrupted by sectarianism and all the other 'ism's'. For this reason they took care not to offend the abiding presence of God nor the holy angels because God's immediate and temporal punishment was a possibility (e.g. the two that fell down dead because they lied to the apostle).

If we knew the President or the Queen was coming to visit we would prepare ourselves accordingly.. the fact that no one cares about getting sick or dying if they misuse the communion wine or offend the angels by not having a head covering proves that God is not expected to show up.

 

[amadeus2]

God permits things to happen, that does not mean it is in His will in any way, shape or form.

It is not His will that any should perish but they do. Does this mean it is in His permissive will?

Is there scripture to support a permissive will of God?

God permitted man to decide to obey or disobey Him, but that so many would choose disobedience so often is certainly one reason that Jesus wept.

 

[Boanerges]

I (at least for now) have to look at it this way:

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

It has been my great pleasure and privilege to know a few of the finest preachers, and evangelists, that I have ever seen. God moved on and through them mightily, used them for His glory; and oh yeah, they were women.
Who am I to reject what God is using so effectively?
Is this because men did not answer the call or some other reason? I do not know the answers to these questions.

 

[Eddy Fire]

Should Women Be Pastors and Elders?

little children

Jesus did one thing over and again that even today most do not do

He spoke very simply and said things without much talk and need for top of the class bible knowledge and at the same time He spoke volumes and volumes and volumes to the learned and their counterparts - by using the same simple way of talking

God said
and it was so
and it was good
and lasting
and real
we live in that now

listen

another word from the Lord
listen

Look was another

behold and see

He would put it this way - is a wife ever a husband?

can a wife be a husband? or a husband a wife?

we the hearers must now understand what this means and do what it means

if you look into the Old Testament you see over and again that the LORD is speaking to Israel and Ephraim as if they were women
He talks of their unfaithfulness
He talks of their adulteries
He talks of their nakedness and shame
BUT all the while He is addressing the men

everyone likes LIBERTY as found in Christ

but I ask you:
once and man takes a wife can he therefore treat her with his own liberal ways and flirt with other women?
Can he dress as a woman and order his wife to work at his job while he sits with other women talking womens matters?
He has liberty so why would he not do this?

well, he does when he, as a minister of God, flirts and takes on the position of a woman

NOW LIKEWISE can a wife do the same and flirt around?
can she get the man to do the womans task of breastfeeding or any other female thing?

can the man and wife exchange gender and the roles of gender?

NO

so why when it comes to this subject of should women do what God has given for men to do - why do we stumble around and pretend that it is OK?

The Scriptures do tell us why and it is not a very flattering word.

how long will the men be effeminate?

the union of the Bride and Bridegroom is something very special that the Lord has given to the Jews to understand Him and His relationship with man and the shadow and example we have in marriage including betrothal is perverted daily by the ones who profess their position with the Bridegroom and the marriage between man and woman has even taken a more holy and sacred position than the union of God and Man

the uproar about divorce
the judgement aginst adultery
the shamefilled cries against harlotry and fornication

all drunk with loathsome sores that will not heal as they refuse to hear and turn again to Me says the Lord

O how we love that idea of liberty
O how the words of many shout it out with pride and boastings
we have a robe
we are one with Him

but lo
what boasting as the harlot descends to the pit uncovered and gnashing her broken teeth
blood on her hands
and the smell so vile that eternal fire itself could not purge and make clean

our liberty is sacred as a marriage
our liberty is holy not to be defiled

our liberty is not a license to commit abominable sin
our liberty is the freedom to love without measure the lover to whom we are now One with
and must be protected and held dear
and not mistaken as a permission to do as you will

but ever
ALWAYS - not mine will but Thine
be done

I ask one more time:
is a wife ever a husband?
and the husband the wife?

you know the answer
you know it is true
go now and do
do what you must do
be true

 

[sintheticg]

good thread,

I sat through a bible study where a woman lead in prayer and it did not sit right with my spirit. Just because men and women have different roles doesn't mean one is any greater than the other. I'm not married but I can't see myself being comfortable allowing a wife to go to work and pay the bills and call myself a man. If we are called to love our wives like Christ loved the church, we should recognize we are both a servant and protector. I'd happily protect my wife, provide for her, and serve her as I believe all Christians should be servants one to another.

God used women in the place of leadership when there were no men available, unfortunately for these female preachers, there is an abundance of male preachers out there already. So by starting your own church, I might question if you were serving God or chasing the almighty dollar. You don't have to be a pastor to serve God, women can witness, teach other women, disciple the children, so on so forth. Whether you like it or not women tend to let their emotions rule them and that is not good for a leader. God help us if hillary clinton is elected president and can push the big red button if another countries leader doesnt notice her new shoes and compliment them appropriately. (just messing with you ladies)

With how reprobate our current moral state is in America, I'd be very leery to have a man in charge of kids... Far too many pedophiles out there, I'd feel much safer if I had a child, that the child were under the teaching of a woman in sunday school, that's just the times we live in.

as far as head dresses and dressing modestly, I sincerely wish more women would, as a man who struggles with lust I can't begin to explain how distracting a low cut dress can be, and you may be causing a brother in Christ to stumble and fall to a sin he is trying to get victory over. Like paul said he sincerely desired to serve, but his members still committed sin. When I go to church im there to learn about God and worship Him, not to look at your figure.

 

[rodd]

In my opinion according to scripture definitely not!.......Actually it's just a phenomena of the 20th century.

The womens agenda decieves the woman and undermines the man as head, not good. If she tries to lead over the man she dishonors him as the head of her household and corporately those of Gods house.

 

[james1523]

I (at least for now) have to look at it this way:

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

It has been my great pleasure and privilege to know a few of the finest preachers, and evangelists, that I have ever seen. God moved on and through them mightily, used them for His glory; and oh yeah, they were women.
Who am I to reject what God is using so effectively?
Is this because men did not answer the call or some other reason? I do not know the answers to these questions.

In Christ, this is true.. there will be a time when men and women are no different. The thing is, we are still in the physical flesh... the curses from the fall are still existing.. women still get pain in childbirth... and we still have to work for our food. The old creation order has not changed as long as we are in the physical flesh.

 

[rodd]

The sexual revolution took it's toll in the world and in the church, just as the French Revolution unseated Kings, incredibly destructive and designed for radical change.
As Christians we should beware of these secular catalysts of radicalism.

 

[Thorwald]

There is one 'strange' thing that bothers me. Christ, as a child, was found talking to a 'prophetess'. We know that prophets are anointed 'above' teachers. Can anyone explain this?

 

[james1523]

There is one 'strange' thing that bothers me. Christ, as a child, was found talking to a 'prophetess'. We know that prophets are anointed 'above' teachers. Can anyone explain this?

There is no prohibition against women praying or prophesying, but the woman should have a covering on her head to signify she is still under the authority of the man:
1 Cor 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

Any prophetess talking to Christ would no doubt have had her head covered by a veil.

 

[Thorwald]

There is no prohibition against women praying or prophesying, but the woman should have a covering on her head to signify she is still under the authority of the man:
1 Cor 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

Any prophetess talking to Christ would no doubt have had her head covered by a veil.

Would she be allowed to 'speak' in a church? The scriptures tell us, that the woman should be silent in the church. This is what I was getting at, in my previous posting.