Hello TomL.
I never said God is guilty of murder?
I did say "The underlying fact about God
is that He is Love. God's love is eternal and
unconditional."
Mankind is at fault not God!
Loosing faith in Christ.
- Thread starter kevin256
- Start date
Hello TomL.
I never said God is guilty of murder?
I did say "The underlying fact about God
is that He is Love. God's love is eternal and
unconditional."
Mankind is at fault not God!
With all due respect, Chad, my knowledge of God is not extremely limited and I understand Kevin perfectly. There are many things I understand. I understand the wrath of God which is always deserved by the recipients of God's wrath. The struggles we all go through on a daily basis are understandable. But what happened to Jessica Ridgeway and to abused and murdered girls throughout the world is different. Instead of trying to explain it away we as Christians should come together and do something about it. There is a saying, "Evil triumphs when good men do nothing." But, where are the Christians? Christians are on boards like this just explaining things in a way that makes no sense. The mantra that "All things work for good," doesn't make sense in this case. And, quite frankly, I think it's a cop-out for people that are comfortable in their own lives that they can't be bothered with the lives of others. But we should not only be interested in our own lives but also the interest of others.
Are we just to stand by and do nothing while the next little girl gets slaughtered? What is it going to take for Christians to wake up? The next little girl that gets slaughtered could be someone in your family.
You also said, "No event may occur unless God permits it to occur.
Even your thought life is subject to God's control."
I understand that to mean that God is responsible for everything that happens. Therefore God is responsible for every murder that occurs. Who ever killed Jessica Ridgeway had God's permission. Isn't that what you are saying?
Hello TomL.
You stated;
I understand that to mean that God is responsible for everything that happens.
Therefore God is responsible for every murder that occurs.
Who ever killed Jessica Ridgeway had God's permission.
Isn't that what you are saying?
Human sin is not God's will, evil does not originate in God.
Evil is manifested in the rejection of Love and Truth, God
Himself.
Although God limits the thoughts of mankind, God does not
instigate evil thought or action. That would be a paradox for
God is pure, holy, and loving.
We have the ability to think but this cognitive ability is only
within the realm that God ordained it to be. Our ability to
commit evil is restrained some what by the sheer limitations
inbuilt into the creation.
God does not murder, God sacrificed Himself for us because
we murder, lie, steal, etc.
God did not grant the murderer permission to kill, but God
will certainly punish this person for this reprehensible crime.
I hope that I did not confuse anyone else.
You stated;
I understand that to mean that God is responsible for everything that happens.
Therefore God is responsible for every murder that occurs.
Who ever killed Jessica Ridgeway had God's permission.
Isn't that what you are saying?
Human sin is not God's will, evil does not originate in God.
Evil is manifested in the rejection of Love and Truth, God
Himself.
Although God limits the thoughts of mankind, God does not
instigate evil thought or action. That would be a paradox for
God is pure, holy, and loving.
We have the ability to think but this cognitive ability is only
within the realm that God ordained it to be. Our ability to
commit evil is restrained some what by the sheer limitations
inbuilt into the creation.
God does not murder, God sacrificed Himself for us because
we murder, lie, steal, etc.
God did not grant the murderer permission to kill, but God
will certainly punish this person for this reprehensible crime.
I hope that I did not confuse anyone else.
Last edited:
Then what did you mean by, "No event may occur unless God permits it to occur.
Even your thought life is subject to God's control."
If this statement is true then sinful events cannot happen without God's permission. Isn't that so? Now you seem to back-peddling.
Of course that's true.But God works through people.And if we,instead of surrendering to Him and allowing Him to work in us and through us,deny Him access into our life are we not giving authority to the devil?God has all the power and authority but He will not violate our free will.
Jesus does not need human hands. I recently read a story where a man killed his wife and buried her, and their two little daughters he buried alive with his wife. After four days, the little girls were found alive. When asked how they survived, the oldest of the girls said that a bright man with blood coming out of his hands came and fed them everyday. And there are plenty of examples in the OT where God did override free will. Remember Jonah? God overrided his free will in a big way.
Thanks toml I appreciate the way you answer and do help me to understand, not all the way but its shifted my mind in a positive direction. Others get super offended when a christian calls out other Christians regarding these topics, we do need to step up. Thank you very much.
NetChaplain
Active
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2012
- Messages
- 1,490
God's blessings to you Kevin and please know that I do not want to seem insensitive by the use of Scripture in my reply because I believe if it cannot address the hardness we're to endure, nothing will.
All Christians are under the afflictions of the disheartening and confusing occurrences in this life and none of us respond the same, but if God allows such to occur, who am I to determine it shouldn't be so. Regardless of what a believer encounters in understanding, He uses everything to teach us to grow in loving Him with all our being. This involves putting our thoughts and feelings about this life after our thoughts and feeling for Him; which is performed by trusting Him always in "casting our cares on Him" (1 Pet 5:7). This allows us to put our love for Him above all things, esp. self and thus, we can "being still" (Psa 46:10) until He gives understanding.
If your faith is truly in God, nothing, including self can separate you from it and Him. It's interesting that you used the word "loose", which I want to contrast with "depart", because one can depart from the teaching of faith if faith is not attained through the teaching; but division from the faith of Christ can never truly be desired (Gal 5:17). There will come a time when "some shall depart from the faith" (1 Tim 4:1), that is, shall leave the teaching or doctrine of faith; which will be evidence they we're not in the faith, only exposed to its doctrine (1 John 2:19).
Please allow me to share something else with you and again, I hope doesn't seem unfeeling-like or attempting to convince you of anything:
"The doctrine of faith, notwithstanding, is indisputably the great "mystery of godliness" (1 Tim 3:16) and from the true grace of faith there can be no final and total apostasy, for that can never be lost. It is of an incorruptible nature and therefore "more precious than gold that perishes" (1 Pet 5:7).
“Christ is the author and finisher of our faith” which makes it our prevalent mediation and concern. It is a gift of special grace and is without repentance. It springs from electing grace and is secured by it and between that and salvation, there is an inseparable connection, even though it may be very low and lie dormant, as to its acts and exercise, but not lost.
There is a temporary faith and a persuasion of truth, or a mere assent to it, which may be departed from, but not that “faith which works by love” (Gal 5:6). A profession of faith, which being made, can be dropped by some or rather the doctrine of faith, which some would embrace can entirely quit and wholly apostatize from. The elect cannot be finally and totally deceived for the foundation of election stands sure amidst the greatest apostasy.“ -JG
This is not a persuasion but an encouragement, for all of us are to " Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves" (2 Cor 13:5).
All Christians are under the afflictions of the disheartening and confusing occurrences in this life and none of us respond the same, but if God allows such to occur, who am I to determine it shouldn't be so. Regardless of what a believer encounters in understanding, He uses everything to teach us to grow in loving Him with all our being. This involves putting our thoughts and feelings about this life after our thoughts and feeling for Him; which is performed by trusting Him always in "casting our cares on Him" (1 Pet 5:7). This allows us to put our love for Him above all things, esp. self and thus, we can "being still" (Psa 46:10) until He gives understanding.
If your faith is truly in God, nothing, including self can separate you from it and Him. It's interesting that you used the word "loose", which I want to contrast with "depart", because one can depart from the teaching of faith if faith is not attained through the teaching; but division from the faith of Christ can never truly be desired (Gal 5:17). There will come a time when "some shall depart from the faith" (1 Tim 4:1), that is, shall leave the teaching or doctrine of faith; which will be evidence they we're not in the faith, only exposed to its doctrine (1 John 2:19).
Please allow me to share something else with you and again, I hope doesn't seem unfeeling-like or attempting to convince you of anything:
"The doctrine of faith, notwithstanding, is indisputably the great "mystery of godliness" (1 Tim 3:16) and from the true grace of faith there can be no final and total apostasy, for that can never be lost. It is of an incorruptible nature and therefore "more precious than gold that perishes" (1 Pet 5:7).
“Christ is the author and finisher of our faith” which makes it our prevalent mediation and concern. It is a gift of special grace and is without repentance. It springs from electing grace and is secured by it and between that and salvation, there is an inseparable connection, even though it may be very low and lie dormant, as to its acts and exercise, but not lost.
There is a temporary faith and a persuasion of truth, or a mere assent to it, which may be departed from, but not that “faith which works by love” (Gal 5:6). A profession of faith, which being made, can be dropped by some or rather the doctrine of faith, which some would embrace can entirely quit and wholly apostatize from. The elect cannot be finally and totally deceived for the foundation of election stands sure amidst the greatest apostasy.“ -JG
This is not a persuasion but an encouragement, for all of us are to " Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves" (2 Cor 13:5).
Last edited:
Dovegiven
Active
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2012
- Messages
- 1,083
WHO is any human to question what God allows? Jesus knew concerning Judas Iscariot, yet said to him in Matthew 26:24-25 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. [25] Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.
So it was Jesus 'sent' Judas out to do his despicable thing. But.....you and I have access to being born again in spite of the apparent affect Judas might have on Jesus' ministry.
If I had heard and comprehended that conversation might have responded with "Lord, let me excuse myself to follow Judas and if he appears to aim to betray you, I should run a sword through his heart first". That's how flesh deals with tragedy even before it happens.
Jesus was our example as to the proper attitude towards what sinners keep doing. Always rise above sin. Jesus shed His blood to enable each of us to respond the way He responded to sin. Overcome sin.
Jim
So it was Jesus 'sent' Judas out to do his despicable thing. But.....you and I have access to being born again in spite of the apparent affect Judas might have on Jesus' ministry.
If I had heard and comprehended that conversation might have responded with "Lord, let me excuse myself to follow Judas and if he appears to aim to betray you, I should run a sword through his heart first". That's how flesh deals with tragedy even before it happens.
Jesus was our example as to the proper attitude towards what sinners keep doing. Always rise above sin. Jesus shed His blood to enable each of us to respond the way He responded to sin. Overcome sin.
Jim
Hello TomL.
Your reply was logical and follows;
Then what did you mean by, "No event may occur unless God permits it to occur.
Even your thought life is subject to God's control." If this statement is true then sinful
events cannot happen without God's permission. Isn't that so? Now you seem to back-peddling.
Romans 11:32
32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
If all people through history were subject to disobedience, then it obviously
follows that the thought life of each person is also subject to disobedience.
Then it would be impossible for mankind given the disposition towards
disobedience to ever know truth and God. Thus, human history would contain
a myriad of thought processes devoid of the ultimate truth.
Alas TomL, human history is precisely the absence of truth in its fullness.
So our thoughts are not free and seeking truth, rather our thoughts
are controlled by our sinful nature. Human history should be war, arguments,
and divisions, if this is true and what we find in history is this process.
Mankind will never know truth unless it is granted to mankind to know.
Mankind will only ever commit sin and think disobedient thoughts.
Our thought life is restricted to the domain that has been granted
without the intervention of God.
Your reply was logical and follows;
Then what did you mean by, "No event may occur unless God permits it to occur.
Even your thought life is subject to God's control." If this statement is true then sinful
events cannot happen without God's permission. Isn't that so? Now you seem to back-peddling.
Romans 11:32
32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
If all people through history were subject to disobedience, then it obviously
follows that the thought life of each person is also subject to disobedience.
Then it would be impossible for mankind given the disposition towards
disobedience to ever know truth and God. Thus, human history would contain
a myriad of thought processes devoid of the ultimate truth.
Alas TomL, human history is precisely the absence of truth in its fullness.
So our thoughts are not free and seeking truth, rather our thoughts
are controlled by our sinful nature. Human history should be war, arguments,
and divisions, if this is true and what we find in history is this process.
Mankind will never know truth unless it is granted to mankind to know.
Mankind will only ever commit sin and think disobedient thoughts.
Our thought life is restricted to the domain that has been granted
without the intervention of God.
Last edited:
You're welcome. That's what I'm here for.
Okay, that might be to short of an answer. So I have to mumble for a while. I read the rules. And quite frankly I think some of them are silly. My sites are not near as punitive. There, that should be long enough.
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2004
- Messages
- 17,081
If you have an issue with the forum rules, why did you bother to join then? You did agree to them upon registering. There's also a proper way to give feedback without being rude about it.
Hello Kevin, when I first came up against the biblical doctrine of election, I got so far off in the weeds for a while and God is still bringing me through that as time goes by. These same thoughts would arise. I'd also started wondering if everything i did was me or Him. It consumed my thoughts and I confess that I had bitter thoughts. Through all that time I learned a lot. I didnt learn the answer to questions like yours or mine but realized I came to a 'God's side of the fence' issue(election, forknowledge, etc) with a carnal mind or an earthly perspective. I was quite messed up but now am astounded at how He brought me through day by day. I had to realize that I dont know so many things and that the things I percieve as either good or evil could very well be completely backwards due to my fallen nature and deceptability of my heart.
Some of the biggest helps came by way of bible stories. There are a few where you get to see behind the scenes(God's side along with man's). In 1st Samuel 15 god tells saul to go kill the Amalekites. He said to kill everything including children and infants. That can be tough to stomach with a carnal mind. But God knew something we didnt. Saul didnt fulfill what God asked and later on in the book of esther, we read about how the jews were about to be wiped out by a decree. The person who came up with that decree was Haman, an amalekite.
When I wonder about all the babies aborted, or children who are murdered, I just realize they are now in heaven. Im not saying abortion is right since its wrong but had they actually grown up, how many do you think would have accepted Christ? This is what I think to myself now. I dont have an answer for you or me unfortunately. But I've learned that when I find myself blaming God, which I have before, I have to be wrong and just dont know what He knows or see what He sees. I understand this doesnt help someone in a storm but it's all I have along with prayer for you brother.
Some of the biggest helps came by way of bible stories. There are a few where you get to see behind the scenes(God's side along with man's). In 1st Samuel 15 god tells saul to go kill the Amalekites. He said to kill everything including children and infants. That can be tough to stomach with a carnal mind. But God knew something we didnt. Saul didnt fulfill what God asked and later on in the book of esther, we read about how the jews were about to be wiped out by a decree. The person who came up with that decree was Haman, an amalekite.
When I wonder about all the babies aborted, or children who are murdered, I just realize they are now in heaven. Im not saying abortion is right since its wrong but had they actually grown up, how many do you think would have accepted Christ? This is what I think to myself now. I dont have an answer for you or me unfortunately. But I've learned that when I find myself blaming God, which I have before, I have to be wrong and just dont know what He knows or see what He sees. I understand this doesnt help someone in a storm but it's all I have along with prayer for you brother.
Thiscrosshurts
Active
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2011
- Messages
- 1,630
God has taken the blame for this murder and every other foul thing on the earth that never entered his mind to do.
The "knowledge" of good and evil brought good and evil.
That's why he provided himself as a sacrifice.
Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Of course we sorrow over these events but our sorrow must eventually turn back to joy or we won't last long in this world.
Peace to all.
The "knowledge" of good and evil brought good and evil.
That's why he provided himself as a sacrifice.
Genesis 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Of course we sorrow over these events but our sorrow must eventually turn back to joy or we won't last long in this world.
Peace to all.
Last edited:
To Kevin, I've been where you are (spiritually), done that, got the severe anger and frustration to remember it by.
But now looking back, I can see that I thought that way because I was a baby Christian.
Baby Christians ("brephos" in Greek, such as referred to in 1 Peter 2:1-3) are Christians who hasn't spent enough time in the Scriptures for the Holy Spirit to grow their understanding and appreciation of God.
Because of this, as baby Christians, we doubt God whom we don't yet understand. We question the motives of God whom we have not yet trust fully, His sovereignty, and His promises. All because we have bits and pieces of information coming from man and books written by man.
The only way to grow out of this baby stage is to consume the Scriptures. But not trying to understand it with our own mind (because that will only lead to pride and conceit), then be patient as the Holy Spirit, our Great Teacher will use the consumed Scriptures to open our minds and hearts.
Put shortly, to understand God, we *must* grow out from being a baby, into maturity in Christ.
Even our Lord Jesus diligently spend His time in the Scriptures (the Jewish laws and the writings of the prophets) before he started his ministry at the age of 30, so must we.
But now looking back, I can see that I thought that way because I was a baby Christian.
Baby Christians ("brephos" in Greek, such as referred to in 1 Peter 2:1-3) are Christians who hasn't spent enough time in the Scriptures for the Holy Spirit to grow their understanding and appreciation of God.
Because of this, as baby Christians, we doubt God whom we don't yet understand. We question the motives of God whom we have not yet trust fully, His sovereignty, and His promises. All because we have bits and pieces of information coming from man and books written by man.
The only way to grow out of this baby stage is to consume the Scriptures. But not trying to understand it with our own mind (because that will only lead to pride and conceit), then be patient as the Holy Spirit, our Great Teacher will use the consumed Scriptures to open our minds and hearts.
Put shortly, to understand God, we *must* grow out from being a baby, into maturity in Christ.
Even our Lord Jesus diligently spend His time in the Scriptures (the Jewish laws and the writings of the prophets) before he started his ministry at the age of 30, so must we.
Last edited:
