Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

SignUp Now!
  • Welcome to Talk Jesus Christian Forums

    Celebrating 20 Years!

    A bible based, Jesus Christ centered community.

    Register Log In

The 2 Baptisms

EphremHagos

Member
Joined
Oct 12, 2009
Messages
245
The following introduction focuses on the mutually exclusive differences between the two baptisms, viz.: baptism with water by John and baptism with the Holy Spirit by Jesus Christ, as summarized by the Apostle Paul. (Acts 19: 2-6)

The latter is characterized by “speaking in strange tongues" signifying a radical change in man's very being and way of thinking by the power of "God's message": self-sufficiently defined in a moment of truth demonstrated perpetuallyon Christ's death on the cross in terms of verifiably Spirit-active, perfect and diacritical death with eternally multiplying effects, a.k.a., a holy subject which cannot be even approached without taking off one’s typical self-reliance and allprior misconceptions. (Matt. 16: 22-23)

That is why Jesus Christ said, “It is written in your own Law that God said, ‘You are gods’. We know that what the scripture says is true for ever; and God called those people gods, the people to whom his message was given.” (John 10: 34-35)

John testified, “I baptize you with water to show that you have repented but the one who will come after me will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. He is much greater than I am; and I am not good enough even to carry his sandals. He has his winnowing shovel with him to thresh out all the grain. He will gather his wheat into his barn, but he will burn the chaff in a fire that never goes out.” (Matt. 3: 11-12)

The Good News from the Glorious and Blessed God is about the continuing work of the Holy Spirit exclusively out-sourced from Christ’s death on the cross, a.k.a., the “tree of life”.

The history of man’s disobedience and God's judgment, which can be traced unmistakably from the beginning (Gen. 3) all the way to the very end in Christ’s death on the cross, places the whole world on overdue Notice! (John 3; 19: 30-37; Rev. 5)

Any comments?
 
Water baptism did not appear on the scene of the Old Covenant until quite close to its fulfillment. It was consider to symbolize a new proselyte's conversion from one from paganism to Judaism, or one covenant to another. There was no prior history of this act in any of the Law. So water baptism is symbolic (for the new Christian) of being baptized both into death with Jesus and into resurrection life with Jesus, and passing from the covenant of the Law into the new and better covenant written in the blood of the Lamb .
As far as the baptism of fire, it is generally consider to the the trying, testing, and purification that a believer experiences. This is allowed, and used by God to reveal more of His very nature in that vessel.
As far as the baptism on the Holy Spirit, it is easiest to understand in its simplest form: to be immersed in until every fiber of one's being is saturated
Pastor Frank Bailey gave a good illustration upon this, it went something similar to this:
If one takes a cucumber and immerses it into a Pickling jar and allows it to saturate it emerges as something completely different. It still has the outward form of that cucumber and yet its flavor, its texture, and its taste have been completely changed so that it reflects that which it has been saturated in.
This analogy is quite effective in describing a man's life- what he soaks in is going to be reflected in his actions and personality.
If one is immersed in the world he will bear the flavor of, and reflect the life of the world.
If that one is immersed in the Spirit of the Living God then the life of that heavenly Vine will permeate and affect all he touches; this is (or should be) a continual process.
Even the disciples in the upper room on the day of Pentecost (the out pouring of the Spirit of God and the birth of the church) were recorded as being filled multiple times. This was perfectly demonstrated to prevent the doctrinal error some adhere to today: that error being that once one receives Christ he is filled and needs be filled no more.
The life of the believer should be one of constant abiding in the Vine of Christ, that the beautiful Holy Spirit would constantly flow into him (or her) and that one's life would simply be a reflection of that infilling bearing the 9 fruits of the Spirit, and moving in (as he is gifted) the gifts of the Spirit. This is Christ touching the world through man and the work of no man's flesh
If a man is filled with (continually), and saturated in the presence of the Holy Spirit then his flavor, his lifestyle. his fruit is going to reflect the nature of the One who fills His life. This is the work of no man but is instead Christ touching the world through His church.
Get filled, stay in His presence, and stay filled; saturated to the point until you overflow the fragrance of heaven on all around you my friend.
 
I agree with Boanerges comments. I would also like to add something else:

There are three baptisms: Water, Spirit, Fire.

Some believers yield 30 fold, some 60 fold, some 100 fold in terms of bearing fruit for the Lord.

There are the called, chosen, and there are the faithful (the faithful are all three).
 
I regret to say that all your symbolisms in water baptism, baptism of fire and baptism with the Holy Spirit are according Christian tradition and theology but not at all exclusively based on the Scriptures.
<o:p> </o:p>
Therefore, they are questionable!

<o:p> </o:p>


Water baptism did not appear on the scene of the Old Covenant until quite close to its fulfillment. It was consider to symbolize a new proselyte's conversion from one from paganism to Judaism, or one covenant to another. There was no prior history of this act in any of the Law. So water baptism is symbolic (for the new Christian) of being baptized both into death with Jesus and into resurrection life with Jesus, and passing from the covenant of the Law into the new and better covenant written in the blood of the Lamb .
As far as the baptism of fire, it is generally consider to the the trying, testing, and purification that a believer experiences. This is allowed, and used by God to reveal more of His very nature in that vessel.
As far as the baptism on the Holy Spirit, it is easiest to understand in its simplest form: to be immersed in until every fiber of one's being is saturated
Pastor Frank Bailey gave a good illustration upon this, it went something similar to this:
If one takes a cucumber and immerses it into a Pickling jar and allows it to saturate it emerges as something completely different. It still has the outward form of that cucumber and yet its flavor, its texture, and its taste have been completely changed so that it reflects that which it has been saturated in.
This analogy is quite effective in describing a man's life- what he soaks in is going to be reflected in his actions and personality.
If one is immersed in the world he will bear the flavor of, and reflect the life of the world.
If that one is immersed in the Spirit of the Living God then the life of that heavenly Vine will permeate and affect all he touches; this is (or should be) a continual process.
Even the disciples in the upper room on the day of Pentecost (the out pouring of the Spirit of God and the birth of the church) were recorded as being filled multiple times. This was perfectly demonstrated to prevent the doctrinal error some adhere to today: that error being that once one receives Christ he is filled and needs be filled no more.
The life of the believer should be one of constant abiding in the Vine of Christ, that the beautiful Holy Spirit would constantly flow into him (or her) and that one's life would simply be a reflection of that infilling bearing the 9 fruits of the Spirit, and moving in (as he is gifted) the gifts of the Spirit. This is Christ touching the world through man and the work of no man's flesh
If a man is filled with (continually), and saturated in the presence of the Holy Spirit then his flavor, his lifestyle. his fruit is going to reflect the nature of the One who fills His life. This is the work of no man but is instead Christ touching the world through His church.
Get filled, stay in His presence, and stay filled; saturated to the point until you overflow the fragrance of heaven on all around you my friend.
 
Just curious here. What is the difference between fire and Holy Spirit?

Matt 3:11; Luke 3:16
 
Last edited:
Is confession required?
Matt 3:6 and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, as they confessed their sins.
Mark 1:5 And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.

Is repentance required?
Acts 2:38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 19:4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
Mat 3:11 "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Mark 1:4 John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.
Luke 3:3 And he came into all the district around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins;

I'm afraid to ask, I know this is controversial, but is water baptism required? (I was baptized)
Mark 16:16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
Acts 22:16 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


I am curious, what was this baptism Jesus was speaking of?
Mark 10:38 But Jesus said to them, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I drink, or to be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized?"
Mark 10:39 They said to Him, "We are able." And Jesus said to them, "The cup that I drink you shall drink; and you shall be baptized with the baptism with which I am baptized.
 
Last edited:
As far as the baptism of fire, it is generally consider to the the trying, testing, and purification that a believer experiences. This is allowed, and used by God to reveal more of His very nature in that vessel.

Thanks, I missed this the first time through.
 
<style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Times; panose-1:2 0 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:3 0 0 0 1 0;} @font-face {font-family:Cambria; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:3 0 0 0 1 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Cambria; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} p {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family:Times; mso-fareast-font-family:Cambria; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Times; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";} span.verse {mso-style-name:verse;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> Matthew 3:11-12
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat(believers) into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The baptism of fire will burn the chaff(unbelievers)


 
<style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:Times; panose-1:2 0 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:3 0 0 0 1 0;} @font-face {font-family:Cambria; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:3 0 0 0 1 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:Cambria; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} p {margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ascii-font-family:Times; mso-fareast-font-family:Cambria; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-hansi-font-family:Times; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";} span.verse {mso-style-name:verse;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style> Matthew 3:11-12
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat(believers) into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

The baptism of fire will burn the chaff(unbelievers)

Consider the Book of Daniel. I believe what happened to Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego is a clear indication of the kind of fiery baptism which will come upon all who follow our Lord and forsake the world. The world will persecute you, but Jesus will be there with you to help you every step of the way. As we go through these "fires" we become purified and we grow stronger in the Lord in sanctification.

Isaiah 48
10 Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver;
I have tried you in the furnace of affliction.
11 For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it,
for how should my name be profaned?
My glory I will not give to another.

1 Peter 4
12 Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice insofar as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when his glory is revealed.14 If you are insulted for the name of Christ, you are blessed, because the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you.
 
Reminds me of some recent verses.

Mal 3:2 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.
Mal 3:3 "He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness.
 
Reminds me of some recent verses.

Mal 3:2 "But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner's fire and like fullers' soap.
Mal 3:3 "He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the LORD offerings in righteousness.

God will kill all the Jews that reject him at the day of the Lord.

Isaiah 4:2-4
2 In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion, and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy, even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

Zechariah 13:8-9
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

God's judgment of Israel by fire will kill 2/3 of them.
 
Last edited:
Thank you for a beautiful question which is instructive.

If I may venture a bold answer, one (self-sufficient "fire" ): manifested in complete independence of matter is the external manifestation of the other ("Holy Spirit", a.k.a., God's life-giving Spirit), e.g., "the burning bush" (Ex. 3: 1-15) and "tongues of fire" which spread out and touched each believer gathered (Acts 2: 3-4).

What do you think?

Just curious here. What is the difference between fire and Holy Spirit?

Matt 3:11; Luke 3:16
 
Back
Top