What does Jesus mean when he says

[fhnl13f]

"For if we sin willfully " This means you bring yourself back under the law and then are found a transgressor.

You have to do a lot of twisting to say that this means bring yourself under the law. I require no proof of salvation from anyone. The proof is in Your love for God, love for your neighbor and the words that you speak because out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. If I see someone breaking a commandment its not for me to judge because breaking a commandment doesn't mean that you don't love God or your neighbor, it simply means you slipped, but you can repent at anytime.

I would like to know your position on repentance. Because I think that when we do wrong that we need to repent, turn a 180 and start doing right. I'll try to explain the way that I understand it with scripture.

2Cor 7:10
10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Paul speaking to the church at Corinth tells them that he is happy that his first letter brought them to repentance unto salvation. When he wrote the first letter they were already called a church of God, so they had salvation through Christ, but he was correcting them so that they would repent. He then goes on in chapter 12 to say that some of the members of the church have sinned and still not repented.

2Cor 12:21
21[And] lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and [that] I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Jesus tells Ephesus, Pergamos, Sardis, and Ladocia to repent. Pergamos He says has held fast to His name and not denied His faith, but he tells them to repent for transgressions of the Law. Sardis is told to repent but there are some who have not defiled their garments, which would suggest that the others had defiled their garments. To defile a garment it has to be clean to start with so they were made clean and became defiled. Now what I hear you saying, correct me if I misunderstand you, but I hear you saying that there is no need for repentance and it seems like you even make repentance out to be a bad thing.

Rom 3:19 "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

read on down to the end of the chapter, and I don't think that anyone is under the law. Under the law would imply under the curse or penalty of the law. All that I'm saying is that we Love God by keeping His commandments. When Jesus said love God with all your heart, mind and soul; we do this by keeping His commandments. We don't keep them because we have to or we die and go to hell, we do it because it pleases Him. I'm not talking about legalism I'm talking about obedience. How can you say that you love God if you don't care about the things that He cares about?

And I really don't appreciate how you guys keep telling me I don't understand something. I know what I understand and I'm sure you know what you understand. What I don't understand is you and what you don't understand is me? So please stop talking in a condescending tone because I don't worship you, nor you me, So I am free to believe the bible as it is revealed to me and the only one that can reveal it is the Holy Spirit. You can talk down to me until you're blue in the face and you may be right the whole time, but if the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal it to me then you're just being rude for nothing. I believe the Spirit would speak through us better if we are speaking in love and respecting each other as children of God and students of His Word.

As far as doctrine goes I leave that to the theologians, I'm not a student of religion I'm a student of the bible and the only doctrine that I follow is the one that Jesus spoke. "In the mouth of two witnesses a thing shall be established" so the rule that I have and will always follow is that if you can't find it in the bible twice then its not a doctrine. A good example that I always use, because most people agree that it's a faulty doctrine is the handling of serpents and drinking of poison. There are religions that teach this but its not found twice. People use the fact that Paul was bitten by a serpent and it didn't harm him. This is true but they are forgetting another rule of interpreting scripture. God is constant and unchanging so the bible will not contradict itself. "Thou shall not tempt God" two witnesses, God himself and Jesus both established this doctrine and it contradicts going out and picking up snakes just to prove that you can. So if you don't find something in the bible twice or if you find just one verse that contradicts your doctrine then your doctrine is faulty. At least that is the way I understand it.

 

[fhnl13f]

That is exactly what I've been saying in almost every post. If you are walking by the spirit of love then you will not break the commandments. If you find yourself breaking the commandments then you know something is wrong in your life. Go and check my earlier posts. I almost posted word for word what you just said.

 

[clark thompson]

Go and sin no more?

Does he mean be sinless?

or try to not sin?

It means that while we should try not to commit sin our sin that we have commit is under Jesus' blood so we as believers are sin less in Father's eyes because of the cross

 

[Barny]

Barny,
The ten commandments is about love I think this is the point that you are missing, it is through love that we fulfill the law. If we love our brother we will not steal from him, or kill him or even hate him there is no love in hate. We will not steal from those that we love, and we will certainly honor our parents if we love them, and so on with the six commandments that refer to man. Why did God give us the sabbath day, the seventh day of creation? It was about love, a day that was set aside for us to spend with Him and so on with the other three that pertain to God. Love is the key ingrediant of the law! When we partake of God's love we fulfill the law, this is the sanctifaction process learning love.

Hi papajim,

The 10 commandments are part of the law. The law is referred to with the following labels:
Law of sin and death, Rom 8:2
Law of Righteousness, Rom 9:31
Ministry of Condemnation, 2Cor 3:9
Ministry of Death, 2Cor 3:7

Other aspects to consider about the law, are:
The law is good, just and holy, Rom 7:12
The law is good IF a man use it lawfully, 1Tim 1:8
Sin is transgression of the law, 1John 3:4
And the wages of sin is death.
The law required perfect obedience, James 2:10
"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin". Rom 3:19

I agree with you that we should love one another. This is the commandment of Jesus.
A NEW commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. John 13:34

Here we see a NEW commandment from Jesus. He's not talking about the old 10 commandments/law, with it's death penalty for even one transgression.

So what are Jesus' commandments?
And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave uscommandment.

These NEW commandments above are under the New Testament. The NEW law/ministry we're now under is referred to with the following labels:
The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, Rom 8:2
The law of liberty, James 1:25
The ministry of the Spirit, 2Cor 3:8
The ministry of Righteousness, 2Cor 3:9

Other aspects about this NEW law Christians are under:
There is no condemnation for those in Christ, Rom 8:1
Satan the accuser cannot charge you with sin anymore, Rom 8:33
Thus we've ceased from sin, 1Pet 4:1
We cannot sin, 1John 3:9
Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5
We're sanctified by Christ's one offering, Heb 10:10
We're perfected, Heb 10:14
We're holy, Rom 11:16

There is quite a contrast between the old and new laws, as the scripture references above show.
Under the new law, love/grace/forgiveness/life everlasting is offered.
Under the old law/10commandment, it was condemnation and death for all mankind.

We still see this same old message of condemnation/death being preached today, but mixed with grace. It's a lukewarm gospel mixing grace with works of the law. It says we're saved by grace BUT, if you don't keep the commandments then you lost. This lukewarm gospel speaks of grace/love but demands an ambiguous level of obedience to the old law/10 commandments or else condemnation and death results. Under this lukewarm gospel Satan can still charge Christians with "sin" in spite of God having cleansed/purged them of sin by the blood of Christ.

Rev 3:16-22 explains how God feels about being lukewarm and He calls on the lukewarm to repent.

Anyway, I do agree papajim that we should love one another. That was the NEW commandment of Jesus. I'm just wary of false gospels that try to deceive others back under the law. Remember, "a little leaven (doctrines of works of the law, Matt 16:12 ) leavens the whole lump" Gal 5:9.
God gives many warnings to Christians to abstain from fornication with Hagar/the law.
Believe Him.

 

[Barny]

You have to do a lot of twisting to say that this means bring yourself under the law.

Please read my earlier post again. There is no twisting of what Heb 10:26 says. I have offered scripture to back everything up, including the definition of sin and how someone can make themselves a sinner. God's word explains it all. Scripture confirms scripture.

I would like to know your position on repentance. Because I think that when we do wrong that we need to repent, turn a 180 and start doing right. I'll try to explain the way that I understand it with scripture.

2Cor 7:10
10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Paul speaking to the church at Corinth tells them that he is happy that his first letter brought them to repentance unto salvation. When he wrote the first letter they were already called a church of God, so they had salvation through Christ, but he was correcting them so that they would repent. He then goes on in chapter 12 to say that some of the members of the church have sinned and still not repented.

2Cor 12:21
21[And] lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and [that] I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Jesus tells Ephesus, Pergamos, Sardis, and Ladocia to repent. Pergamos He says has held fast to His name and not denied His faith, but he tells them to repent for transgressions of the Law. Sardis is told to repent but there are some who have not defiled their garments, which would suggest that the others had defiled their garments. To defile a garment it has to be clean to start with so they were made clean and became defiled. Now what I hear you saying, correct me if I misunderstand you, but I hear you saying that there is no need for repentance and it seems like you even make repentance out to be a bad thing..

Repentance is a good thing and it is a 180 degree turn around, as you say.
But we differ on what the repentance is about.
Heb 6:1 tells us that it's repentance of "Dead works".
Heb 6:4-6 shows that repentance is a ONCE ONLY event.

But you see repentance in regards to our failings in behavior and the repentance is often done over and over and over again and again....Etc. That's not repentance.

Regarding the scriptures you quoted above, they do not refer to physical behavior. For example the fornication is referring to SPIRITUAL fornication with Hagar/the law, Gal 4:24. 1Cor 5 speaks more explicitly about this spiritual fornication with Hagar that was being tolerated within the church at Corinth.

When reading scriptures we need to consider that God's word is SPIRITUALLY discerned.
1Cor 2:13-16
"These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.


.

All that I'm saying is that we Love God by keeping His commandments. When Jesus said love God with all your heart, mind and soul; we do this by keeping His commandments. We don't keep them because we have to or we die and go to hell, we do it because it pleases Him. I'm not talking about legalism I'm talking about obedience. How can you say that you love God if you don't care about the things that He cares about?.

I came to my understanding of what you believe because you said "Any Christian that claims to walk by the spirit and then goes and willfully breaks a commandment is a liar and does not Love God "
Such arguments about willful sin are usually based on Heb 10:26. And this verse shows that those who do willful sin are lost.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but were you not thinking of Heb 10:26 when you spoke of willful sin and any doing this is a "liar who do not love God"

And I really don't appreciate how you guys keep telling me I don't understand something. I know what I understand and I'm sure you know what you understand. What I don't understand is you and what you don't understand is me? So please stop talking in a condescending tone because I don't worship you, nor you me, So I am free to believe the bible as it is revealed to me and the only one that can reveal it is the Holy Spirit. You can talk down to me until you're blue in the face and you may be right the whole time, but if the Holy Spirit doesn't reveal it to me then you're just being rude for nothing. I believe the Spirit would speak through us better if we are speaking in love and respecting each other as children of God and students of His Word.

Sorry, no offense intended.
But it's not uncommon to find people saying to each other that they misunderstand something. This is not being condescending.
And you are correct, it's the Holy Spirit that reveals scripture understanding to us.
Christians share spiritual truths with each other and we often differ as to when we're ready for that spiritual understanding. In my early years as a Christian I often misunderstood a lot. And I still have more to learn from scripture.

As far as doctrine goes I leave that to the theologians, I'm not a student of religion I'm a student of the bible and the only doctrine that I follow is the one that Jesus spoke. "In the mouth of two witnesses a thing shall be established" so the rule that I have and will always follow is that if you can't find it in the bible twice then its not a doctrine. A good example that I always use, because most people agree that it's a faulty doctrine is the handling of serpents and drinking of poison. There are religions that teach this but its not found twice. People use the fact that Paul was bitten by a serpent and it didn't harm him. This is true but they are forgetting another rule of interpreting scripture. God is constant and unchanging so the bible will not contradict itself. "Thou shall not tempt God" two witnesses, God himself and Jesus both established this doctrine and it contradicts going out and picking up snakes just to prove that you can. So if you don't find something in the bible twice or if you find just one verse that contradicts your doctrine then your doctrine is faulty. At least that is the way I understand it.

You are correct that scripture confirms scripture.
I would respectfully suggest however not to place your trust in the understanding of theologians and instead stick to your earlier claim that it's the Holy Spirit who gives you understanding. Consider 1John 2:27
But the anointing (Christ in us) which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

 

[papajim]

Barny I agree with most of what you say and it is backed by scripture, this is jusification (imputed righteousness of Christ) and is given to everyone that excepts Jesus into thier heart. That first step is a step of faith and a willingness to change as they are moved by the Holy Spirit.
I agree that anyone trying to establish thier own rightesouness by keeping the law is still under the law. An apple can only produce apples, a sinner can only produce sin no matter how hard he tries to keep the law. Righteousness has to come from above, we have no righteousness within ourselves.

Now we have to look at the imparted righteousness of Christ (sanctifaction) which is the change that comes from within and shows in our outward actions. When we are born again we are just babies in the faith, but we don't stay that way we grow in faith and our actions grow accordingly. Keeping the law is not a product of our own actions it is a product of faith working in us. I believe that is where the trouble with christians and the law are, christians think that they have to keep the law which is still a work of the flesh, verses, the works of Christ working the law into us. There are two sides to the law, disobedience which leads to sin and death, and the righteousness of the law which is love that is imparted to us, which is the work of Christ in us and not our own works. The Pharisees had that problem while they were making boast of the law the love in the law was far from them so when the Messiah came in the flesh they didn't recognize Him.

As far as the Laodacian church is concerned if you are saying that they are trying to keep the law and it makes them rich in thier own mind, when they are poor, wretched and naked I also agree.

 

[fhnl13f]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but were you not thinking of Heb 10:26 when you spoke of willful sin and any doing this is a "liar who do not love God"

No I wasn't speaking about Heb 10:26, I speaking of several verses jumbled together. "why do you call me lord and don't do what I say" , "many will come to me in that day and say Lord Lord we cast out demons and did signs and wonders in your name, And He told them depart from me you lawbreakers" (paraphrasing) I haven't always believed this way. I used to believe exactly the same way that you do, but for the past year and a half I have been studying Revealtions and pretty much all of the passages on end time prophecy. I came to the understanding that we are all called to repent before the rapture. Those who don't repent will go through God's wrath for refinement and testing. I don't mean all people but the majority. I posted another thread about it that you might find interesting (I'm not sure if you will or not) but it might give you a different perspective on things anyway.

talkjesus.com/evidence-bible-prophecy/44492-revelatons-different-perspective.html#.USy_AVfeD_0

I would respectfully suggest however not to place your trust in the understanding of theologians

I agree, I wasn't saying that I listen to theologians, I was saying that I leave doctrine to them. The Holy Spirit is our teacher and theologians study religion which I'm not interested in at all. I go to church to be with other Christians and serve, not because I need to learn the rules and traditions that they lay down for me.

After reading Heb 10:26 I still don't see it the way that you say. I also don't see the Law as bondage. I see justification by the Law as bondage of Hagar, but I don't see that relating to any references of fornication. I hope that you're not misunderstanding me about my view on the commandments. I don't believe that we are justified or saved by them. Jesus Himself said

Matt 5:19
19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus says that the person who breaks and teaches others to break will be called the least in the kingdom, but the point is that they are still in the kingdom. The weren't saved by breaking or not breaking commandments. All I've been trying to get across is that you can not break a commandment in Love. There is not one commandment that applies to us that we would break if we are walking in Love.

In 2 Timothy we are told "to study to show ourself approved" and that "all scripture is inspired and profitable for instruction in righteousness". My point is that there was no New Testament floating around then, and the scripture that all of the early church taught out of, witnessed by, lived by and defended with their lives was the Old Testament. The torah and the prophets is all they had, now days we try to say that this verse in Hebrews is talking about that verse in 1 John and 2 Peter is talking about Matthew, but the truth is that they are all talking about the Old testament. Sure Paul wrote most of it but all of the information that He had came from the Old Testament, Holy Spirit and the gospel of Jesus from the disciples. He was a very well educated Pharisee and His faith came by the Word that was available to Him at the time.

 

[DHC]

No I wasn't speaking about Heb 10:26, I speaking of several verses jumbled together. "why do you call me lord and don't do what I say" , "many will come to me in that day and say Lord Lord we cast out demons and did signs and wonders in your name, And He told them depart from me you lawbreakers" (paraphrasing) I haven't always believed this way..

Hello fhnl13f.

Your post was a good reply.

"I see justification by the Law as bondage of Hagar, but I don't see that relating to any references of fornication."

Well said fhnl3f, a reasonable reply but not an unexpected reply.

I am not conducting a personal attack upon you
just presenting possible alternate interpretations.
Feel free to respond, all friendly comments are
welcome.

I will start from the beginning of your post #267.

In line 1 you said, "many will come to me in that day...".

I have provided some additional verses from Matthew 7 for the sake of context.

Matthew 7

13 “Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction,
and there are many who enter through it.
14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. (gate = Jesus)

This is a veiled Gospel message, hope you agree.

Now onto your quotation;

21 Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter
the kingdom of heaven,but he who does the will of My Father
who is in heaven will enter.
22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not
prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and
in Your name perform many miracles?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart
from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

This is the important part fhnl3f, "who does the will of My Father...will enter"

What is the will of the Father?

John 6:40
For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds
the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself
will raise him up on the last day.”

Only believers in Jesus fulfill the will of the Father.
Not people who just use the "name" of Jesus but do
not believe in Him, remember the sons of Sceva.

Acts 19
13 But also some of the Jewish exorcists, who went from place to place
, attempted to name over those who had the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus,
saying, “I adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches.”
14 Seven sons of one Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said to them, “I recognize Jesus, and I know about Paul, but who are you?”
16 And the man, in whom was the evil spirit, leaped on them and subdued all of them and overpowered them,
so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

Now we view the next verse in Matthew 7 in context;

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared
to a wise man who built his house on the rock. (the rock = Jesus)

If the house is not on the rock, if you do not believe in Jesus then
the house will not survive the storm.

As far as I can see these verses are simply presenting the
Gospel. In fact the quotation is from a Gospel, the good
news about Jesus Christ.

 

[Barny]

Barny I agree with most of what you say and it is backed by scripture, this is jusification (imputed righteousness of Christ) and is given to everyone that excepts Jesus into thier heart. That first step is a step of faith and a willingness to change as they are moved by the Holy Spirit.
I agree that anyone trying to establish thier own rightesouness by keeping the law is still under the law. An apple can only produce apples, a sinner can only produce sin no matter how hard he tries to keep the law. Righteousness has to come from above, we have no righteousness within ourselves.

Now we have to look at the imparted righteousness of Christ (sanctifaction) which is the change that comes from within and shows in our outward actions. When we are born again we are just babies in the faith, but we don't stay that way we grow in faith and our actions grow accordingly. Keeping the law is not a product of our own actions it is a product of faith working in us. I believe that is where the trouble with christians and the law are, christians think that they have to keep the law which is still a work of the flesh, verses, the works of Christ working the law into us. There are two sides to the law, disobedience which leads to sin and death, and the righteousness of the law which is love that is imparted to us, which is the work of Christ in us and not our own works. The Pharisees had that problem while they were making boast of the law the love in the law was far from them so when the Messiah came in the flesh they didn't recognize Him.

As far as the Laodacian church is concerned if you are saying that they are trying to keep the law and it makes them rich in thier own mind, when they are poor, wretched and naked I also agree.

I agree that Christians should love one another. And one way that is demonstrated is by forgiving 7x70. This is how God's love/grace was revealed to us.

In this physical life we each have our unique weaknesses/failings and circumstances. In addition we are all at different stages of growth in our walk as Christians. With this in mind, as well as our love for one another, we continue to forgive 7x70. Therefore we should never be preaching that if anyone's behavior/lifestyle does not measure up then they are lost. Nor should we be preaching that you must keep the 10 commandments or else your lost. Such doctrines contradict the gospel of grace.

I have heard about the "imparted righteousness" doctrine before. I understand it's an Adventist doctrine.
What I found with the Adventists is that they are a varied group. Some are lukewarm, preaching grace mixed with condemnation/death for disobedience to the 10 commandments/Law, whilst others seem to reject this view and seem to accept God's gospel of grace.

I disagree with the claim that sanctification is a process through change coming from within, resulting in Christians being able to keep the law. This is not supported in scripture. I realize Adventists do offer some scripture to try to justify this "imparted righteousness" doctrine, but their understanding of those scriptures is incorrect.

Consider Heb 10:10 on how we were sanctified.
By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

As we see above, sanctification is not a process. It came "through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ"
So we should not be saying that we're not sanctified yet, when in fact God says we "have been" sanctified.

And likewise we should not be saying we're still unclean with sin after God has cleansed us by the blood of Christ.
This is why scripture says that only past sin was dealt with at the cross, Rom 3:25. After that there is no more sin. We've "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1, "cannot sin", 1John 3:9. Satan the accuser can no longer charge us with sin, Rom 8:33.

The "imparted righteousness" doctrine is still calling unclean what God has cleansed. It denies God has cleansed us with the blood of Christ until a process shows physical evidence of sanctification. This error doctrine still has Christians being charged with sin in spite of God saying "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.", Rom 8:33

Regarding the churches in Revelations, just a brief summary of them below:
Ephesus: They left their first love/works, which is believing in Jesus. They had fallen from grace.
Smyrna: God is ok with this group.
Pergamos: Their mixing with the wrong crowd that preach the law/committing spiritual fornication with Hagar, Gal 4:24. Christians should not fellowship with such people, 1Cor 5:11,13
Thyatira: This group were likewise mixing with the wrong crowd who were preaching the law/committing fornication with Hagar.
Sardis: They were falling away from God's grace. Their works (believing in Jesus, John 6:29 ) were not perfect.
Philadelphia: God's ok with this group
Laodiceans: This is the lukewarm group. They're mixing grace with works of the law.

 

[Barny]

I haven't always believed this way. I used to believe exactly the same way that you do,.

Interestingly I used to believe similar to you when I was a young Christian but then later changed as I received understanding through the Holy Spirit.

I posted another thread about it that you might find interesting (I'm not sure if you will or not) but it might give you a different perspective on things anyway.

Thanks for the invite. I doubt if I'll have the time though. I struggle to fit in the few topics I do get involved in anyway, plus gazing for long periods at a computer screen is not helpful for my back. Whenever I do sit too long in front of a computer my back suffers for it later.

After reading Heb 10:26 I still don't see it the way that you say. I also don't see the Law as bondage. I see justification by the Law as bondage of Hagar, but I don't see that relating to any references of fornication. I hope that you're not misunderstanding me about my view on the commandments. I don't believe that we are justified or saved by them. Jesus Himself said

I'm happy to hear that you say that we're not justified by works.
But, I am wondering what you think of the willful sin spoken of in Heb 10:26. Those who do it are condemned. Is your understanding of Heb 10:26 that if a Christian willfully disobeys the 10 commandments that they are lost?
If so then this would contradict your claim that we're not justified by works of the law.

As for the law, to be under it is to be in bondage. To be under it you then make yourself a sinner, Gal 2:18. And the wages of sin is death. This is what being under the law holds for mankind.

BUT, under the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, there is no condemnation/death. Our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5
We've been cleansed of sin by the blood of Christ, thus we've "ceased from sin", 1Pet 4:1, "cannot sin", 1John 3:9. Satan the accuser can no longer charge us with sin, Rom 8:33.
Under this new law the commandments we keep are seen in 1John 3:23:
1: Believe in Jesus,
2: Love one another

 

[fhnl13f]

But, I am wondering what you think of the willful sin spoken of in Heb 10:26. Those who do it are condemned. Is your understanding of Heb 10:26 that if a Christian willfully disobeys the 10 commandments that they are lost?

They are saved by believing Jesus is their sacrifice for sin and making Him Lord of their life and walking Love. If a person follows the commandments naturally without knowing them thats fine because they are written on our hearts, but if at any time you find yourself in violation of the commandments then there is something wrong with you life. You aren't walking by the spirit if you are breaking the commandments without any regret. If you lie to someone and don't feel a tug on your heart then maybe you should fall on your face and ask for repentance and ask God to give you a soft heart and make you sensitive to the things of the Spirit because obviously you've hardened your heart to the things that He hates. The same goes for any other of the commandments. I don't say that it condemns you to hell, I say that they are a guide for our lives to know that we are walking right. Faith comes by hearing the Word and if you read the Word then you will know that His law is perfect and every time someone is messing up in the bible it's because they didn't obey His law. We are told to Love God with all of our heart, soul and mind and that means loving what He loves, we are told to love our neighbor and that means serving them and putting them before us. If you are walking in love then you will never break a commandment.

A lot of people get saved at a very early age in the church. And with the attitude of "I'm saved so I can live how I want now" causes people to be at ease. A little thing like a lie at first is a big thing that hurts your spirit but if done often enough you become numb to it. I know because I was saved at 12 and lived like hell for 18 years before I wanted to make Jesus my Lord. I still mess up and not saying that I'm perfect, but when I decided to actually make Him Lord of my life and to Love the things that He Loves and hate the things that He hates then I became closer with Him. It did change my life. Walking down the isle give me a good feeling for a few months but because I never made Him Lord I fell away. I know that my personal experience doesn't apply to everyone. I think people that get saved at a later age are going into it knowing how bad the world is and knowing that they want something better. Walking in the spirit of Love is the only way to maturity and like I said if you are walking in the spirit you won't break commandments without regard.

 

[Barny]

They are saved by believing Jesus is their sacrifice for sin and making Him Lord of their life and walking Love. If a person follows the commandments naturally without knowing them thats fine because they are written on our hearts, but if at any time you find yourself in violation of the commandments then there is something wrong with you life. You aren't walking by the spirit if you are breaking the commandments without any regret. If you lie to someone and don't feel a tug on your heart then maybe you should fall on your face and ask for repentance and ask God to give you a soft heart and make you sensitive to the things of the Spirit because obviously you've hardened your heart to the things that He hates. The same goes for any other of the commandments. I don't say that it condemns you to hell, I say that they are a guide for our lives to know that we are walking right.

It's good to see you kept to the gospel of grace in your answer.

But I'm somewhat confused as to what your answer is to my question about Heb 10:26 regarding those who sin willfully. This verse says that there is no more sacrifice for their sin and they face judgement and fiery indignation that shall devour the adversaries. If you think it refers to physical behavior then how do you explain this outcome of damnation after you stated that they're saved by grace?

It's okay if you don't understand Heb 10:26. I find it's better to say I don't understand a particular scripture than to speak beyond my current understanding.

 

[fhnl13f]

But I'm somewhat confused as to what your answer is to my question about Heb 10:26 regarding those who sin willfully

Well reading the whole chapter and putting in context with the rest of the New Testament it sounds like he's saying that there are no more acceptable animal sacrifices and then goes on to talk about judging others for breaking the law. So in short if you haven't accepted Jesus as your savior then if you sin there is nothing to cover that sin. I know you said that sin means obeying the commandments, but would you mind showing me one commandment that God would approve of you breaking. I mean a commandment that we are responsible for, we aren't responsible for commandments that involve sacrifice or judgment because these have been handed over to our Lord. He is our sacrifice and as our High Priest He is also the judge.

 

[Barny]

So in short if you haven't accepted Jesus as your savior then if you sin there is nothing to cover that sin. I know you said that sin means obeying the commandments, but would you mind showing me one commandment that God would approve of you breaking. I mean a commandment that we are responsible for, we aren't responsible for commandments that involve sacrifice or judgment because these have been handed over to our Lord. He is our sacrifice and as our High Priest He is also the judge.

You said, regarding Heb 10:26, that "in short if you haven't accepted Jesus as your savior then if you sin there is nothing to cover that sin" .
That's getting close.

First we need to define the "sin" Heb 10:26 speaks of. It's "transgression of the law", 1John 3:4
And how do we sin/transgress the law?
Firstly, we need to be under the law.
Remember Rom 3:19
"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

The law requires perfect obedience, James 2:10
So if someone willfully chooses to be under the law they will fail the perfect obedience it requires, which is "sin".
Gal 2:18 even warns Christians not to turn back to the law which would only result in them being sinners.
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (justification by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor (Sinner).
And remember the wages of sin is death.

So Heb 10:26 refers to those who willfully sin (that is they choose to be under the law and thus make themselves a sinner, Gal 2:18 ). Such people have the knowledge of the truth, the gospel of Christ, but deny him and seek self-righteousness instead. Such people face judgement and fiery indignation. Such people are sinners.

Regarding the commandments that we keep, consider 1John 3:22,23.
And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.


These are the new commandments Jesus gave us under the new testament.

 

[fhnl13f]

Well that is good news, because it is really hard to be honest sometimes and now I don't need to worry about it anymore because sin doesn't exist. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I actually feel better now. That will make getting people saved a whole lot easier, because before I told them that if they were living a life for God that there would be a lot of persecution. Now there won't be any persecution because all you have to do is love people and you can live how ever you want just throw some change at the poor people every now and then.

I was an alcoholic in the military 5 years ago and left because I wanted to be a missionary, but I guess I could have stayed. I know I'm being facetious, I don't mean any disrespect by it but I'm just trying to play your argument out and see how it sounds. So can I lie all I want or not?

Something just occurred to me that I would like to know your thoughts on. Acts 10 talks about Peters vision. This being quite a bit of time after Jesus ascended why is it that he hadn't eaten any unclean thing, why did he refuse to, and as far as we know he never ate any unclean animal. Would you accuse Peter the most beloved of the 12 who was in the upper room and filled by the Holy Spirit of being under the law? Why is Paul still keeping feasts if observing one part of the law makes you accountable for all of it? Why does Paul still keep the law of the vow by shaving his head? They tell early converts to stay away from blood, things strangled just for starters, but to get the rest of the Word they could go to any synagogue on the Sabbath? Why tell them to stay away from anything if they can just do what they want? And why is it important for them to hear the Word of Moses if the entire Old Testament is based on the Law?

 

[papajim]

Barny you misunderstand me,
I know that God's gift is perfect and we have the perfect righteousness of God in Christ, and I agree with what you have said. The problem is not in the gift but in our faith. I'm saying that our actions are a product of our faith not the other way around.
When I say tha sanctification is a process of change coming from within it is Christ Jesus that is within.

I want to say more on this but I am out of time right now and will continue later.

 

[Barny]

Well that is good news, because it is really hard to be honest sometimes and now I don't need to worry about it anymore because sin doesn't exist. Thanks for clearing that up for me. I actually feel better now. That will make getting people saved a whole lot easier, because before I told them that if they were living a life for God that there would be a lot of persecution. Now there won't be any persecution because all you have to do is love people and you can live how ever you want just throw some change at the poor people every now and then.

I was an alcoholic in the military 5 years ago and left because I wanted to be a missionary, but I guess I could have stayed. I know I'm being facetious, I don't mean any disrespect by it but I'm just trying to play your argument out and see how it sounds. So can I lie all I want or not?

Why would you want to lie when your trust is in God and you love others so that you don't want to do anything bad against them?
And even if you did give in to temptation and lie or steal or commit physical adultery, you do not face condemnation and death in Christ. You will not profit by doing these wrongs and you'll find God will discipline you too.

But if your under the law you do face condemnation and death even for just one offense. Anyone under the law is without Christ and seeking to establish their own righteousness.

Something just occurred to me that I would like to know your thoughts on. Acts 10 talks about Peters vision. This being quite a bit of time after Jesus ascended why is it that he hadn't eaten any unclean thing, why did he refuse to, and as far as we know he never ate any unclean animal. Would you accuse Peter the most beloved of the 12 who was in the upper room and filled by the Holy Spirit of being under the law? Why is Paul still keeping feasts if observing one part of the law makes you accountable for all of it? Why does Paul still keep the law of the vow by shaving his head? They tell early converts to stay away from blood, things strangled just for starters, but to get the rest of the Word they could go to any synagogue on the Sabbath? Why tell them to stay away from anything if they can just do what they want? And why is it important for them to hear the Word of Moses if the entire Old Testament is based on the Law?

Regarding Peter eating no unclean thing, I think you have missed the point of that dream. The unclean thing was referring to the Gentiles that God had cleansed of sin. Peter acknowledged that God's message to him was that he should not call anyone unclean.
Acts 10:28
Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

And yes, scripture does say to stay away from blood and things strangled.
Act 15:29
That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well.

But this instruction is about do not be under the law.
1Cor 10:18-21
Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Here we see the physical Jew being referred to as Gentiles sacrificing to devils. And if you join them under the law partaking of these sacrifices, then you are joining in with them sacrificing to devils.
And the fornication it refers to here is the spiritual fornication with Hagar/the law, which I spoke about earlier.

 

[fhnl13f]

Why would you want to lie when your trust is in God and you love others so that you don't want to do anything bad against them?

Who says lying is bad? And I agree it doesn't bring you to condemnation, and I agree that God will discipline you for it. But why is it bad? Is there a standard that you're not telling me about?

Regarding Peter eating no unclean thing, I think you have missed the point of that dream.

I know what the vision is referring to but you miss my point, why did Peter refuse? He is filled with the Holy Spirit and knows the truth, why would he refuse to do something that the Lord is telling him to do and be so adamant about it? Wouldn't that put him under the law by your definition? And why would the Lord use a vision of unclean animals to teach a lesson if there is no such thing?

My last point. What is Jesus doing right now? Is He not in heaven fulfilling the role of High Priest? The role of High Priest is in the law. According to the Law the High Priest can only marry a virgin, and according to the New Testament Jesus will only accept a pure bride. Why? Is Jesus still fulfilling the Law carrying on the duties of High Priest for us? According to Revelations the elders are still performing the duties of Law bringing our prayers before the Ark. John eating the book in Revelations is a picture of the Jealousy Ritual in Num 5:12-31 in the Law. The trumpets are blown according to the Law, The seals are opened according to the Law. Everything in heaven is fulfilling the Law but not us, Why?

I hope that I'm getting my point across clearly.

 

[fhnl13f]

Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

I agree that this is the definition of fornication in the bible. It says what ever the Gentiles sacrifice is to devils, because they were all pagan cultures. This has nothing to do with being under the law but gentiles worshiping idols and Israel partaking in meat that the gentiles sacrificed to idols.

 

[DHC]

Hello barny, what a powerful line this is;

But if your under the law you do face condemnation and death even for just one offense.
Anyone under the law is without Christ and seeking to establish their own righteousness.

As a Christian or non Christian any attempt at self righteousness achieved by adherence to any or
all laws of God or Moses is a work of the flesh.

At its heart, obedience to the law shouts I can do it, I can by careful observance perfect the flesh.

Personal justification and sanctification is what the law offers?

Christ and the law is justification plus my own sanctification thrown in for good measure.

Galatians 3

1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?

2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
(Attempting to obey the Gospel of Christ plus the law)

4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles
among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

The Galatians began in the Spirit but were now also attempting to abide
by the law. They thought that could add obedience to the law to the cross of
Christ! Paul pulls no punches, "Are you so foolish".