Thoughts on Romans 6

[B-A-C]

Romans 6. A cause for contention? This seems to be much debated, and open to many interpretations.
There are other passages that are debated for sure.

I include the last two verses of chapter 5 for context.

Rom 5:20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Rom 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

What do these two verses mean? That we can continue to sin if we choose to? (so that grace will increase)

This is similar to Romans 3:8
Rom 3:8 And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), "Let us do evil that good may come"? Their condemnation is just.

Is there a difference between committing a sin sometimes and living in sin?
Verse 2 above is talking about still living in sin.

Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Walk in newness of life. What does this mean? Only that we have eternal life?
Or that we should walk in a new way even now? Different from the old way we used to walk?

Rom 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
Rom 6:7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

What does "the likeness of his death" and "likeness of his resurrection" mean?
What does our old self being crucified (being dead) mean? "in order that our body of sin MIGHT be done away with.
So that we would no longer be slaves to sin. When you are someones slave you have to do what they tell you to do.
"Get me a drink slave". If you are no longer a slave, you get can get a drink when YOU want to.
We are no longer slaves of sin, but our sin-ful nature still commits sin sometimes. We don't sin because we have to, we sin because sometimes we choose to. Verse 7 says we are "freed" from sin. Does that mean we never sin, or that we are no longer slaves to sin?

Rom 6:8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
Rom 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

There is a lot here, but I think most of us agree, Jesus rose from the dead, death has no power over him,
"He died to sin", not his sin, but our sins. But the life he lives, he lives to God. What does that mean?
This is similar to 1 Cor 10:31
1 Cor 10:31 Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
I think it means live your life for God in everything you do. Whatever it is.

Rom 6:11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Rom 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
Rom 6:13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

Do not let sin reign, do not obey its lusts, do not use parts of your body (members) as instruments of unrighteousness. Use them as instruments of righteousness. Either sin reigns (Slavemaster)
or Jesus reigns (King). Again, this doesn't mean you never sin, it means you aren't a slave to sin.

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
Rom 6:16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Verse 14 makes it clear, we don't have let sin reign (be master) over us. But if we do sin,
we aren't held to the penalty of the law (death) we are under the penalty of grace (life through Jesus)
Verse 15 is very similar to Rom 3:8 ; and Rom 6:2 ; This question is asked for the third time.
Verse 16 answers the question by saying you are a slave to the one you keep on obeying consistently.

Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom 6:18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Verse 17 continues this thought, you used to be slaves to sin, but you became obedient from the heart.
When you love someone, you do things for them because you want to. Not because you have to.
You don't get them a glass of water because you HAVE to. You do it because you WANT to.

Rom 6:19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

If we keep practicing righteousness, it will result in sanctification. We are already sanctified from the point
of our spiritual standing (we are already saved at this point) but we aren't yet fully sanctified in our spiritual
condition. We learn to do righteousness by practicing it.

Rom 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
Rom 6:21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.

We should be ashamed of doing those things we did in our former "old self". These things lead to death.

Rom 6:22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

But the righteousness we practice in our "new self", results in sanctification and life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I may try to continue to Romans 7 depending on responses. Some verses to consider.

Rom 7:4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
Rom 7:5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.

 

[james1523]

There is a lot here, but I think most of us agree, Jesus rose from the dead, death has no power over him,
"He died to sin", not his sin, but our sins. But the life he lives, he lives to God. What does that mean?
This is similar to 1 Cor 10:31
1 Cor 10:31 Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
I think it means live your life for God in everything you do. Whatever it is.

Jesus still had a body of sin fashioned in Adam's likeness...but He did not sin. He died to sin, in the sense that Christ's inherited sin nature from Adam via Mary died on the cross.
Now some disagree with this and say Jesus did not have a sin nature, the sin nature is only passed down via the father through Adam.. but I think this is splitting hairs..when the bible refers to Adam.. it is not excluding Eve..as if it is only referring to the male... Adam and Eve are one in God's eyes, but Adam is the head.. so easier to just refer to Adam..
Jesus could not have been tempted if He did not have a sin nature. Even the devil would know this and not even try to tempt Him.
Jesus was both Son of God and Son of Man. Devil tempted Jesus not as a Son of God but as a Son of Man..Jesus never used his power as Son of God to defeat satan.. satan templted him to use his power... Jesus defeated satan as a man not as God.. so that we too as men can defeat satan.

 

[B-A-C]

Jesus never used his power as Son of God to defeat satan.. satan templted him to use his power... Jesus defeated satan as a man not as God.. so that we too as men can defeat satan.

I agree, I think this is why the name he called himself more than any other was "son of man". (over 80 times between the 4 gospels) The only difference being we sinned at some point, (I believe we still do)
and Jesus never did.

Heb 2:18 For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted.
Heb 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.
2 Cor 5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
1 Jn 3:5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.

 

[james1523]

Amen...good verses.. Jesus knows what it is to face temptation.. because He Himself had a nature like ours that could be tempted.

 

[spirit1st]

Jesus had a Perfect Flesh body !He never sinned in His entire life ! He was Perfect ! Until He took our sins upon His flesh ! At the death of His body 1 His spirit went to Hell to free as many captives that were willing to accept His sacrifice and Him as LORD! then He returned to his flesh !Which had been gorified ! It was again perfected and More !
God does not want any of us sinning ever !He hates sin ! Sin can still bring sickness and death to our flesh ! Some die young because of there sins ? but if we do sin and repent ? Then He will spare us the suffering in our flesh !

But if we sin and sin brongs sickness to our bodies !Even then we can be healed ! If we obey his scriptures ! As in james !

Jas 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Jas 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Not all sickness of course comes from us sinning !

We live in a sin defiled planet ! sickness is every where ! You understand it Only took One sin to destory this planet and everything on it 100% !So we see sin a killer ! He did not die to save this planet nor anything on it !

He died that we could be made New creatures ! Made Like HIM !

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

[Barny]

Romans 6. A cause for contention? This seems to be much debated, and open to many interpretations.
There are other passages that are debated for sure.

I include the last two verses of chapter 5 for context.
Rom 5:20 The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Rom 5:21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

What do these two verses mean? That we can continue to sin if we choose to? (so that grace will increase)

This is similar to Romans 3:8
Rom 3:8 And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), "Let us do evil that good may come"? Their condemnation is just.

Is there a difference between committing a sin sometimes and living in sin?
Verse 2 above is talking about still living in sin.

Firstly we should define "sin" to understand these verses.
Man's traditional view of sin is an ambiguous notion of it being wrongful behavior/lifestyle. This traditional view of sin causes misunderstanding of scripture where Christians incorrectly continue to see themselves as sinners in spite of the blood of Christ having cleansed/purged them of sin.

Here's some examples of God's definitions of "sin"
Transgression of the law, 1John 3:4
Unrighteousness, 1John 5:17
Unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, Mark 3:29

All the above definitions from scripture are rebellion against God. And we all know that the wages of sin is death.

B-A-C, you asked, about Rom 6:1,2, "What do these two verses mean? That we can continue to sin if we choose to? (so that grace will increase)". You also asked, "Is there a difference between committing a sin sometimes and living in sin?"
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Rom 6:2 confirms that Christians don't sin. We have "died" to sin. So HOW can we still live in it?
Likewise 1Pet 4:1, we've "ceased from sin", and 1John 3:9, "we cannot sin".

Rom 6:1 in saying "Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase" is spoken in the context of the surrounding verses about God's grace abounded over sin, Rom 5:20,

B-A-C, you are viewing Rom 6:1&2 from that ambiguous traditional view of sin as being wrongful behavior, and therefore claiming that Christians can still be charged with sin/wrongful behavior.

And there is no difference between sometimes verses living in "sin".
1Pet 4:18
if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
There are 2 groups described here.
Group 1: Righteous/saved
Group 2: ungodly and sinner. The unsaved.

Many scriptures such as the above shows we are either in one group OR the other.
Saved OR unsaved
Righteous OR sinner
Sheep OR goats
Wheat OR tares

Consider Rom 6:16,17
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine (gospel of Christ) which was delivered you.


Who do we obey/serve?
Either its the Spirit OR the flesh.

Rom 8:9 tells us that Christians are in the Spirit. We obey the Spirit (not the flesh).
Christians obey God's will.
"this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life:" John 6:40
Christians "obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine (gospel of Christ) which was delivered" to us ,Rom 6:17
And our works that shows our faith is believing in Jesus, John 6:40
And if we endure to the end, believing in Jesus, then that means we obeyed/served God. Or, as Rom 6:17 put it, "to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

Christians obeyed God's will. We believe in Jesus and thus our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5As a result our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3 and in Christ there is no sin, thus we cannot be charged with sin, Rom 8:33

But, anyone who turns to deeds of the law to establish righteousness, then they obey/serve the flesh instead. And in turning to the law they then make themselves sinners/transgressors, Gal 2:18 "if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor."

 

[B-A-C]

Firstly we should define "sin" to understand these verses.
Man's traditional view of sin is an ambiguous notion of it being wrongful behavior/lifestyle. This traditional view of sin causes misunderstanding of scripture where Christians incorrectly continue to see themselves as sinners in spite of the blood of Christ having cleansed/purged them of sin.

Here's some examples of God's definitions of "sin"
Transgression of the law, 1 John 3:4
Unrighteousness, 1 John 5:17
Unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9
Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, Mark 3:29

All the above definitions from scripture are rebellion against God. And we all know that the wages of sin is death.

You are correct, those are "some" examples. John 8:11, Jesus told the woman caught in adultery sin no more, therefore adultery is sin in Jesus eyes.
There are dozens of other things the Bible calls sin.

Rom 6:2 confirms that Christians don't sin. We have "died" to sin. So HOW can we still live in it?

This is a gross rewording or paraphrase.
Rom 6:2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
It doesn't say "how can we sin?" It says "how can we live in sin" Living in sin is committing the sames sins over and over again.

Likewise 1 Pet 4:1; e've "ceased from sin",

Another misquote taken out of context. I don't "we've ceased from sin"

(KJV)
1 Pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

1 Pet 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1 Pet 3:22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.
1 Pet 4:1 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,

Make your purpose to cease from sin because Jesus didn't sin. Jesus was the one who suffered in the flesh.
This continues on.

1 Pet 4:2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
1 Pet 4:3 For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries.

It says the will of God is to no longer follow the lusts of men, it says these things are sensuality, lusts, drinking, idolatries, etc...

And there is no difference between sometimes verses living in "sin".
1 Pet 4:18 if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
There are 2 groups described here.
Group 1: Righteous/saved
Group 2: ungodly and sinner. The unsaved.

Matt 9:11 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, "Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?"
Matt 9:12 But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.
Matt 9:13 "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Were sinners those who knew Jesus as the savior, or those who didn't?
Luke 6:32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Jesus only called unsaved sinners. He never said believers can't sin. In fact he said....
Luke 11:4 'And forgive us our sins, For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.'"
Why would he need to forgive our sins if we are already saved?

Jas 5:13 Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises.
Jas 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
Jas 5:15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
Jas 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

Obviously these people are believers in the body of Christ, (among you) that have elders in their church to pray over them in the name of the Lord.
Yet if they commit sins, they will be forgiven, they are told to confess their sins.

1 Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
Why would believers (little children) need to be warned not to sin? Why would they need an advocate "if anyone does sin" if they are already saved?

Christians obey God's will.
"this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life:" John 6:40

Is this the ONLY thing that is God's will? Again a partial truth.
1 Thes 5:18 in everything give thanks; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.
1 Thes 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit;
1 Thes 5:20 do not despise prophetic utterances.
1 Thes 5:21 But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
1 Thes 5:22 abstain from every form of evil.

1 Pet 2:13 Submit yourselves for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority,
1 Pet 2:14 or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.
1 Pet 2:15 For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.

1 Thes 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;
(Also see 1 Pet 4:2; )

 

[Barny]

You are correct, those are "some" examples. John 8:11, Jesus told the woman caught in adultery sin no more, therefore adultery is sin in Jesus eyes.
There are dozens of other things the Bible calls sin.

Hi B-A-C,

The examples scripture gives of "sin" all show us what disobedience/rebellion against God is. And we all know that the wages of sin is death.
So who do we serve and what do we obey?

Consider Rom 6:16, 17
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine (gospel of Christ) which was delivered you.

B-A-C, he doctrine you propose claims that some unknown level of obedience to the 10 commandments is required or else we're "of the devil" , 1John 3:8 and have not known Christ, 1John 3:6.
We discussed this view of yours over many posts and you never found any scripture to support your claim that some unknown level of obedience is required as proof of salvation.
But if you can now offer scripture defining what is "living in sin" / "practicing sin" , please do so.

Obedience is doing what one is told to do.
Partial obedience is not obedience
You speak of some ambiguous/unknown partial level of obedience, unto righteousness. This is not what Rom 6:16,17 says.

Instead, what scripture does reveal is that Christians have obeyed unto righteousness. We "have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine (gospel of Christ) which was delivered you."
And our "obedience unto righteousness" is also seen as our "faith is counted for righteousness", Rom 4:5

So in our obedience to the gospel of Christ/believing in Jesus, Christians serve the Spirit, and not the flesh.

Living in sin is committing the sames sins over and over again.

As I said above, we've discussed this previously and you were not able to explain what "living in sin",/ "practicing sin" is. As our previous discussions revealed, the "living in sin"/ "practicing sin" doctrine is clearly error doctrine with no foundation in scripture.

Another misquote taken out of context. I don't "we've ceased from sin"
(KJV)
1 Pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

1 Pet 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
1 Pet 3:22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.
1 Pet 4:1 Therefore, since Christ has suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same purpose, because he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,

Make your purpose to cease from sin because Jesus didn't sin. Jesus was the one who suffered in the flesh.
This continues on.

1 Pet 4:2 so as to live the rest of the time in the flesh no longer for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
1 Pet 4:3 For the time already past is sufficient for you to have carried out the desire of the Gentiles, having pursued a course of sensuality, lusts, drunkenness, carousing, drinking parties and abominable idolatries.

It says the will of God is to no longer follow the lusts of men, it says these things are sensuality, lusts, drinking, idolatries, etc..

.

You are putting your trust in ambiguous modern versions of the Bible. Our previous discussions about 1John 3:6-9 showed that you could not explain the failings of the doctrine you based on those ambiguous modern Bibles.

1Pet 4:1 KJV
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh (crucified), arm yourselves likewise with the same mind (our old man crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6 ): for he that hath suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6 ) hath ceased from sin;

This verse clearly states Christians have "ceased from sin". And this is confirmed by others scriptures too, as scripture confirms scripture.

As for those other scriptures you quoted, such as the "lusts of men", this speaks of rebellion against God by trying to establish your own righteousness by works instead of submitting to God's righteousness.

Matt 9:11 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, "Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?"
Matt 9:12 But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.
Matt 9:13 "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Were sinners those who knew Jesus as the savior, or those who didn't?
Luke 6:32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Jesus only called unsaved sinners. He never said believers can't sin. In fact he said....
Luke 11:4 'And forgive us our sins, For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.'"
Why would he need to forgive our sins if we are already saved?

Again, you misunderstand these scriptures. The unsaved are sinners. And when we receive Christ our sins are forgiven and we likewise show the same grace/love to others and forgive them.

We abide in Christ and in him there is no sin, 1John 3:5,6
In Christ we cannot sin, 1John 3:9

Jas 5:13 Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises.
Jas 5:14 Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
Jas 5:15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
Jas 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

Obviously these people are believers in the body of Christ, (among you) that have elders in their church to pray over them in the name of the Lord.
Yet if they commit sins, they will be forgiven, they are told to confess their sins.

Your claim here contradicts the many scriptures that say Christians cannot sin.
As Christ's sacrifice has cleansed/purged us of sin, why do you then interpret scripture to say that he has not cleansed/purged us of sin any better than the yearly sacrifices of bulls/goats?

Also, just a reminder that scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:13-15.

Let's consider James 5, KJV, and note the various people it addresses.
James 5:1
Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
James 5:5
Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
Here, for example, it's referring to the lost.

James 5:9
Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
This verse warns that we should not judge righteousness by works of the law, which is to grudge one against another. Remember if we turn back to the law to judge righteousness then you will be condemned as a sinner/transgressor yourself, Gal 2:18

James 5:14-16
Is any (spiritually) sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick (unsaved/spiritually sick) and the Lord shall raise him up (from being lost/sick/dead) and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be (spiritually) healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


This speaks of preaching the gospel for the salvation of the lost, that is those who are spiritually sick.
"By his stripes we are healed" Isa 53:5

1 Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone does sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
Why would believers (little children) need to be warned not to sin? Why would they need an advocate "if anyone does sin" if they are already saved?

As I said to you in another blog, the context of 1John 1 shows it refers to non-believers in sin of unbelief, John 16:9. Note how 1John 1 "bears witness", "declares", "eternal life", so that others "may have fellowship....with the Father and His Son Jesus Christ".

Non-believers includes those within the church who turn back to works of the law/unbelief. Some of the churches in Rev 2 and 3 were like this and God called upon them to repent and do the first works (believing in Jesus).

But, if you insist 1John 1 & 2 refers to Christians sinning then you are in fact saying that God contradicted Himself when giving us 1John 3:6-9.
Also, what definition of "sin" do you apply to your claim that 1John 1:8 and 1John 2:1 speaks of Christians?

 

[B-A-C]

Thanks for your input Barny, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Have a great day

1 Jn 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1 Jn 2:5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
1 Jn 2:6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

 

[Barny]

Thanks for your input Barny, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Have a great day

1 Jn 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1 Jn 2:5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
1 Jn 2:6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Yes you're correct, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

By the way, regarding 1John 2:3 "we keep his commandments", see 1John 3:22,23.
we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Unfortunately your claim that it speaks of the 10 commandments only gets you into trouble yourself. Scripture speaks of keeping the commandments, but you contradict this by saying that an unknown level of partial obedience means the same as keeping them.

And the fact that there is no scripture to explain what amount of partial obedience to the 10 commandments is acceptable enough as proof of salvation, then clearly the doctrine you follow is incorrect.

 

[DHC]

Hello B-A-C.

You will need to illustrate using the scriptures, that the "commandments" equals the "ten commandments"?

2 Corinthians 3
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, ...

Engraved on stone was no doubt the ten words you are referring to.

These ten are the ministry of death!

If you do not agree then please explain (2 Corinthians 3).

 

[james1523]

The issue is not what the commandments are..10, or 5 or 600 or 1000, but whether or not they are written on stone or on heart.. that is the difference.

 

[B-A-C]

By the way, regarding 1 John 2:3 "we keep his commandments", see 1 John 3:22, 23
we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

Unfortunately your claim that it speaks of the 10 commandments only gets you into trouble yourself. Scripture speaks of keeping the commandments, but you contradict this by saying that an unknown level of partial obedience means the same as keeping them

So.. in your opinion... what exactly is the difference between following the two verses you listed. Especially verse 23 after the word "and".

(KJV)
1 Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

and following the 10 commandments?

Rom 13:9; For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Mat 22:36; "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
Mat 22:37; And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Mat 22:38; "This is the great and foremost commandment.
Mat 22:39; "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Mat 22:40; "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Well Jesus did add that we should also love God first.

Mark 12:28; One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?"
Mark 12:29; Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;
Mark 12:30; AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'
Mark 12:31; "The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

 

[DHC]

So.. in your opinion... what exactly is the difference between following the two verses you listed. Especially verse 23 after the word "and".

(KJV)
1 Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

and following the 10 commandments?

Rom 13:9; For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Mat 22:36; "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
Mat 22:37; And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Mat 22:38; "This is the great and foremost commandment.
Mat 22:39; "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Mat 22:40; "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Well Jesus did add that we should also love God first.

Mark 12:28; One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?"
Mark 12:29; Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;
Mark 12:30; AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'
Mark 12:31; "The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

If you are a Jew then the recitation of the Mosaic Law may have some significance.

If you are a Gentile then the Mosaic Law is of no interest.

You have quoted the letter of the law B-A-C.

Romans 2:29
but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit,
not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

Romans 7:6
But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by,
so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

 

[B-A-C]

Thanks for your participation DHC.

If you are a Jew then the recitation of the Mosaic Law may have some significance.
If you are a Gentile then the Mosaic Law is of no interest.
You have quoted the letter of the law B-A-C.

I quoted Jesus, is he the letter of the law?

However this still doesn't answer my question, Even if Jesus is quoting the law "To love your neighbor"
how is this different from loving your neighbor in 1 Jn 3:23 that Barny says we should do?
If you want to disagree with Barny that's fine, but I ask, are there any commandments we should follow at all? Any rules at all?

 

[Barny]

So.. in your opinion... what exactly is the difference between following the two verses you listed. Especially verse 23 after the word "and".

(KJV)
1 Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1 Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

and following the 10 commandments?

Rom 13:9; For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Mat 22:36; "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
Mat 22:37; And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
Mat 22:38; "This is the great and foremost commandment.
Mat 22:39; "The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
Mat 22:40; "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

Well Jesus did add that we should also love God first.

Mark 12:28; One of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?"
Mark 12:29; Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD;
Mark 12:30; AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.'
Mark 12:31; "The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these."

The difference is that the 10 commandments, being part of the law, is about establishing your own righteousness.
And we see that under the law the whole world is guilty before God, Rom 3:19

Take the doctrine you follow for example.
Whilst it's not exactly the same as that of the Pharisees, it seems to be a mix of grace and works of the law.
Whilst you profess grace, you add to this the claim that some unknown level of partial obedience to the law/10 commandments is required or else your considered to be "practicing sin" and are thus of the devil and have not known Christ, 1John 3:6,8
The doctrine you follow denies that we have been sanctified by Christ's one offering and instead says that we have to go through a process to gradually sanctify us.


But, scripture contradicts the doctrine you follow and shows instead that by believing in Jesus we have been made:
Holy, Rom 11:16
Sanctified, Heb 10:10
Perfected, Heb 10:14
Righteous, Rom 4:5
Cannot sin, 1John 3:9

So 1John 3;22,23 , the first commandment of believing in Jesus, this makes us holy, sanctified, perfected, righteous and cannot sin.
In our keeping this first commandment our body is dead because of sin, Rom 8:9. Hence our righteousness, etc is not judged/determined by it's behavior.
And in believing in Jesus we are not actually believing in him. Instead we see that in believing in Jesus we are actually believing in God the Father.
John 12:44
Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

And as for commandment number 2, that we love one another, we see that this often does translate in a Christian's behavior improving, but we are not going to see it being perfect, in this imperfect physical world.
But importantly, where we do see it working most of all is in our love/grace towards one another by our forgiving one another 7x70. Just as God loved and forgave us so we likewise love and forgive one another.

Unfortunately there are those within the church who do not show any grace/love. Instead they judge others as unsaved based purely on their behavior/lifestyle. In other words they judge according to the law. And as scripture shows us, such people will likewise not be forgiven.

 

[DHC]

Thanks for your participation DHC.
I quoted Jesus, is he the letter of the law?

However this still doesn't answer my question, Even if Jesus is quoting the law "To love your neighbor"
how is this different from loving your neighbor in 1 Jn 3:23 that Barny says we should do?
If you want to disagree with Barny that's fine, but I ask, are there any commandments we should follow at all? Any rules at all?

Thank you B-A-C for your reply.

I welcome the invitation to provide clarity to a grossly misunderstood
subject, i.e. "the letter of the law".

Concentrating on the written law or letter of the law is simply an
attempt by an individual to establish their own merit before God.
Following the preset guide lines in a futile attempt to establish their
own self righteousness.

How can a person look at any law and obey it, the law reveals our failings.

No written law could ever be obeyed, it simply exists to bring you to your knees.

The law directly points to the messiah and so do the prophets. In fact,
the entire Old testament is the groundwork for the arrival of the King.

Let us view the equivalent Mosaic law that you cited.

Leviticus 19
18 You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children
of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.


Probably the most slamming of all the commandments in the Mosaic law.

Love is the one criteria that does not exist anywhere in human history.

This commandment alone exposes all the evil inherent in mankind.

If love was the currency of the world then we are all bankrupt beggars.

Love is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, this means that the ability to love
does not exist within our nature. Love is a result of the interaction
of the Spirit of God within us.

Galatians 5:22
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long suffering, kindness,
goodness, faithfulness.

We cannot manufacture love for others it is a fruit, a product
of God within us. This love is the great sanctification process
performed by the great surgeon on our hearts, the Holy Spirit.

Observing the letter of the law will only end in tears.

Observing Christ will only ever bring joy and immortality.

Surely B-A-C you understand that Jesus was speaking to
those under the law. So Jesus quoted the law to illustrate
that no one was entering the kingdom of God except
through Him. Jesus amplified the law to such an extent
no one could dare entertain the thought that justification
was possible outside of the messiah.