Sanctification vs Justification

[Barny]

John 6:29 "This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Yes it is God's work that we believe, but if this was all there was to life in Christ, no more would have needed to be written.
Believing is not works Barny, yes it is of faith, but it is not works, works is something that is done. When Abraham did not believe he commited fornication, that is works. When Abraham did believe he offered up his son Issac, that is works, which is a followed up from faith. Works is an action promoted by faith, unbelief is also promotes and action which is the act of sin.
Yes Barny, I did say we are still to live a Godly life, and a Godly life is a life of love which is also imparted to us through faith. And if I sin it is not of love for sin is lust not love. Sin is of the flesh, love is of the Spirit to follow the Spirit I will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. Your so dead set in your belief and believe that you have all of the truth that you fall into the Laodicean warning where it says "I am rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing" I will let you finish the warning on your own. God has given us a warning, we should heed the warning. I understand how you interpret this scripture and you are only partially correct. When we say that we have the imputed righteousness and that is all we need we become luke warm and in need of nothing. Faith performs that which is good and exceptable to the Lord.
If Cain had loved his brother Abel, he would not have killed him, so love would have saved him from the horrible sin, and also saved the life of Abel. If we love our neighbor we will not lust after his wife, and if we loved our neighbors wife, we would not lust after her. All of this is of the world which we are to overcome through faith. God does impart love and love is sanctification. We are made righteous through love. It's not a cover up Barny it is a reality we are to become lovely, and love in itself, without any help from me, will keep the law.
I realize that I can only give information, the information given to me through God's word and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the true teacher and only He can teach, but if we grieve Him away, He cannot teach us and we fall into willful ignorance which is rebellion.

Ahh...just noticed you added some more points to your post.

It's concerning that you say that believing in Jesus is not works, in spite of John 6:29 saying that it is our works.

In fact our works of believing in Jesus is consistent with the gospel message, John 3:16.
The works of believing in Jesus is also consistent with all the following:
It's the will of God, John 6:40.
It's his commandment, 1John 3:23
It's how we overcome the world, 1John 5:5
It's how we are born of God, 1John 5:1
It's how we are made righteous, Rom 4:5

And it's unbelief in Jesus that is the sin the world is convicted of, John 16:9.

So we see that believing in Jesus is good works that are done by believers. It's an action that shows our faith. Which means it's an action that does not mix grace with works of the law.

And how do we live "godly" as you spoke of?
We believe in Jesus.
Lets define godliness to confirm this.
1Tim 3:16
without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.

1Tim 4:8
godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come.

And that promise of life is in Jesus Christ. Believing in him.
So we see believers are godly, and that without the deeds of the law.

 

[DHC]

Matthew Henry:
#Ga 2:20,21 Here, in his own person, the apostle describes the spiritual or hidden life of a believer. The old man is crucified, {#Ro 6:6} but the new man is living; sin is mortified, and grace is quickened. He has the comforts and the triumphs of grace; yet that grace is not from himself, but from another. Believers see themselves living in a state of dependence on Christ. Hence it is, that though he lives in the flesh, yet he does not live after the flesh. Those who have true faith, live by that faith; and faith fastens upon Christ’s giving himself for us. He loved me, and gave himself for me. As if the apostle said, The Lord saw me fleeing from him more and more. Such wickedness, error, and ignorance were in my will and understanding, that it was not possible for me to be ransomed by any other means than by such a price. Consider well this price. Here notice the false faith of many. And their profession is accordingly; they have the form of godliness without the power of it. They think they believe the articles of faith aright, but they are deceived. For to believe in Christ crucified, is not only to believe that he was crucified, but also to believe that I am crucified with him. And this is to know Christ crucified. Hence we learn what is the nature of grace. God’s grace cannot stand with man’s merit. Grace is no grace unless it is freely given every way. The more simply the believer relies on Christ for every thing, the more devotedly does he walk before him in all his ordinances and commandments. Christ lives and reigns in him, and he lives here on earth by faith in the Son of God, which works by love, causes obedience, and changes into his holy image. Thus he neither abuses the grace of God, nor makes it in vain.

Hello Brakelite.

You quoted from Matthew Henry.

My claim in the previous post was that most theologians had
not really understood (Galatians 2:20-21). I stand by my claim
brakelite, so together we will examine the explanation given by
the theologian you quoted.


Matthew Henry.
"This is strange: I live, and yet not I; he lives in the exercise of grace; he has the comforts and the
triumphs of grace; and yet that grace is not from himself, but from another. Believers see themselves
living in a state of dependence."


I thought you would have noticed this line within this
commentary by M.H brakelite.

"This is strange: I live, and yet not I;"

M.H does not understand this statement brakelite.
It appears to be a contradiction to M.H. Now notice
how M.H attempts to explain this "strange" statement
made by Paul. M.H appeals to the standard Biblical
constant, Grace, by using the term Grace, M.H will
not be in error in trying to explain this foreign statement
will he brakelite.

"I live yet not I", so M.H attempts to describe this statement
with a line such as "he lives in the exercise of grace;".

Here is the line from Galatians in question;

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live,

The flesh (sarx) was Saul, the Hebrew of Hebrews.
Saul died with Christ, the flesh of Saul has ceased. Saul does
not exist anymore. The new creation, the new spiritual man,
Paul now breathes, and utters the simple Gospel, Christ crucified.

The death of Saul was a real event, the soul of Saul is dead.
Paul now exists, from the natural to the spiritual, from death
to life, from a murderer to the apostle. Paul is a new spiritual
soul waiting for the realization of the future regeneration, which
has already occurred at the divine level.

The death of Saul is not less of self and more of Christ.
This is not true, it is not less of self, we walk in and live by
the Spirit. Death is not an idea, or a lesson, or even a creed,
it is a reality in Christ. In Christ you are already dead, so crucify your
flesh, and imitate Jesus.

Jesus spent His life empowered by the Holy Spirit.

Throw M.T's commentary in the bin and read the following;

Galatians 3
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you,
does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

1 Corinthians 2
1 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified.
3 I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling,
4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom,
but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

 

[DHC]

Hello Brakelite.

Sorry that I could not answer your questions immediately.

I will now answer your questions brakelite.

Question 1.
He (Jesus) said we would bear good fruit, so how (do we bear fruit), why (or for what purpose), and how far can we go?

How do we bear good fruit?

Matthew 7
18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.

Galatians 5
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness,
faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its
passions and desires.

After you have read these verses you will realize that;

1) We do not produce the fruit of the Spirit.

2) The Holy Spirit within produces the fruit.

3) You have the mind of Christ brakelite, surely
you understand that you are a royal priest. A
ROYAL PRIEST is exempt from obedience to the
law of the sabbath.

Brakelite, your understanding of the death of the flesh
is wanting. You died with Christ when you were baptized.
If the flesh is dead and you know it is, why do you say that
you are growing in Christ. Accept the Revelation of Christ,
your dead, a new spiritual man, so walk in the Spirit in its
full power.

 

[B-A-C]

1) We do not produce the fruit of the Spirit.
2) The Holy Spirit within produces the fruit.

No matter who produces it, you or the Spirit, the fruit should be evident. No fruit means you are spiritually dead.
Jas 2:26; Just as the body is dead without breath, so also faith is dead without good works.

 

[Barny]

No matter who produces it, you or the Spirit, the fruit should be evident. No fruit means you are spiritually dead.
Jas 2:26; Just as the body is dead without breath, so also faith is dead without good works.

Hi B-A-C,

You are correct that no fruit means you are spiritually dead.

However, you incorrectly see "fruit" as being obedience to the law.
And I have asked of you and others here what level of so called "fruit"/obedience to the law is acceptable to God.
Is it perfect obedience (as described in James 2:10) or is it some lessor, yet acceptable, level of obedience to the law?

Alternatively, scripture tells us what fruit it is that we should have.
It's Christ in us, the firstfruits.
1Cor 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

So we see that our good works that shows our faith is to believe in Jesus (John 6:29), and in believing in Jesus we have Christ the firstfruits which makes us holy, Rom 11:16.
And by their fruits (Christ in us) you shall know them. In other words, those who are justified by faith in Christ without the deeds of the law, Rom 3:28

 

[DHC]

No matter who produces it, you or the Spirit, the fruit should be evident. No fruit means you are spiritually dead.
Jas 2:26; Just as the body is dead without breath, so also faith is dead without good works.

Hello B-A-C, I do appreciate the reply.

I do have issue with what you wrote.

"No matter who produces it, you or the Spirit, the fruit should be evident."


Here read an extract from a post by Barny.


1 Cor 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept.

So we see that our good works that shows our faith is to believe in Jesus (John 6:29),
and in believing in Jesus we have Christ the firstfruits which makes us holy, Rom 11:16.
And by their fruits (Christ in us) you shall know them.
In other words, those who are justified by faith in Christ without the deeds of the law, Rom 3:28


I am interested B-A-C, in your answers to the following questions.

1) B-A-C who drew you to Jesus?
2) Who created and sustains creation?
3) Who knitted you together in your mother's womb?
4) Who gave you your mind and heart?
5) Who gave you the Holy Spirit?
6) What is the greatest work a person can do?!
7) Who convicts you?
8) Who created the good works for you to stumble through?
9) Who reconciled you?
10) Obviously the thoughts you have now are from whose mind?
11) Exactly what "work" is it that you are ultimately responsible for?

So you wish to give credence to the ten commandments do you B-A-C?

Here's one of those for you B-A-C to consider.

"Thou shall honor the sabbath day."

Do you honor the sabbath day or is it merely a shadow.

Hebrews 4
9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also
rested from his works, as God did from His.
11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no
one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

An old testament shadow of the full reality granted by the soveriegn God,
Jesus Christ. If a person walks in the Spirit there is no law or commandment.
Jesus resides within to act and will to His good pleasure!
There is only the joy and peace that the sons of the light bask in.
A peaceful rest from the dead works of self righteouness.

Again B-A-C, what work is it that you do?

 

[papajim]

Hi B-A-C,

You are correct that no fruit means you are spiritually dead.

However, you incorrectly see "fruit" as being obedience to the law.
And I have asked of you and others here what level of so called "fruit"/obedience to the law is acceptable to God.
Is it perfect obedience (as described in James 2:10) or is it some lessor, yet acceptable, level of obedience to the law?

Alternatively, scripture tells us what fruit it is that we should have.
It's Christ in us, the firstfruits.
1Cor 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

So we see that our good works that shows our faith is to believe in Jesus (John 6:29), and in believing in Jesus we have Christ the firstfruits which makes us holy, Rom 11:16.
And by their fruits (Christ in us) you shall know them. In other words, those who are justified by faith in Christ without the deeds of the law, Rom 3:28

I'll answer that question for you Barny, it is perfect obedience and that is what we have in Christ. It is also the minimum.

 

[spirit1st]

The first fruits of GOD spirit are put in Our Spirit at salvation ! our flesh mind is hardly changed ! We can appear very carnal at salvation !
That Why He tells us we need our mind [Flesh mind ] RENEWED !


It still filled with all the bad thoughts from our old Man [Old spirit]


Eph_4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Col_3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;


1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

 

[DHC]

The first fruits of GOD spirit are put in Our Spirit at salvation ! our flesh mind is hardly changed ! We can appear very carnal at salvation !
That Why He tells us we need our mind [Flesh mind ] RENEWED !


It still filled with all the bad thoughts from our old Man [Old spirit]


Eph_4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Col_3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;


1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Excellent post as usual Spirit1st.

1 Corinthians 4
19 But I will come to you soon, if the Lord wills, and I shall find out,
not the words of those who are arrogant but their power.
20 For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power.
21 What do you desire? Shall I come to you with a rod, or with love and a spirit of gentleness?

2 Timothy 1
7 For God has not given us a spirit of timidity, but of power and love and discipline.

 

[Barny]

I'll answer that question for you Barny, it is perfect obedience and that is what we have in Christ. It is also the minimum.

I agree that the law requires perfect obedience for one to be righteous in it. That is the minimum standard for righteousness under the law. Hence we see that under the law all the world is guilty before God, Rom 3:19

Fortunately for us our faith is counted for righteousness instead, Rom 4:5. And this righteousness we have in Christ, without the deeds of the law, Rom 3:28.

It would be foolish for anybody to then turn back to the law, in any way, to determine righteousness. To do this one would only make themselves a transgressor/Sinner, Gal 2:18; as they would fail to perfectly obey the law.

 

[papajim]

I agree that the law requires perfect obedience for one to be righteous in it. That is the minimum standard for righteousness under the law. Hence we see that under the law all the world is guilty before God, Rom 3:19

Fortunately for us our faith is counted for righteousness instead, Rom 4:5. And this righteousness we have in Christ, without the deeds of the law, Rom 3:28.

It would be foolish for anybody to then turn back to the law, in any way, to determine righteousness. To do this one would only make themselves a transgressor/Sinner, Gal 2:18; as they would fail to perfectly obey the law.

Hello Barny I hope you had a fine weekend with family and friends,

Barny now that we have that cleared up. Does the law just disappear? or is there more yet? Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid; yea, we establish the law."

 

[papajim]

Hello B-A-C, I do appreciate the reply.

I do have issue with what you wrote.

"No matter who produces it, you or the Spirit, the fruit should be evident."


Here read an extract from a post by Barny.


1 Cor 15:20
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept.

So we see that our good works that shows our faith is to believe in Jesus (John 6:29),
and in believing in Jesus we have Christ the firstfruits which makes us holy, Rom 11:16.
And by their fruits (Christ in us) you shall know them.
In other words, those who are justified by faith in Christ without the deeds of the law, Rom 3:28


I am interested B-A-C, in your answers to the following questions.

1) B-A-C who drew you to Jesus?
2) Who created and sustains creation?
3) Who knitted you together in your mother's womb?
4) Who gave you your mind and heart?
5) Who gave you the Holy Spirit?
6) What is the greatest work a person can do?!
7) Who convicts you?
8) Who created the good works for you to stumble through?
9) Who reconciled you?
10) Obviously the thoughts you have now are from whose mind?
11) Exactly what "work" is it that you are ultimately responsible for?

So you wish to give credence to the ten commandments do you B-A-C?

Here's one of those for you B-A-C to consider.

"Thou shall honor the sabbath day."

Do you honor the sabbath day or is it merely a shadow.

Hebrews 4
9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also
rested from his works, as God did from His.
11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no
one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience.

An old testament shadow of the full reality granted by the soveriegn God,
Good morning DHC, I hope you had a great weekend,
I would like to enter into a study on the sabbath, would like to join me?
The very first thing Paul said was "There remains a sabbath rest." So to say that the sabbath is a "shadow" is not supported in these first few words. Instead Paul shows a parallel between the sabbath and the rest in Christ. By understanding the sabbath rest, the rest from all of our physical work, we see the gospel saying the identical message in resting from the works of the flesh. I understand that this is the whole purpose of God creating the sabbath on the seventh day of creation. To teach us to rest in the Lord.
I will wait for your response before I continue.

 

[Barny]

Ok, Barny now that we have that cleared up. Does the law just disappear? or is there more yet? Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid; yea, we establish the law."

Just a quick reply as it's getting late here in Australia.

The law does not disappear as they are the principles of God.
The law is good, just and holy, Rom 7:12.
Hence we likewise confirm and uphold that the law is good, just and holy.

And under the law all the world is guilty before God, Rom 3:19.
There are none that are righteous.
We needed a savior.

Hence we were offered a much more glorious ministry of the spirit/righteousness, 2Cor 3:8-11.
And our faith is counted for righteousness now, Rom 4:5.

So then why do you follow doctrines under the ministry of condemnation/death?
You still judge righteousness by deeds of the law.
You even admitted in an earlier post of failure to attain perfect obedience and having to repent to be restored to righteousness. This is not supported in scripture as well as the fact that being under the law to determine righteousness only makes you a sinner, Gal 2:18.

God's will for us is our sanctification, which we have through the offering of the body of Christ (Heb 10:10), and also to abstain from fornication, 1Thess 4:3.
This refers to fornication with Hagar/the law. And it's this fornication with the law that defiles the temple of the Holy Ghost.

 

[papajim]

Just a quick reply as it's getting late here in Australia.

The law does not disappear as they are the principles of God.
The law is good, just and holy, Rom 7:12.
Hence we likewise confirm and uphold that the law is good, just and holy.

And under the law all the world is guilty before God, Rom 3:19.
There are none that are righteous.
We needed a savior.

Hence we were offered a much more glorious ministry of the spirit/righteousness, 2Cor 3:8-11.
And our faith is counted for righteousness now, Rom 4:5.

So then why do you follow doctrines under the ministry of condemnation/death?
You still judge righteousness by deeds of the law.
You even admitted in an earlier post of failure to attain perfect obedience and having to repent to be restored to righteousness. This is not supported in scripture as well as the fact that being under the law to determine righteousness only makes you a sinner, Gal 2:18.

God's will for us is our sanctification, which we have through the offering of the body of Christ (Heb 10:10), and also to abstain from fornication, 1Thess 4:3.
This refers to fornication with Hagar/the law. And it's this fornication with the law that defiles the temple of the Holy Ghost.

If I sin Barny it is through either unbelief or rebellion and probably more rebellion than unbelief, I don't deny this, but it does seem that we are getting much closer in our understanding of the gospel.
Thank you Barny, now that I understand your position with the law I feel this great weight taken off of my shoulders and feel that this was far more for me than you. Thank you for your patients.

 

[B-A-C]

1) B-A-C who drew you to Jesus?
2) Who created and sustains creation?
3) Who knitted you together in your mother's womb?
4) Who gave you your mind and heart?
5) Who gave you the Holy Spirit?
6) What is the greatest work a person can do?!
7) Who convicts you?
8) Who created the good works for you to stumble through?
9) Who reconciled you?
10) Obviously the thoughts you have now are from whose mind?
11) Exactly what "work" is it that you are ultimately responsible for?

So you wish to give credence to the ten commandments do you B-A-C?

LOL, I am free will. I don't giive credence to the 10 commandments for saving me.
I just believe that loving our neighbors is what God wants us to do.

To answer your questions...
1. God drew me near, but I choose to accept him. He did not force me to.
2. Jesus
3. God
4. God
5. God, but I can choose to quench, grieve, and resist him as some people do.
6. Love God, and the second greatest is to love your neighbor.
7. The Holy Spirit
8. God
9. Jesus
10. As I said, I am not calvinist, I believe in free will. I make my own decisions. I am responsible for them.
11. All of the things God has asked me do, not just one individual thing I choose. To refuse any of them is to disobey God.

 

[Barny]

All of the things God has asked me do, not just one individual thing I choose. To refuse any of them is to disobey God.

Hi B-A-C,

Papajim has said that perfect obedience to the law is what God requires as the minimum standard of evidence of "imparted" righteousness.

I don't know what brakelite believes regarding God's minimum standard of evidence for "imparted" righteousness.

But I know that you have claimed that it does not have to be perfect obedience. Have you found any scriptures explaining details to support your belief?

 

[DHC]

"There remains a sabbath rest." So to say that the sabbath is a "shadow" is not supported in these first few words.
Instead Paul shows a parallel between the sabbath and the rest in Christ.
By understanding the sabbath rest, the rest from all of our physical work, we see the gospel saying the identical
message in resting from the works of the flesh. I understand that this is the whole purpose of God creating
the sabbath on the seventh day of creation. To teach us to rest in the Lord.
I will wait for your response before I continue.

Hello Papajim.

You stated that the sabbath rest in Christ was not a fulfillment
of the shadow of the seventh day rest in the O.T.

I would ask you Papajim to read the following;

Hebrews 4
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of
another day after that.
9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from
his works, as God did from His.
11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall,
through following the same example of disobedience.


Line 10, clearly declares that the rest in Christ is
a rest from his works. To say that this means a rest
from the works of the flesh would be inaccurate.

“As I swore in My wrath,
They shall not enter My rest,”

God's rest is clearly not a sabbath rest because it
refers to the entry into the rest. You will not enter
into this state or place unless you are obedient.

There is also another curiosity that you would need to
explain;

Matthew 12
12 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath,
and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of
grain and eat.
2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, look, your
disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.
5 Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the
temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?
6 But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.

As you would be aware Papajim, the disciples had committed
a capital offense against the law of God. They were law breakers,
Jesus was exempt, but the disciples had no exemption.

There can be only one explanation that I can think of to explain
this wicked act of disobedience!

The disciples were the royal priesthood in Christ, hence they
were exempt from the sabbath law. There is no other option to
explore.

I am interested in how you explain the disciples disobedience
to the law.

 

[papajim]

Hello Papajim.

You stated that the sabbath rest in Christ was not a fulfillment
of the shadow of the seventh day rest in the O.T.

I would ask you Papajim to read the following;

Hebrews 4
8 For if Joshua had given them rest, He would not have spoken of
another day after that.
9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God.
10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from
his works, as God did from His.
11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall,
through following the same example of disobedience.


Line 10, clearly declares that the rest in Christ is
a rest from his works. To say that this means a rest
from the works of the flesh would be inaccurate.

“As I swore in My wrath,
They shall not enter My rest,”

God's rest is clearly not a sabbath rest because it
refers to the entry into the rest. You will not enter
into this state or place unless you are obedient.

There is also another curiosity that you would need to
explain;

Matthew 12
12 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath,
and His disciples became hungry and began to pick the heads of
grain and eat.
2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, look, your
disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.
5 Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the priests in the
temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?
6 But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here.

As you would be aware Papajim, the disciples had committed
a capital offense against the law of God. They were law breakers,
Jesus was exempt, but the disciples had no exemption.

There can be only one explanation that I can think of to explain
this wicked act of disobedience!

The disciples were the royal priesthood in Christ, hence they
were exempt from the sabbath law. There is no other option to
explore.

I am interested in how you explain the disciples disobedience
to the law.

Thank you for engaging in this study DHC,
the only thing I denied is your claim that the sabbath has been done away with. I do recognize that Christ is our spiritual rest, but you have either ignored this passage that says there remains a sabbath rest or have reinterpreted to suit your own tradition. As I said Paul used the physical rest of the sabbath to teach that of the spiritual rest in Christ. There are other sabbaths that are written in ordinances that were a shadow and fulfilled Col 2:14-23, but the law of God is eternal and everlasting.
Verse 9. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. Here it is talking about the spiritual rest in Christ.
10. "for he (you and me) that is entered into His (Christ) rest" meaning that we have entered into His rest, (Christ's rest, or His righteousness) "and also hath ceased from his own works," (my works which is the works of the flesh, meaning sin, my own works is sin). "as God did from His."
Verse ten clearly states we rest from our works in His works. Another way of saying the old man is dead in Christ.

I find it eneresting how you hold the entrepretation of the Pharisee of how to keep the sabbath over the lawgivers (Jesus) intrepretation of keeping the sabbath. The pharisee was not inspired by God so why would you use their interpretation to conclude your interpretation? In fact they were so wicked they endevoured to crucify Christ and yet you use their interpretation of the law. You need to rethink your explanation.
All the deciples were doing was feeding themselves and you find this breaking the sabbath, because a wicked pharisee said it was unlawful. How sad.
Jesus said that He was Lord of the sabbath in verse 8 not the pharisees.

Verse 9 of chapter 12. And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue: And, behold, there ws a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him. And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out? How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawfl to do well on the sabbath days.
Here you see a contrast, the views of the pharisees and the views of Christ and yet you choose the views of the pharisees. The pharisees wanted to accuse Jesus for healing a man on the sabbath and you use their intrepretation of the law for your intrepretation. again, how sad.
Mat. 24:20 But pray ye that your light be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Jesus looks into the future of the flight of the Jews, here this prophecy was applied to the destruction of the Jerusalem in 70 A.D. but the deciples asked what would be the signs of His coming at the end of the world. Showing that the sabbath was still in effect, at the end of the world, but either way it was still future.

Another interesting point, none of laws of the orinances were a shadow of Christ until after the death of Christ, as we have seen at the death of Jesus the curtain between the Holy and Most Holy of the sanctuary was rent in half. So if what you have said would apply at all, (not that it does) it would have been at the death of Christ not during His life.

John in 96 A.D. was taken off in vision or in the spirit on the sabbath day. Rev. 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet." John at this time still considered the seventh day the sabbath.

Mark 2:27And he said unto them, the sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath. Here is something for you to think about, why was the sabbath made for man, for what purpose? I gave you the answer in the last post.
I will continue after your next response, I have to go to work.

 

[B-A-C]

But I know that you have claimed that it does not have to be perfect obedience. Have you found any scriptures explaining details to support your belief?

1 Jn 2:1; My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
Luke 11:4; 'And forgive us our sins, For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.'"
Psa 32:5; I acknowledged my sin to You, And my iniquity I did not hide; I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD"; And You forgave the guilt of my sin. Selah.
1 Jn 1:9; If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

 

[DHC]

All the deciples were doing was feeding themselves and you find this breaking the sabbath, because a wicked pharisee said it was unlawful. How sad.
Jesus said that He was Lord of the sabbath in verse 8 not the pharisees.

Hello Papajim.

No work is to be performed on the sabbath,
the sabbath is a day of rest!

Gathering sticks for a fire on the sabbath was
a capital offence. (Numbers 15:32)

Exodus 35:3
You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day.

No work, this includes plowing, reaping or harvesting of wheat.

Exodus 16:29
the Lord has given you the sabbath; therefore He gives you bread (manna)
for two days on the sixth day. Remain every man in his place; let no man go
out of his place on the seventh day.

Let every man remain at home on the sabbath.
This is not my interpretation Papajim, this is
the Lord's command. No gathering of manna
on the seventh day, that is why God gave them
a double serve of manna on the sixth day.

No preparation of food, no cooking, no carrying
of food, etc. No work of any nature is allowed
on the sabbath. You must remain at home or where
ever you may be at the start of the sabbath day.
You are not allowed to leave your house on the
sabbath Papajim.

You replied to my post Papajim and stated that;

"All the diciples were doing was feeding themselves
and you find this breaking the sabbath"

When you select and pick wheat kernels you have to
prepare the kernel by rubbing the outer husk away.
This is work, there is no doubt that the pharisees were
correct in their accusation Papajim.

In fact Papajim, Jesus agrees with the Pharisees, the
apostles, the chosen disciples were in fact breaking
the sabbath law. That is why Jesus alludes to King
David, when David entered the temple and did that
which was not lawful.

If you read the following text carefully you will find
what I stated is true.

Matthew 12
2 But when the Pharisees saw this, they said to Him, look, your
disciples do what is not lawful to do on a Sabbath.
5 Or have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath the
priests in the temple break the Sabbath and are innocent?

See Papajim, Jesus says, that the priests are exempt from
breaking the sabbath and so are the disciples. How did you
miss this point Papajim.

The disciples were "chosen" by Jesus, once chosen the
disciples are sanctified, they are set apart. These disciples
are royal priests in waiting, exempt from the requirements
of the law Papajim.