Should Christians own weapons?

[brakelite]

Came across this today which I though was very pertinaent to our discussion:

Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings in Littleton, Colorado, was invited to address the House Judiciary Committee’s subcommittee on May 27, 1999. What he said to our national leaders during this special session of Congress was painfully truthful. <cite>Keyword: darrellscott</cite>
These courageous words spoken by Darrell Scott are powerful, penetrating. moving and deeply personal—like a man crying in the wilderness. The following is a portion of the transcript:

“Since the dawn of creation there has been both good & evil in the hearts of men and women. We all contain the seeds of kindness or the seeds of violence. The death of my wonderful daughter, Rachel Joy Scott, and the deaths of that heroic teacher, and the other eleven children who died must not be in vain. Their blood cries out for answers. ​

“The first recorded act of violence was when Cain slew his brother Abel out in the field. The villain was not the club he used. . . . The true killer was Cain, and the reason for the murder could only be found in Cain’s heart. ​

“In the days that followed the Columbine tragedy, I was amazed at how quickly fingers began to be pointed at groups such as the NRA. I am not a member of the NRA. I am not a hunter. I do not even own a gun. I am not here to represent or defend the NRA – because I don’t believe that they are responsible for my daughter’s death. Therefore I do not believe that they need to be defended. If I believed they had anything to do with Rachel’s murder I would be their strongest opponent. ​

“I am here today to declare that Columbine was not just a tragedy — it was a spiritual event that should be forcing us to look at where the real blame lies! Much of the blame lies here in this room. Much of the blame lies behind the pointing fingers of the accusers themselves. I wrote a poem just four nights ago that expresses my feelings best. ​

“Your laws ignore our deepest needs,
Your words are empty air.
You’ve stripped away our heritage,
You’ve outlawed simple prayer.
Now gunshots fill our classrooms,
And precious children die.
You seek for answers everywhere,
And ask the question “Why?”
You regulate restrictive laws,
Through legislative creed.
And yet you fail to understand,
That God is what we need! ​

“Men and women are three-part beings. We all consist of body, mind, and spirit. When we refuse to acknowledge a third part of our make-up, we create a void that allows evil, prejudice, and hatred to rush in and wreak havoc. Spiritual presences were present within our educational systems for most of our nation’s history. Many of our major colleges began as theological seminaries. This is a historical fact. What has happened to us as a nation? We have refused to honor God, and in so doing, we open the doors to hatred and violence. And when something as terrible as Columbine’s tragedy occurs — politicians immediately look for a scapegoat such as the NRA. They immediately seek to pass more restrictive laws that contribute to erode away our personal and private liberties. We do not need more restrictive laws. Eric and Dylan would not have been stopped by metal detectors. No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts. ​

“As my son Craig lay under that table in the school library and saw his two friends murdered before his very eyes, he did not hesitate to pray in school. I defy any law or politician to deny him that right! I challenge every young person in America , and around the world, to realize that on April 20, 1999, at Columbine High School prayer was brought back to our schools. Do not let the many prayers offered by those students be in vain. Dare to move into the new millennium with a sacred disregard for legislation that violates your God-given right to communicate with Him. To those of you who would point your finger at the NRA — I give to you a sincere challenge.. Dare to examine your own heart before casting the first stone!​

“My daughter’s death will not be in vain! The young people of this country will not allow that to happen!”<cite>GreenfieldNOW - Local news, sports, business, jobs, and community events › Blogs › Community Blogs</cite>​

<cite>Many are the ways that evil expresses itself! When self is king, no home, community or nation is safe from anger, horror, greed, duplicity, and you can finish the list! When self refuses to listen to “God's voice within” (conscience) and seeks satisfaction in true-to-life TV drama saturated in sex and violence or in drugs or alcohol--no home, school, or nation is safe, not for a moment. Of course, I am only repeating the obvious!</cite>​

<cite>O Noah, it must have been painful, listening to the jeering—but you never stopped pounding nails and explaining it all to your children and whoever else would listen!</cite>​

 

[howard]

John 2:15 And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables;

He did not kill or wound anyone.

how would that look if the God who supposedly loves everyone would have killed or wounded a man while he walked in the flesh

 

[howard]

And do we need to discuss it? Are not followers of Jesus to have weapons which are not made of steel to combat the enemy which attacks on the inside of a man rather than on the outside? Does any believer doubt that?

It sounds like you want to discuss it and you want others to be drawn in, but for what purpose? Is your purpose one which is likely to be edifying to a follower of the Lord?

You don't have to participate? You don't Know who it will edify? You may learn something

 

[howard]

The Lord said vengeance belongs to him and not man

Psalm 94:1 (KJV)
O Lord God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself.

Do a servant of God need a weapon now?

Jesus has taken the need for one out of our hands!

 

[howard]

Isaiah 61:2 (KJV)
To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord , and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Those that lost love ones The Lord will take vengeance and when he does he will not meet the perpetrator as a man

Isaiah 47:3 (KJV)
Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet thee as a man.

Romans 12:19 (KJV)
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

 

[amadeus2]

[quote[Originally Posted by amadeus2And do we need to discuss it? Are not followers of Jesus to have weapons which are not made of steel to combat the enemy which attacks on the inside of a man rather than on the outside? Does any believer doubt that?

It sounds like you want to discuss it and you want others to be drawn in, but for what purpose? Is your purpose one which is likely to be edifying to a follower of the Lord?[/quote]

Howard: You don't have to participate? You don't Know who it will edify? You may learn something

.

Well I am still here my friend, at least, reading what you and others have written. You didn't really answer my question... or you answered it by asking a couple of questions yourself. But... that's OK. I am not saying you are wrong to discuss it. I was interested in here a more specific answer, but again that's OK. Give God the glory!<!-- google_ad_section_end -->

 

[howard]

Servants of God has weapons provided by God

Ephesians 6:11,13-18 (KJV)
Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

[13] Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

[14] Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

[15] And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

[16] Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

[17] And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

[18] Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

 

[howard]

[quote[Originally Posted by amadeus2And do we need to discuss it? Are not followers of Jesus to have weapons which are not made of steel to combat the enemy which attacks on the inside of a man rather than on the outside? Does any believer doubt that?

It sounds like you want to discuss it and you want others to be drawn in, but for what purpose? Is your purpose one which is likely to be edifying to a follower of the Lord?

.

Well I am still here my friend, at least, reading what you and others have written. You didn't really answer my question... or you answered it by asking a couple of questions yourself. But... that's OK. I am not saying you are wrong to discuss it. I was interested in here a more specific answer, but again that's OK. Give God the glory!<!-- google_ad_section_end -->[/QUOTE]

i glad you are here and before this thread is done Jesus will have ALL the glory!

 

[howard]

Servant of God are well strapped, there sword is a two edged sword and it is the word of God

Ephesians 6:17 (KJV)
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

 

[howard]

Ephesians 6:12 (KJV)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places .

The fight is not against flesh and blood, the fight is not with a gun or weapon the fight is spiritual

 

[howard]

Amos 3:5-6 (KJV)
Can a bird fall in a snare upon the earth, where no gin is for him? shall one take up a snare from the earth, and have taken nothing at all? [6] Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it ?

can evil come into your city or at you without The Lord bringing it?

Why would you need to protect yourself of you are servant of God?
evil cannot come your way unless The Lord bring it

Isaiah 45:6-7 (KJV)
That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord , and there is none else. [7] I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things .

Jesus created evil

so who would a weapon owner be fighting against?
The person in front of him or the one who created him?

The Example is Job

listen to the conversation going on between God and satan concerning the servant of God Job

Job 1:7-12 (KJV)
And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord , and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. [8] And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? [9] Then Satan answered the Lord , and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? [10] Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. [11] But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. [12] And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord .

The Lord lets satan come at Job

Now lets read what satan did to Job

Job 1:13-15 (KJV)
And there was a day when his sons and his daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: [14] And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them: [15] And the Sabeans fell upon them , and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Job did not go get his glock nor sword

 

[howard]

Job 1:16-19 (KJV)
While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. [17] While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee. [18] While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house: [19] And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.

Job family was taken out

What did Job do?

go get his gun? No,
How about his sword? No
Call the police? No
go get the militia, patriots, NRA,? No

Lets read what Job the servant of God did.,

Job 1:20-22 (KJV)
Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, [21] And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord . [22] In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

Job prayed to The Lord!

Before The Lord allowed satan to come after Job? What protected Job before then? We have To ask ourselves this also.

Job 1:9-10 (KJV)
Then Satan answered the Lord , and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? [10] Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

Job had hedges around him, his family and his property

What are the hedges that Job had around him?

Psalm 34:6-7 (KJV)
This poor man cried, and the Lord heard him , and saved him out of all his troubles. [7] The angel of the Lord encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.

The holy angels

these angels we are to have around us also. No harm shall come to thee

Psalm 91:10-12 (KJV)
There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. [11] For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. [12] They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.

 

[Barabbas]

Howard,
You continually ignore the question of our brothers enduring genocide in many lands around the world.
You mention the armor of God, literal is it?

You ignore the fact that we are allowed to defend ourselves, and there is no prohibition in the NT against Christians possessing, or using weapons.

As a matter of fact Christians are allowed to be in the military, and protect their country, another thing you ignore.

We have asked repeatedly for any evidence of a prohibition, you have ignore the request.

Cause, let's face it, ya got nothin'.

This is merely a soapbox for you to rail against what you have already admitted to is a pet theology of yours.

You wish not to defend yourself, or your family so be it. But don't stand there, and give us the "Thus sayeth the LORD" schtick...cause it don't pass the smell test at all.

 

[Chad]

Why would you need to protect yourself of you are servant of God?
evil cannot come your way unless The Lord bring it

Please back that up with Scriptural example that shows we can just sit around and do nothing when the "Lord brings evil". Did you forget about human free will?

 

[B-A-C]

I am reminded of a secular documentary I saw on television a few years ago. A group of 'Christians' living in the mountains of Kentucky and Tennessee routinely gather up a
large number of rattlesnakes and put them in cages. Then they take people's hand and arms (even their own children) and stir up the snakes so that inevitably they are bitten.

One of the leaders of the group said something like this. If they don't die, they are living righteously. If they die, they obviously either didn't have enough faith or else they
had un-confessed sin in their lives. Apparently there for a while several people were dying every year. The state moved in several years ago is tried to break up the group.
I haven't heard anything else about them since then.

I wonder if this qualifies as testing God?

Mat 4:6 and *said to Him, "If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down; for it is written, 'HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU'; and 'ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.'"
Mat 4:7 Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, 'YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.'"

Luke 4:10 for it is written, 'HE WILL COMMAND HIS ANGELS CONCERNING YOU TO GUARD YOU,'
Luke 4:11 and, 'ON their HANDS THEY WILL BEAR YOU UP, SO THAT YOU WILL NOT STRIKE YOUR FOOT AGAINST A STONE.'"
Luke 4:12 And Jesus answered and said to him, "It is said, 'YOU SHALL NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.'"

A common quoted 'Christianism' (is that a real word?) "God helps those who help themselves".
So far, I haven't been able to find that verse in the Bible, what I have found is more like God helps those who CAN NOT help themselves.

Obviously we shouldn't go looking for trouble, but if you are a soldier, or a law enforcement officer, or a hunter with a weapon handy, I don't think if you use it, he is going to say "why didn't you trust me". What if the 'bad guy' also has a weapon? If you defeat him, was it not God that helped you?

Is being a soldier (like David, Barak, Jephthah the Gileadite, Jeroboam, Naaman, captain of the army of the king of Aram, Eliada, etc.... ) a sin?
Is being a law enforcement officer a sin? (It seem most of the law enforcement of Jesus' time were Roman soldiers)
But in a way, Jesus himself was a law enforcement officer at least once. ( John 2:14-17 )
Is being a hunter (like Nimrod, Esau, David, etc...) a sin?
If being a hunter is a sin, then is being a fisherman a sin? (Are a gig, spear, speargun, trident, pole and hook, weapons?)

 

[B-A-C]

Jdg 5:26 "She reached out her hand for the tent peg, And her right hand for the workmen's hammer. Then she struck Sisera, she smashed his head; And she shattered and pierced his temple.
Jdg 5:27 "Between her feet he bowed, he fell, he lay; Between her feet he bowed, he fell; Where he bowed, there he fell dead.

It looks like a hammer was used as a weapon here.
In Mark 6:3 it says Jesus was a carpenter. I wonder if he had a hammer?

 

[Eddy Fire]

question: should christians own weapons
answer: no

 

[HisFollower]

For me it is evident that no of course not. For we cannot seek to be justified by Christ, and yet be found preparing to render evil for evil, or preparing to overcome evil with evil, or preparing to resist evil. For God's Word tells us plainly not to render evil for evil; and to overcome evil with good, not evil; and to resist not evil, not to resist it. We cannot have it both ways: either the Lord Jesus Christ is right when He tells us "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye; But I say unto you that ye resist not evil" or else the wisdom of this world is right in saying "We will resist not evil until we will resist evil". The Lord Jesus even tells us that most will think that the Old is better, saying "No man having drunk old wine immediately desires the new, for he says, the old is better". It is our worldly scholastic achievement of reasoning and rationalizing that deceives us into concluding that we may resist evil to the extent that we can bear, but then we may resist evil: sorry but Christ never tells us this, that is us saying it. Again, either He is Lord or else we are, but not both.

 

[howard]

Please back that up with Scriptural example that shows we can just sit around and do nothing when the "Lord brings evil". Did you forget about human free will?

I did back it up

Ephesians 6:18 (KJV)
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Here is another where The Lord told us in his prayer we are to pray to be delivered from evil


Matthew 6:9-13 (KJV)
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. [10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. [11] Give us this day our daily bread. [12] And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. [13] And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

I put where Job prayed after all the evil came upon him

Job 1:20-22 (KJV)
Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, [21] And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord . [22] In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

 

[howard]

Howard,
You continually ignore the question of our brothers enduring genocide in many lands around the world.
You mention the armor of God, literal is it?

You ignore the fact that we are allowed to defend ourselves, and there is no prohibition in the NT against Christians possessing, or using weapons.

As a matter of fact Christians are allowed to be in the military, and protect their country, another thing you ignore.

We have asked repeatedly for any evidence of a prohibition, you have ignore the request.

Cause, let's face it, ya got nothin'.

This is merely a soapbox for you to rail against what you have already admitted to is a pet theology of yours.

You wish not to defend yourself, or your family so be it. But don't stand there, and give us the "Thus sayeth the LORD" schtick...cause it don't pass the smell test at all.

Where did God tell you defend yourself and be in the military?

What I read in the OT and NT is this
Romans 12:19 (KJV)
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

Psalm 94:1 (KJV)
O Lord God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself.